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Old 09-04-2017, 10:58 PM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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Default #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of Questions

Howdy

So a couple of weeks ago I picked up my first #1, First Issue. I already had a 2nd and 3rd Issue, but did not yet have a First Issue. It turns out this one is a #1, First Issue, 5th Type. The Serial Number is 48XX.





Nothing really exciting, the silver plating is almost all gone, and the lockup is a bit loose, but a nice enough example. But now I have been reading in both Neal & Jinks and SCSW about all the different types of First Issues that were made. Who knew?

Being reasonably familiar with the 2nd and 3rd issues, as well as the #1 1/2 and #2, I was surprised to see the mechanism of this #1 First Issue was a bit different from them.

Never having closely examined a First Issue before, I was surprised to see the arrangement for rotating the cylinder. There is a dowel in the rotating recoil plate which engages a hole on the rear of the cylinder. Not as convenient for a quick reload as the more conventional ratchet teeth on the rear of the cylinder being engaged by the hand. It takes a bit of careful lineup to put the cylinder back in this little revolver correctly.









But here is where it gets interesting. Rather than the split spring under the bolt, actuated by the wedge shaped nub on the top of the hammer of the later models, the top of the hammer on this revolver pivots slightly. This photo shows the hammer the way it sits when the hammer is cocked. When cocking the hammer, the thumb rotates the upper part of the hammer up slightly, pushing the bolt up and freeing the cylinder to rotate. When the hammer falls, the upper part rotates down, passing by the bolt, allowing it to remain engaged in the cylinder.






So here are the questions: The upper part of the hammer on this little revolver has no spring. When the hammer is cocked, the upper part is free to flop up or down. Is this the way they were designed? Without anything to keep the upper part of the hammer in one position? Or is there perhaps a spring missing someplace?

Second question: There is a D and two circular marks stamped onto the grip frame. There are two matching circular marks stamped onto the right side of the hammer. Is there any significance to these marks?






Just to make things interesting the same day I found the S&W Tip Up, I found a Manhattan Tip Up too. I have not yet had a chance to ask Roy when the little #1 shipped, I have read that the Manhattan was probably made around 1861-1862.






The mechanism of the Manhattan for operating the bolt is similar to the split spring arrangement of a S&W Tip Up, but it is a bit different.

There is a spring protruding from the top of the hammer. There is a finger on the right side of the bolt that extends out farther than the rest of the bolt. The top of the spring is rounded. When the hammer is cocked, the spring engages the bolt and raises the tip to free the cylinder to rotate. When the hammer falls, the finger on the bolt pushes the spring to one side, allowing the bolt to remain engaged in the cylinder.










I have read this may have been a way for Manhattan to get around patent issues with S&W. I have a book on the way that is supposed to answer some of those questions. Anyway, the little Manhattan is just as interesting as the little Smith. I really like the engraving on the barrel of the Manhattan.

Unfortunately, now it appears there are more types of Tip Ups than I was aware of, and I may have to be on the lookout for some of them.

If anybody can answer my questions about the #1 First Issue, I would be much obliged.

P.S. I pulled the bullet out of a couple of 22 Shorts and dumped out the powder. Both little Tip Ups fired the 'blank'. That is probably all the shooting I will do with them.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:29 AM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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"Is this the way they were designed? Without anything to keep the upper part of the hammer in one position?" YES!
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Old 09-05-2017, 12:15 PM
gmborkovic gmborkovic is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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What a treat to see an unmolested little #1. Especially the frame. You all ways see the brass frame polished to a bright gold color. Very nice find.
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Old 09-05-2017, 01:30 PM
iby iby is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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Hello Driftwood.
I have a first issue 4th type.
It has a .J stamped on the hammer in a slightly different position.
It matches the assembly #s stamped on the barrel, cylinder and frame under the grip
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:42 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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The D00 stamp is the assembly number and if all parts are original to the gun, you will find the D00 stamped elsewhere - frame, barrel, cyl, hammer, etc. The serial number will also be stamped on th backside of the right grip, if the grips are original. The rarest of all the Model Ones, 1st, 2nd and 3rd issues is the transition model between the round frame 1st issue and the flat frame 2nd issues. Serial numbers of these are in the low 11,000 range, mixed in with the serials of the last 1st issues, 6th variety. perhaps 25-40 of these transitionals were produced. Few are known to collectors. The side plates are 1/2 kidney shaped but with a 90 degree angle at the top of the frame cut. Ed.

Last edited by opoefc; 09-05-2017 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 09-05-2017, 06:42 PM
iby iby is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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Default Rarest model 1

Ed
Do you have a picture you could post?
Mike
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:40 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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iby, Sorry, but I sold my example to another Forum member earlier this year. If you have access to some of the early Journals of the S&WCA, there are some photos & drawings in them of the transitional Model 1. Ed.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:17 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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I hope this isn't a thread killer but I sent you a PM about one I have owned for twenty or thirty years. PM sent.
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Old 09-05-2017, 10:09 PM
iby iby is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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Thanks Ed
Thanks Mike
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Old 09-05-2017, 10:26 PM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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Thanks Ed

D00 or 00D is stamped on the cylinder and the barrel. Closer examination revealed a faint D stamped on the hammer not too far from the 00. And the serial number of the gun is stamped on the backside of both grips.
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:44 AM
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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I own Model 1, 1st Issue, 5th Variant, serial number 4768, and Roy dated it to June 1, 1859. So I'd say that yours shipped sometime in June of that year.

I'll post a photo of the square side plate Model 1, 2nd Issue tonight.

Mike
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:55 PM
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JSR III JSR III is offline
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#1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions #1 First Issue, 5th Type. Some observations and a couple of  Questions  
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You guys are killing me. For someone that just got interested in the antique world I fear I am way late to the party. There used to be a gun shop around here and the owner had early S&W tip ups all over the walls hanging on nails. I mean hundreds. When he died and the wife sold everything off, I heard that some dealer from Texas came up and bought a whole boat load of them. Wish I had known then what I know now or at least am beginning to know.

On the down side, he had a reputation for tinkering with the guns innards so all original was not part of his vocabulary.
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Last edited by JSR III; 09-22-2017 at 05:05 PM. Reason: typo
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