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  #51  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:03 AM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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It most certainly has to be flattened to allow the cam to pass--------IF.
IF there's a portion of it bent down adjacent to the portion which is bent up. Given it's pressed into place (and it's thin), I don't see how/why there would be a portion bent down. Now----given my knowledge of physics (or something like that) might best be described as a nodding acquaintance, I'm going to wait until it's squeaky clean, so I can sit, stare, and poke so as to determine if anything's bent down or not----as in: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

In the meantime, I'm going to get out some period correct similar guns with "floor plates" (ceiling plates??), and sit, stare, and poke (with some tiny little feeler gauges) to see what's what---above the cam/below the "floor plate". Bottom Line: There's a gap between the two on an unfooledaroundwith gun-----guarandamnteed!!

Ralph Tremaine

If there's any doubt about that gap (top of cam/bottom of "floor plate"), listen up. I got the dimensions/characteristics of the cam spring I posted earlier from an appropriate gun. That appropriate gun is squeaky clean, and DRY AS A BONE (as I think it ought to be) in what I'll call the cam slot area. I removed the cam and cam spring thus: Remove latch---point barrel up----cam/cam spring fell out onto table. There's a gap.

Last edited by rct269; 09-12-2017 at 02:47 PM.
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  #52  
Old 09-12-2017, 02:02 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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"Floor Plates"----a closer look

My first inquiry into "floor plates" considered manufacturing processes---only. I decided those which had them had "cam slots" which were milled from the top down---and those that didn't had cam slots milled from back to front. It made sense. I stopped.

I started another such inquiry---just now. I examined all my top breaks. Here's what's what----along with some commentary---which may or may not be sound.

Matthew's large frame .44 DA has one, ergo it stands to reason all large frame guns have them. Really?!! I have 4 NM #3 Targets (same/similar frames/same/similar barrels). They were shipped in 1893, 1894, 1896, and 1902. NONE of them have "floor plates". HUH?!!

I have 4 1st Model SS's (small frames). They were shipped in 1895, 1900, 1902, and 1905. ALL of them have "floor plates". Hmmmmmm??

I have 4 2nd Model SS's (same small frame/same barrel). They were shipped in 1909, 1909, 1910 and 1910. ALL of them have "floor plates". Okay.

I have 1 Model of '91 target revolver---small frame/same size barrel forging---parent of the SS's above. It was shipped in 1910. It DOES NOT have a "floor plate". Hmmmmmmm??---again.

I have 4 3rd Model SS's---small frame, more importantly---same barrel forging as the 1st's/2nd's above. The first two were shipped in 1915 and 1916. They have "floor plates". The last two were shipped in 1923 and 1924. They DO NOT have "floor plates".

That's the end of my top breaks. At this point, I was contemplating walking down to the river, and jumping in.

Given my bent to think about how these things were made---and at what point might one (having made a mistake) pitch the mistake and start over, I immediately jumped to the conclusion these "floor plates" were a repair procedure----the barrel was improperly jigged (to mill from back to front)----the milling bit ran out the top---and-------"floor plate" to the rescue. It made sense---at least a little.

Given the total lack of statistical analysis validity represented by this small sample, it's quittin' time---for now at least.

Having said all that, I'm starting to see why Mr. Jinks ignored my question on this topic---although it would display a modicum of couth to simply respond with an "I don't know."

Ralph Tremaine

Last edited by rct269; 09-12-2017 at 02:43 PM.
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  #53  
Old 09-12-2017, 04:20 PM
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Just a question on your "back to front" theory....

Wouldn't have been a lot easier to just drill a round hole instead of a square one???
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadin View Post
Just a question on your "back to front" theory....

Wouldn't have been a lot easier to just drill a round hole instead of a square one???
Absolutely!!---------and it would be no big deal to fashion the same cam face on a piece of round stock.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:16 AM
M_conrad_0311 M_conrad_0311 is offline
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Well, after a week of soaking and many attempts at pushing the cam, slight inertia blows, and picking with dental instruments, I have made zero progress in releasing the cam. I agree that the floor plate may be bent up enough to impede movement by the cam. I am going by a recommended gun smith to see if they would be inclined to do a little work on it for me. Hopefully, he has the proper tools and know how to remedy this issue and get this old girl back to propped function.

Just so the rest of you do not make the same mistake that have, I pass on these words of wisdom: do not use your wife's Sonicare toothbrush and kitchen sink as a soaking vat, she will not like it or the smell. Who knew? I hope she doesn't notice the "modifications" to her hair dryer and curling iron.The good thing is, she is ok with me spending my $ for a qualified fixer of guns.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:59 AM
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In post #44 why is it that I see what looks like a lump of solder in the second picture that doesn't show in the first picture??

I have a feeling that you are going to have to drive the "floorplate" out and figure some way of replacing it with one that isn't all bent up.
Just how to get it out may be a bit of a challenge. Is there enough of a lip that that you could get some sort of a wedge or prying tool in there?
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  #57  
Old 09-19-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadin View Post
In post #44 why is it that I see what looks like a lump of solder in the second picture that doesn't show in the first picture??

I have a feeling that you are going to have to drive the "floorplate" out and figure some way of replacing it with one that isn't all bent up.
Just how to get it out may be a bit of a challenge. Is there enough of a lip that that you could get some sort of a wedge or prying tool in there?
It is the angle and lighting changes between photos. I see it better in person. It appears to me to have been soldered in the past also. I wonder if it has been worked on in the past and the current cam impedement is a result of previous work?
I hope to have better answer later.
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:41 AM
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Wedges and prying tools suggest the use of force. I realize some of my earlier comments also at least hinted at the use of force---although I hope they were taken with a (LARGE) "grain of salt". Force has a way of moving things you didn't want moved.

I don't know for sure and certain how these plates were installed. I'm comfortable stating those who installed them had no intention whatsoever that they would EVER be removed.

Measure twice---cut once-----and stuff like that!!

(I recall, from MANY years ago---installing a set of shock absorbers on the Boss Lady's car---------back when I didn't know which end of a wrench to hold onto. I called out from under the car to my helper/teacher/friend as I was tightening one of the bolts: "How tight is tight?" That inquiry was punctuated by "SNAP!!" as the bolt broke. His reply: "Not that tight.")

Ralph Tremaine

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  #59  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:38 PM
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How tight is tight? Tighten it down until it strips,
then back off a 1/4 turn.....
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:04 PM
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I took the DA to Andy at Southern Precision Tooling here in Blount county, TN. Within 5 minutes, they had the cam and spring out using RT's suggestion of bunt force trauma. They had a piece of copper stock that fit between the top strap horns and tapped it repeatedly until the cam worked it's way over the bent floor plate. There was another 100 years of crud in front of the cam and embedded into the spring. They had no problem with the idea of straightening out the floor plate and getting everything back to working order. They are going to fix the stocks as well as give it a thorough cleaning for me all for a very reasonable price. I thought low, but I didn't say that.

After getting the DA sorted out, Andy thought it a good time to show me what their specialty was...suppresors and a new proprietary muzzle break that will change your ideas about shooting high caliber rifles. They twisted my arm and made me shoot a few of their weapons and ammo. First was an AR 15, there was no flip or bounce and I never had to require my target, even with double tap and rapid fire. Yeah, I know...it is a 223, big deal. The AR 10 was the same way, except with the same recoil as would be expected from a 223. Then a 30-06, same results. I would not be afraid to let my 8 year old fire it. There was very little recoil at all with all associated weapons. The muzzle breaks are under the name Hu Du. I was quite impressed.
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Within 5 minutes, they had the cam and spring out using RT's suggestion of bunt force trauma.
BHM - when all else fails use the bigger hammer methodology.
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Old 09-19-2017, 04:26 PM
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HALLELUJAH BROTHERS AND SISTERS!!!

Ralph Tremaine
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  #63  
Old 09-19-2017, 05:36 PM
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Now Ralph, you know that you are going to miss adding to this thread.
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Old 09-19-2017, 07:14 PM
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Sometimes you eat the bear-----sometimes the bear eats you!

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:07 PM
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I'm a sucker for a happy ending.
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  #66  
Old 09-20-2017, 08:14 AM
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I'll chime in with my own fix mis-information based on owning about 12 of these .44 DA top breaks. I had one with no spring tension pushing the latch. Took it apart & found no spring --- missing. Took a good one apart to see what it looked like & decided all I needed was the spring. Out of the 100s of miscellaneous springs I have, nothing was right. I used a piece of spring that would give some push & put it back together. Too weak but it works till I can find a better spring ---->
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:41 AM
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Hard to gauge how big that spring is, but looks like a shortened rebound slide spring (trigger return) would work.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy View Post
Hard to gauge how big that spring is, but looks like a shortened rebound slide spring (trigger return) would work.
Now you see, that's the trouble with these threads that go on forever---we forget stuff. Post #42 provides all the information "to gauge how big that spring is"---never mind the spring pictured is almost certainly an original, and that in post #42 is likewise "almost certainly" simply one that works.

It would be a relatively small task to confirm that one way or the other, but I have to go make short grass. So I'll leave you with this little tid-bit (which you already know): Any spring which will fit over the post on the cam and into the hole in the barrel will do just fine---after some scientific fitting (known as "cut and try")--and then maybe cut some more---or say a few bad words, and start over with a new (and longer) spring.

Ralph Tremaine

And Guy's probably right about a rebound slide spring. It wouldn't fit very well, but it'd likely work.

Last edited by rct269; 09-20-2017 at 10:44 AM.
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