DA (not) Frontier questions

M_conrad_0311 · #1 09-08-2017, 10:45 PM

I picked up this double action frontier in a 3 gun trade/purchase. I do not know much about the revolver other than it was the 1st DA revolver S&W made. How do I identify the caliber of this revolver? What is an estimate on value and ship date? SN 33191

mmaher94087 · #2 09-08-2017, 11:24 PM

You probably have a S&W .44 Russian revolver. Look at the chambers. If there is a noticeable shoulder about 2/3 of the way down the cylinder then that will designate the .44 Russian cartridge. Also, if the cylinder is 1 7/16" (not 1 9/16") you have a .44 Russian.

M_conrad_0311 · #3 09-08-2017, 11:44 PM

There is a shoulder 2/3 - 3/4 way down and looks like 1 - 7/16" to me....44 Russian, I would assume.

rct269 · #4 09-09-2017, 01:17 AM

PSSSSSSSSSSSSSTT!!

The 1 7/16" you're looking for is the long way----not the cross way.

The short cylinder will accommodate the Russian. So will the 1 9/16", but the long one came into being to accommodate the 44/40---on the Frontier model.

S00000000000000000000-----if it's chambered for .44 Russian, it ain't a Frontier---and if it's a Frontier, it ain't .44 Russian----and besides all this chain yanking, given the serial number (over 15000 something) it ain't a Frontier anyhow---nohow.

Cheer Up----it'll get worse.

Ralph Tremaine

And what looks like 1 7/16"??

M_conrad_0311 · #5 09-09-2017, 01:39 AM

Ralph, you sure know how to cheer a fella up. It is scruffy as HE double hockey sticks, but I like the old thing. It was a throw in on the other two I grabbed, so I will count it as a low impact worse. Actually, you keep me laughing with your insight. That alone made my day/night.

What makes it even better is you pointing out my inadequacy at reading a tape measure. Ah heck, watch what comes next. You can see where I marked the tape correctly, I just posted the wrong photo.

rct269 · #6 09-09-2017, 02:03 AM

Well, the good news is you get to use a hammer if you take it apart!

RT

JSR III · #7 09-09-2017, 07:06 AM

Matthew, Ralph is one of our more knowledgeable and eloquent posters and his answers always contain a bit of humor.

I am not up on value of these guns but condition is to guns as location is to real estate. Your gun is not a boat anchor but is also not pristine. I would rate it around 60% but that's me.

My best method to establish value is to look at the sold listings on a site like Gun Broker to see what others have been getting. The current listings can be deceiving because you can ask any price but that does not mean that you will get it. You could also pick up a copy of the Standard Catalog of S&W which many times will give values. Personally I think their estimates on some items are high but again that's just me.

Either way, it is still a cool gun IMHO and if it is not something that you collect, try offering it here in the for sale section as many S&W collectors lurk here.

S&WsRsweet · #8 09-09-2017, 08:35 AM

You guys are truly educational and with just enough humor thrown in to keep it interesting ,not many real smart people have good sense of humor thanks for never letting it get dry lol. Actually I like that 44 Russian .Why ? I don't know I just like saying " 44 Russian" i guess ,cool gun thanks for posting and thanks guys for the education and intertainment I needed it this morning.

rhmc24 · #9 09-09-2017, 08:54 AM

Made in 1880s, it looks like it's escaped bubba & if its function is OK, I'd pay $500 for it, maybe 6 ---->

iby · #10 09-09-2017, 11:50 AM

Likely more like middle 1890's as it seems to have the S&W logo stamp on the frame.
5" barrel?

mmaher94087 · #11 09-09-2017, 11:59 AM

Matthew, I have found the 4" barrel harder to find than the 6". I don't know if this is an off-shoot of the Cowboy Action Shooter "side matches" where the 4" barrel seems to be preferred or if the short barrel was not made in as large a quantity as the longer one. Lightly loaded smokeless rounds are available for that revolver but keep in mind that parts are almost impossible to find should something break.

M_conrad_0311 · #12 09-09-2017, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iby

Likely more like middle 1890's as it seems to have the S&W logo stamp on the frame.
5" barrel?

It is 5" barrel.

opoefc · #13 09-10-2017, 12:01 AM

M Conrad 03 11, NM Navy, .44 Russian Double Action, serial number 33191, was made March 24, 1896. You will need a factory historical letter to get the shipping date & info. Ed.

M_conrad_0311 · #14 09-10-2017, 11:21 AM

Thank you Ed. That is impressive, I do not believe I have ever received a mfg date before. I do not see any military markings on this DA NM3. I am assuming that it is a commercial model. Can you tell if this was a blue or nickle by what is left of the finish?

The action in both single and double work well. The revolver cycles well, the timing is good and, lock up also. I was wondering if there is a spring catch to the break top latch or is it just free movement for lack of better description? It just seems like there would be a more refined latch system or if this is normal function of this model? To better explain, the top break latch seems to move up to open easily after the safety has been released. I would think that there would be some tension on the latch to help keep it in the closed position. I do not visually see any detent provisions on the latch or frame.

I am unable to remove the stocks, as the screw keeper is rotating in the right stock when I turn the screw.

Both 4 and 6 inch barrels were discussed above. Are they both less prevalent than the 5 inch barrels?

Thank you all for the insight and comments.

rct269 · #15 09-10-2017, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_conrad_0311

Thank you Ed. That is impressive, I do not believe I have ever gotton a mfg date before. I do not see any military markings on this DA NM3. I am assuming that it is a commercial model. Can you tell if this was a blue or nickle by what is left of the finish?

The action in both single and double work well. The revolver cycles well, the timing is good and, lock up also. I was wondering if there is a spring catch to the break top latch or is it just free movement for lack of better description? It just seems like there would be a more refined latch system or if this is normal function of this model? To better explain, the top break latch seems to move up to open easily after the safety has been released. I would think that there would be some tension on the latch to help keep it in the closed position. I do not visually see any detent provisions on the latch or frame.

I am unable to remove the stocks, as the screw keeper is rotating in the right stock when I turn the screw.

Both 4 and 6 inch barrels were discussed above. Are they both less prevalent than the 5 inch barrels?

Thank you all for the insight and comments.

Latch Stuff: Yes, there's a spring as part of the latch assembly---or is supposed to be. So now it's autopsy time:

1. Open the gun.

2. Remove the screw directly ahead of the latch.

3. Remove the latch---straight back. (Note there's a hole in the top strap (right in front of where the latch used to be)---going in the same direction as the barrel. Inside this hole is/should be the barrel catch cam and it's spring. There'll almost certainly be about a 100 years worth of crud in there too. You can pick at the crud if you want to, but it's a waste of time. Put it to soak in your favorite crud soaker, and go play with your children's mother---for a looooooong time.

4. Back to business: Remove any and everything inside the hole with toothpicks/dental picks/what have you. You will eventually see a little ramp inside the hole---or should see it. Push on it at the bottom---coincident with the bottom of the hole-----with a non-marring instrument (plastic rod/wooden dowel). If it has soaked long enough, it should move---forward----and then back (if there's a spring behind it----as there should be). It's never going to move very far. More soak stuff and more pushing will/should eventually result in free movement of not very much----and it's a stout spring, so some effort is required.

Remember 6th-7th grade general science---and that stuff about inertia and momentum? That's your best bet for getting the little ramp thing (barrel catch cam) out of the hole----if it didn't fall out---which it didn't---because it hasn't soaked long enough---or your soaker stuff isn't good enough---or you didn't clean out the exit hole well enough---or all of the above.

Keep at it.

Now---if there's nothing in the hole besides crud, it's a piece of cake: Clean out the hole. Get a replacement cam and spring, and put it in the hole---spring first. Resist the temptation to lubricate the cam/hole with anything besides a dry lube.

Reassembly is the reverse of the above. (I've always wanted to say that. I've also wanted to kill everybody who's ever said it.)

Ralph Tremaine

And by the by, a "screw keeper" is known as an escutcheon (Good luck with the pronunciation!!) As to the fix, someone will be along directly to help---or I hope they will; because I've forgotten. Although now that I've said that, it seems like mashing on it with a pencil eraser has to do with it. And now that I think about that, it at least makes sense.

M_conrad_0311 · #16 09-10-2017, 03:10 PM

Ralph, you owe me $1300 for a trip to the emergency room, which will be discussed later. Thank you for the directions, I followed them to a T.

1. Open the gun...oh yeah, I got this, this is too easy.

2. Remove the screw... Only one screw, I am a genius. I am on my way to becoming a gunsmith.

3. Remove the latch --straight back...I sure hope straight back means toward the butt. Heck yeah, I am a real life phenomenon. This gunsmithing is easy work. Wait, there is no hole. Ralph said there would be a hole. No problem, I am now a world class gunsmith, I can get the drill and make one. Wait a minute...blah, blah,blah, CRUD...oh yeah, 100 years of crud. I am supposed to soak it and play with the kid's mom. I don't know what this has to do with Gunsmithing, but I am sure she won't mind to help such a magnificent protege as myself after she has worked her third night shift in the open heart intensive care unit. Fast forward to my return from the $1300 ER visit. I hope Ralph thinks he is funny, the kid's mother didn't think I should wake her up for this important step.

4. Back to business... Fortunately, my trip to the emergency room should have allowed the gun some extra soaking time and I was able to procure some wooden sticked cotton tipped applicators (Q-TIPS) for the cleaning/probing step. Oh no, I was so excited about the play with the children's mother step that I skipped the soaking step. This was due to the thesaurus word of the day for scrabble thingy (escutcheon) that prevented me from removing the stocks. Probing, cleaning, and exploration through the crud led (formerly known as lead) me to a sloped metal ramp still yet with no hole, spring, or cam. I may be missing a part or two? Photos attached below

rct269 · #17 09-10-2017, 03:26 PM

See the little tit pointing forward on the latch ahead of the screw hole? It came out of the hole in question. Accordingly, the hole is there. And inside the hole is (should be) the thing with a ramp on it (cam)---and behind/ahead of that is (should be) the spring.

Now, your mention of a sloped metal ramp (which is inside the hole in question) suggests you're well on your way to success. It would be easier if I could decipher your ramblings----and spelling. By "lead" (me to a sloped metal ramp) did you perchance mean "led"? And if so------GOTCHA!!

Ralph Tremaine

M_conrad_0311 · #18 09-10-2017, 03:55 PM

Lead, should be led.

Wiregrassguy · #19 09-10-2017, 05:08 PM

Y'all need to video this and put it on YouTube. It would beat Abbott and Costello.

Guy

M_conrad_0311 · #20 09-10-2017, 07:16 PM

I have continued to try and get behind the sloped face (possible cam), but I am unable to find any seams that would suggest that it is the cam and that it would come out. I wonder if this is the back wall of the hole, and that the cam and spring are missing? I have attached better photos of the hole in question.

Ralph, is it time for the hammer? Lol, in all seriousness, the inertia that may be needed to remove the cam could best be applied in which manner as to not damage the barrel, if indeed that is the cam that I am working on?

deadin · #21 09-10-2017, 07:59 PM

Nope! That's the cam. It looks like it is really crudded in there.
Do you have access to a sonic cleaner? If so you might fill the tank with some solvent (I would tend toward Auto Transmission fluid and kerosene or Kroil, let it soak for several days and then turn on the sonic for a while. (Remove the barrel from the frame......)

rct269 · #22 09-10-2017, 08:28 PM

The sloped face is most certainly the cam. Getting behind it is not likely (but can be done).

We need to go back to whatever step involved soaking----or perhaps just define the term so we're on the same page. The enemy here is crud. It has been accumulating forever---or a long time---whichever comes first. A little shot of whatever magic potion is not going to get the job done.

Soaking: Submerged in an appropriate solvent---and left there---typically for 2-3 days----or longer. Not to depress you, but I've soaked stuff for 2-3 weeks. The good news is it works---eventually.

You're dealing with a piece of precision machinery which has been neglected at best---abused at worst. There's no fast fix. It (the cam) is stuck because there's crud in front of it (in front being what you can see). And/or it's stuck because there's crud underneath and on both sides of it. There isn't much of a top to it, so we'll ignore that for now. What I see in the photos may be the result of magnification, but I see evidence of pitting. Pitting suggests rust. Rust suggests the cam is rusted in place. That has some credibility---as witnessed by by your earlier statement to the effect there was no spring pressure acting on the latch. Crud solvent is one thing---rust solvent is something else. (I've never had to deal with rust.) My crud solvent of choice is mineral spirits---probably because I can get my hands on it in short order. Getting may hands on anything else is a 50-100 mile round trip. And having said that, some of the brethren have suggested (and sworn by) some magic elixir (for rust) which I don't recall---at least not for sure and certain. My knee-jerk recollection is a 50-50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid (and even I can get those in short order). Thinking about that concoction for not very long leads me to believe it'd be good for what ails you----no matter what ails you. (The acetone seems like it would work on crud, and I'm guessing the ATF would work on rust.) Somebody needs to help us out here. Is my recollection correct?

The Bottom Line: There ain't no quick fix----soak it.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside----and you're nowhere even close to being ready for this, the inertia/momentum business involves TAPPING the back of the barrel (off the frame is advised/recommended) on a (protected) hard surface. The back of the barrel consists of a couple of relatively flimsy ears, so there's to be NO WHAMMITY-BAMMING----just tapping. Similarly there's to be no side loads---tap straight down. Side loads are used to bend things. A "protected hard surface" is whatever you're using for a work bench with a rubber mat on it. Any (ANY) inertia/momentum business is conducted AFTER you're able to move the cam forward---and have the spring push it back. In the highly unlikely event the spring is broken (more likely not there because of a Bubba somewhere along the line) then Plan C is called for. Plan C involves the use of some of my vast collection of dental picks-------and an equally vast amount of patience. And the dental picks are useless until after the crud/rust/whatever is dealt with---although they work great for cleaning the front side.

mmaher94087 · #23 09-10-2017, 08:32 PM

Be careful with a sonic cleaner. Make sure the part is completely submerged otherwise a 'ring-around-the-tub' may result on the barrel or any other part put in the ultrasonic.

As Ralph and Dean stated; that is the cam you need to remove to find the spring inside the drilled hole. I suggest a 24 hour soaking in Kroil or other good solvent or rust penetrant (Liquid Wrench, etc.) and then heating the latch area with a hair drier (no flames, please). When warm to the touch (fairly hot) dunk it in the solvent for another soak. Repeat as necessary. Be patient; it will eventually free up.

JSR III · #24 09-10-2017, 09:10 PM

In addition to heat one can also use cold. I have in the past taken rusted and or cruded metal pieces and used a combination of heating (hair dryer) and freezing (freezer). As heating expands the metal pieces, freezing contracts the metal.

It is this movement of the metal that will help break the lock placed on it by rust and crud.

I admit that I have never tried this on gun parts so cannot speak to that.

Good luck.

M_conrad_0311 · #25 09-10-2017, 09:15 PM

Dean, Mike, Ralph.and James, thank you for your help. A good soaking it is. I will have to get the stocks off first, as it would appear that the pin holding the barrel in place may need some break free juice as well.

To be continued...

M_conrad_0311 · #26 09-10-2017, 09:45 PM

Barrel off with a minor persuasion. Now soaking

deadin · #27 09-10-2017, 09:45 PM

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, or, at least a few...
These are from a .32 DA of the same vintage, but they're all the same. Just different size.

Sorry about the quality of the pics, but I was in a hurry....

M_conrad_0311 · #28 09-10-2017, 10:30 PM

Dean, that allows me to know exactly what I am dealing with in design. Thank you very much.

Peak53 · #29 09-10-2017, 10:48 PM

This is a Top 100 thread for sure.

M_conrad_0311 · #30 09-11-2017, 06:02 AM

Quote:

As an aside----and you're nowhere even close to being ready for this, the inertia/momentum business involves TAPPING the back of the barrel (off the frame is advised/recommended) on a (protected) hard surface. The back of the barrel consists of a couple of relatively flimsy ears, so there's to be NO WHAMMITY-BAMMING----just tapping. Similarly there's to be no side loads---tap straight down. Side loads are used to bend things. A "protected hard surface" is whatever you're using for a work bench with a rubber mat on it. Any (ANY) inertia/momentum business is conducted AFTER you're able to move the cam forward---and have the spring push it back. In the highly unlikely event the spring is broken (more likely not there because of a Bubba somewhere along the line) then Plan C is called for. Plan C involves the use of some of my vast collection of dental picks-------and an equally vast amount of patience. And the dental picks are useless until after the crud/rust/whatever is dealt with---although they work great for cleaning the front side.

Now Ralph, surely you are referring to the time that it will take for loosening crud rather than my Bubba Gump Smiddy Co. skill set. I will have you know, that after the wife left to go back to work at the hospital last night, I went into her bathroom and got her Sonicare toothbrush out and placed it in the kitchen sink with my "one shot wonder " special formula soaker agent of O'Reilly'$ ATF and some of her nail polish remover (real close to acetone). I had to also buy some of those Christmas tree air fresheners to help with the smell. As for heat, I may have to use the microwave, her hair dryer didn't like being submerged in the secret formula. You needn't worry about my "tapping" skills, I am not a "whammity - bamming" type of guy. Well it is off to work for me today and we will see how time works it's magic on on my barrel while I am away. Wish me luck!

JSR III · #31 09-11-2017, 08:56 AM

A thought came to me while reading through this thread again. Has anyone ever tried placing the rusted or cruddy parts in their favorite recipe of crud buster and put in on the stove to warm up???? I am wondering if the combination of heat and oil would break the bond any faster???

Obviously, one would need to make sure that their concoction was not flammable but the boiling concoction might just do the trick.

Is their a temperature that would possibly harm the heat treating of the metal? Perhaps not boiling the mixture but merely bringing it to a very warm level.....

Just some random thoughts.

Wiregrassguy · #32 09-11-2017, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Is their a temperature that would possibly harm the heat treating of the metal?

You'd have to take the temperature up to 600 degrees or higher and hold for a long time.

I don't think these old guns were heat treated at all after they were forged.

deadin · #33 09-11-2017, 09:37 AM

My sonic cleaner has a heating element, but it won't bring anything to a boil.
Sometimes it helps....

M_conrad_0311 · #34 09-11-2017, 09:42 AM

One would have to study the boiling points of the ingredients used and the volatility of each, which would likely change when mixed and maybe even more with the addition of heat. I may have to break out the grill and test with something else 1st.

1. ATF is meant to withstand heat and may resist boiling without substantial heat. I read that as "probably safe?"
2. Acetone very volatile and suggest no heat...I read "definitely not safe by itself" where is the grill?

There are proper ways to heat acetone, but I think I will wait and let time take its course with a safe room temperature mixture. I can not afford any more ER visits this week. Which reminds me, I should have taken that Sonicare toothbrush out of the kitchen sink this morning before the children's mother got home from work.

deadin · #35 09-11-2017, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Obviously, one would need to make sure that their concoction was not flammable but the boiling concoction might just do the trick.

This reminded me of some instructions in an old photography manual (circ. 1903) on how to make some solution used in developing negatives. Among the items in the list of things needed were a large porcelain pot, a wooden board large enough to cover the pot and a kitchen stove. (wood, coal or gas in those days...) The board was to be used to smother the fire when (note "when", not "if") the mixture ignited.

Wiregrassguy · #36 09-11-2017, 09:46 AM

There may be a point where mechanical agitation is required for your penetrating oil to penetrate. Sorta like removing a sideplate from a hand ejector.

rct269 · #37 09-11-2017, 01:07 PM

In the beginning-----------------------See Post # 14 (which I took to say there's no spring tension on the latch). I'm thinking I paid too much attention to spring---and tension----and such like---which is to say my brain was in neutral---or just stuck in the mud.

I am quick to tell folks about Problem Solving School when they seem to be off on a wild goose chase----lesson number one being to make sure you know what the real problem is---so as to not be spending resources solving symptoms. Here I/we have leaped to a stuck cam/broken (missing?) spring as the problem. It would certainly appear the cam is at least impeded, but SOMETHING is moving. If the latch is in contact with the cam in the closed position, SOMETHING has to be able to move in order to raise the latch. And if the latch is NOT in contact with the cam in the closed position, then maybe we're on the right track. The only other SOMETHINGS in the equation are the screw/screw hole----make that holeS---and the frame horns---and the latch itself (the holes that fit over the frame horns). There's a screw hole in the frame----there's a screw hole in the latch. The hole in the frame is likely to be just fine. The hole in the latch looks to be round. Is it? Are there any cracks around the circumference of the hole in the latch? So, how's the screw? Is it the same dimension throughout its length? Are there any grooves in the shank? Was the screw tight when you went to take it out?

Another possibility is the frame horns----that which the latch grabs onto (not to mention the latch itself). Is the barrel/frame assembly tight---as one, when the gun is closed? And if it isn't, why isn't it?

The foregoing presented as food for thought----SOMETHING must be moving. What is it?

Ralph Tremaine

deadin · #38 09-11-2017, 02:15 PM

Quote:

SOMETHING must be moving. What is it?

Only your mind Ralph.....

M_conrad_0311 · #39 09-11-2017, 02:15 PM

Ralph, those are all fantastic points to ponder and investigate. The frame locks up tight as one when the latch is closed completely. There is zero tension ever on the latch open or closed. It moves freely from closed to open until the tit at the front of the latch makes contact with the frozen cam, suggesting that cam is frozen in the foward most position. Is this a result of a broken/missing spring, I will soon find out. I had examined for cracks initially, but will reexamine all areas and potential problems mentioned above when I return home this afternoon. All screws removed so far have not been warped, stripped or damaged in any way and all were tight. I think your initial diagnosis is the correct diagnosis

I should say, there is the initial tension from the latch being locked into the closed position from the frame horns making direct, snug contact with all areas of the latch, but not from the cam to the latch.

rct269 · #40 09-11-2017, 03:03 PM

Bless you for being way ahead of me!!

RT

rct269 · #41 09-11-2017, 03:12 PM

And another thought----about inertia, momentum, and mostly WHAMMITY-BAMMING.

When the time comes for such, hold the barrel (muzzle up) with one hand, and smack it at the other end with a rubber mallet. Given your inability to hold it such as to keep it from moving, there's no chance of bending/breaking anything. (I've always just smacked them on the bench, but I've always had just cruddy ones----not SUPER cruddy ones!!)

Ralph Tremaine

rct269 · #42 09-11-2017, 03:54 PM

AND------------------------

Given the need for a replacement spring, this from a NM #3 Target (same frame/barrel/latch size):

Wire Diameter: .030"

Coil Diameter: .160"

Free Length: .460"

Number of Coils: 6, plus two halves (one at either end)

And the inside diameter is such as to be a light press fit on the .104" post on the cam. Note the spring is tapered---such that it's a light press fit on the post at one end-----and falls on (and off) at the other. It's likely a satisfactory replacement can be had at most any gunsmith. It for sure and certain can be had in a spring kit from Brownells (Bring money!)

Ralph Tremaine

And up there where I said Number of Coils, read number of spaces between coils.

glowe · #43 09-11-2017, 05:44 PM

This is a long time ago, so what I remember might not be totally complete. I had a 44 DA that was in good condition, but never touched internally. It appeared the owner just poured oil into the mechanism and kept shooting it. The cam on the top latch was frozen in place. No one remembered to pour oil on the latch assembly. I soaked it, sprayed it, heated it, and used the rubber hammer to no avail and it would not pop out. I finally measured the slot where the cam sat and fashioned a piece of oak to fit the slot exactly. I placed the barrel in a vice and started tapping the cam with the "oak" punch and actually pushed it further into the slot, and cleaned the ridge of rust where the cam sat and kept adding oil. Over time, the spring started pushing back and I just kept working it free until it finally came out far enough to get hold of it and pull it out. A thorough cleaning, and yes a small wire brush on the dreaded Dremel tool removed the remaining rust inside the slot and everything finally worked just as it should. Might be worth trying to move it forward instead of backward???

M_conrad_0311 · #44 09-11-2017, 08:05 PM

Gary that is a great idea. I tried to apply an adaptation of your technique tonight, but still unable to get it to budge. It appears that the ATF is working through some of the crud and rust. I happened to notice an outline on the bottom of the top strap. There are also grooves along the bottom inside lip that looks like the original design allowed for new lower floor to be slid in and out below the cam and spring hole. Which is good, because it would appear that either I or a Bubba before me has boogered this one up a little. It looks to have stress cracks that I did not notice last night and a bend at the edge of the lip of this floor plate, for lack of proper terminology.

The potential removable floor plate looks like it might have been soldered or welded over a little. I may be completely wrong in what I am seeing. So I have attached a photo for your thoughts

rct269 · #45 09-11-2017, 09:45 PM

The "potentially removable floor plate" is a mystery to me---it's found on some top breaks---not on others. As I recall my findings it's on earlier guns---not on later. I decided it was pressed into the channel during a period when they milled the channel from top down. Similarly, I decided they learned how to mill it from the back---and bingo---saved a step.

I posted on the Questions For Roy Jinks forum to find out some time back. I guess he missed it---as he's missed several others.

Now, as far as that "potentially removable" business goes, it would appear that thought occurred to someone before, and they didn't fare so well. That said, anything ever made is removable---if you have a big enough hammer, a long enough pry-bar, or a hot enough torch----or sundry other devices---some of which are known as weapons of mass destruction. On balance, based on what little I know, I'd take a pass.

Ralph Tremaine

M_conrad_0311 · #46 09-11-2017, 11:02 PM

Back in the kitchen sink it goes. I wonder what the wife did with all that transmission fluid from last night? I sure hope she didn't use that toothbrush.

rct269 · #47 09-12-2017, 12:11 AM

You'll hear about it (and/or feel pain about it) if she did!!

RT

deadin · #48 09-12-2017, 12:48 AM

Well, Live and Learn!!

I just checked my early 2nd Model 32 DA (4 digit serial) and it has the insert you pictured. I also checked my 44 WCF Frontier DA(shipped 1900) and it is the same. I never noticed that before. I think Ralph is right that it made it much simpler to mill the slot and then fill it in with a"bottom" plate.
Anyway, yours is really beat up and bent and is probably the source of the problem. I'm not sure of exactly how to fix it. If you manage to pop it it loose, I don't know quite how to get it back in and make it secure.

rct269 · #49 09-12-2017, 01:08 AM

Super Tape----good for almost anything----works every time----available in myriad colors.

RT

On second thought, Helicopter Tape---more properly known as "leading edge" tape--used to protect the leading edge of the rotor blades---stout stuff---expensive stout stuff---not available in myriad colors. I have some black.

If you want to dress it up some, I have some "nuclear" tape that, I'm told, is required for use on certain fluid carrying joints in the piping in nuclear power plants. That's in red---not near as expensive as helicopter tape---and not as good either.

glowe · #50 09-12-2017, 10:18 AM

the "floor plate" is definitely damaged and the cam will not come out until you somehow flatten the bend to allow room. Maybe someone had tried to pry it off in the past?? Anyhow, all 44 DAs I have seen have this feature and think it was as Ralph stated part of the milling process, but it was not intended to ever be removed. Assume it was a press fit part to fill in the slot and has no other useful function.

Simple comment is that it has to be flattened to allow the cam to pass.