So I was watching this one and waiting for the final price to be posted.
I have to say I was surprised in a good way at the results......

https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...evolver#detail

Being that I own the same revolver in similar condition and I also have the complete original holster/belt rig I was glad to see how my investment has gone up in value.

And if you add the 17% buyers premium to the selling price I come up with just over $10,000 total......HOLY SMOKES!

Then I saw on the same auction this one that is a refinished in nickel and sold for the same price.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...evolver#detail

Apparently the market for this antique S&W model has gone up.

Anyone out there recently sold an original Schofield 1st or 2nd Model??

I have posted a few photos of my 1st Model U.S. Schofield....which admittedly has slightly less remaining finish.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

I love your gun man but I don't even personaly know anyone who owns muchness has sold a Schofield but power to ya buddy for collecting dang nice guns.

I found out from David Carroll that both of these guns were at $7,500 at the time of the hammer drop. So the $8,625 includes the buyers fee. Still impressive. The one with original finish is in better shape than mine and that is obvious, but does not include all the leather that goes with mine.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Watch RIA. You may soon see the same guns show up in the not too distant future!

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Don Mundell

Great looking old gun!

Will you post some photos of it and the leather you have that goes with it? Love to see some.

That is just what the buyer pays, plus shipping and FFL fees if an internet bidder. Don't forget the seller's premium, which will bring the total money coming into RIA around $10,000!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I will dig out the leather and post some photos......

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

And THAT right there speaks VOLUMES----even though it doesn't.

Ralph Tremaine

I was trying to figure out what that statement meant??

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Don pinned it. A lot of stuff turns up again.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Don't get too excited. A non auction venue it would be hard to get half that amount. Do you know what it cost to sell one from those guys? Is it 25%? Or more than that? Oh never mind, yours get stolen your insurance company will bring everything into reality.

Having collected old guns for many years and hopefully gotten a little smarter as the years go by. Also having both purchased and sold through RIA. I would offer the following...

The RIA listing has a fair amount of what looks like original finish. That old finish is fragile and having that is a major major plus. With old guns, rare is nice but condition is really paramount. It is a the primary multiplier of value.

What I am looking for now is three different turn of the century revolvers with production of 1K or less. They do not often show up, but if one does, it needs to have original finish in reasonable quantity, or I do not even look. The worn specimens sell for less than 1K, the one I look for will be 2-3K or more.

That being said, a rising tide raises all boats. If the interest in old guns continues, then even the lesser grades will rise in value. My opinions and YMMV.

I think I've seen RIA sell more .320 Revolving Rifles than S&W even produced. :-) I wish I would have tracked SNs to see how many were repeat listings.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

If yours gets stolen, reality is entirely dependent upon your "proof of loss"---YOUR documentation of the CURRENT replacement cost of the items. Present a good one, your check arrives by return mail. Anything less gets you reality---also known as a hassle---a hassle you lose.

And as an aside, if you do not have "replacement cost" coverage, you're wasting your premium dollars.

Ralph Tremaine

Some inquiries suggest I should have also noted your "proof of loss" must also document the top three determinants of value---condition, condition, and condition.

Chris Taylor is spot on. I use to track a lot of their Colts and Lugers.
Low and behold, they keep turning up.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

No, I followed most of those. Most are known numbers albeit some are in better condition than they had been in the past. You figure it out.

One old timer (nameless) now passed for many years, specialized in the RRs having most of them restored then slightly aged.

Who knows what the facts are other than the numbers seem to be correct so I wouldn't even hint RIA has sold more than S&W ever made but if you were inclined to be suspicious of RIA on other factor(s), I might lean towards agreeing.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

has anyone here sold thru an auction house like RIA?
What does the seller usually pay?

Standard RIA commissions (last I knew) were 20% for modern, 17.5% for antiques. (Anybody with a current catalog can confirm---and it most certainly will be treated on their web site.)

A little 1st/2nd grade arithmetic adding the commission from the seller and the buyer's premium will tell you the brick and mortar auction houses' piece of the action is--------------not too shabby.

Ralph Tremaine

So if your gun hammers at 1000, the total price is 1150 but you get 825 or about 75%.
So if you are trying to value your guns by sold pricing, figure 75%

Some auction houses will work on little or no commission on high end or noted collections. The prestige of selling a known collection helps drawn in other collections.

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Don Mundell

On the opposite side. I had to buy a three gun lot to get one gun I wanted. When all was said and done, I ended up paying almost 40% between buyers premium, internet fee, shipping, insurance and sales tax, it would have been cheaper for me to drive to Maine and attended in person.

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Don Mundell

So the actual value is around 7500 without all the fluff and BS?

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"GUNS UP"

The internet has provided the auction business the opportunity to reach untold numbers of bidders & buyers, many of whom are uneducated about real collecting and fall for the auction house's hype. If you keep track, you will see the same guns appear & reappear at auctions, not always at the same auction. Some of the guns are real, some are fakes. The next RIA is already advertising a Schofield from a recent Julia auction, where it was exposed as a fake by a Forum member . Same fake description, all over again at the next RIA. Not all such "revolving" guns are fakes, of course. Most are the real thing, perhaps a little"upgrade" between auctions to enhance their "story."Hoping someone will buy the story and not the gun. Caveat Emptor is till the rule. Ed.

Having said that, was the hammer price on the subject revolver of this thread anywhere close to what it would bring in a private sale? If not, what would you think would be a sale price that would be fair to both buyer and seller?

I know auction houses re post guns. I have a Club Gun that appeared in three different auctions, in three years. It went from the Midwest, to the Left Coast and back here East. I got here in New Hampshire. Back in 2010, I bought two Club Guns from an auction house in NH. They appeared in the previous auction, but didn't meet the reserve. In the November auction, they appeared again with the same exact pictures and description with a lower estimate. I got them both. I'm sure there are other examples.

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Don Mundell

Vinny
So the actual price with premium was 8625.
the seller would have realized approx 6500

So you are saying that many of these firearms have a reserve and fail to sell because of it and are offered at another auction house at a later date in the hope that the reserve is surpassed and/or with a lower reserve? Probably so. Better than what I surmised--that shill bidders drive the price up and, it is hoped, over the reserve, so that a firearm sells, even if the highest bid of the highest bidding truly competitive bidder is significantly lower.

Somewhere, within all the parameters and scenarios mentioned and realized, there is something to be said to the benefit of having intimate knowledge of what you're purchasing and "who" you're purchasing it from.

There are just some things you'll not see other than at major auction (e.g. Gary Cooper's Registered Magnum) but then there are many that you can find, privately. The latter are my favorite purchases.

I'm sure the Gary Cooper RM bidding got carried away. Who was there to see the bidding on the floor and how can you see a phone bid ? $50 K ? I'm not surprised it sold for that but it really should not have. There aren't many guys left alive that truly care if Gary Cooper owned it or not. (but I ARE one of the guys that do care ... to a certain price).

I was once made fun of at B. Altman's NYC, NY when I entered to have a signature of Clark Gable authenticated. Non-MGM picture. It is a personal camera photograph of his training platoon in Miami, Florida, signed in fountain pen. I have never seen another.

The person who gifted it to me was the daughter of Clark's training Sargent. The point is ... B. Altman's saw no value in authenticating an "actor's" signature.

A president, Lincoln, Kennedy, and those of historical significance ... SURE !! Signature of an "actor" was a joke. Those are the hard core collectors of historical documents and personal property the latter surely must have irrefutable provenance (see Kevin, I spelled it correctly) from a major authentication expert who is bonded and insured.

Surely there are times when certain pieces are very desirable but there is also the clause that the owner of the item can bid up his own items. That, to me, is sleazy but it is not illegal. Then, the illusive reserve mystique which is "reserved" for the who's who and owners / dealers. The average guy is usually informed he cannot place a reserve on anything. Sorry, that's too much of a ****-shoot for me, especially on higher valued items. There are reasons I do not gamble ...this is one of them. The other is I, like most of us, worked very hard for everything I have. The money was not gifted to me nor inherited, nor am I independently wealthy.

Then there is the reliance of the psychology of bidders' frenzy. (e.g. if so and so is bidding this much it must be worth more) or just the plain old seduction and competitive "alpha" bid complex.

There will always be the high rollers who will pay whatever it takes and the bottom feeders who won't pay anything but bottom money. I'm somewhere above the mid-line. I will go higher in a private scenario than most. Once a seller is secure you're a serious collector (and not a bottom feeder) the walls of hard line pricing usually soften.

I have come to the decision I won't make a big purchase from an online auction unless I attend and have examined the items prior to auction. I will, however, pay a good private collector or dealer on his word that if it is NOT what he says, I can return it.

That good old "gentleman's" inspection privilege was the way it had always been but now slowly disappearing or have large tacked on "restocking" fees or other like penalties.

Returning a gun to a major auction house is no small task.

Better, I feel, to have a personal relationship with the person you're purchasing from or selling to.

That's my two-cents worth and now I'm done.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Say it isn't so..

I was looking at Bren 10's on GB one day and found one that sold for $4k plus. Research showed the seller had bought the gun 14 days earlier on GB for half the price on a buy it now..

That's the way it's done..

Not defending auction houses by any stretch but there IS also the possibility that some guns that sell for high almost unrealistic prices end up in the next auction because the buyer gets buyers remorse and either doesn't have the cash or wakes up realizing that he overpaid.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I fall in the middle with the likes of Sal; I may pay more if I really want the piece. I usually don't pay attention to auctions because I think private sales are better and I'm not tempted to get wrapped up in the hype of the action during the auction. I prefer to know, going in, how much is being asked for an item. I can then decide to pay-up, make an offer or pass.

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Mike Maher #283

Anyone care to take a stab at what the Schofield is really worth, independent of the hype of an auction?

Sal hit the nail on the head most squarely with regards to my philosophy of purchasing firearms. I could not have stated it better!

I was surprised that an AR15 Drop-In Auto Sear sold for $25,000 plus buyers premium. There are some really crazy bidders. I can get a righteous Colt M16 for that price or less.

First Model Schofields with that much finish are hard to find in todays market in my opinion. I'll venture a guess that the revolver is in the $6500 to $7000 range if everything is original and there are "NO disappointments". I will also say that I have not priced any Schofields recently as I'm retired and don't have two nickels to rub together.

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Mike Maher #283

$20K sounds about right for a sear, from my recollections.

Mike, you're on target with the evaluation on this one.

My biggest concern in buying / selling any Schofield (1st or 2nd) is that of the several thousand manufactured, they were all "issued" and saw service life. Actually 2 service lives at minimum. There were none left new in box on a shelf in a U.S. Warehouse when they were all "surplus-ed" out (around 1898-ish as best I can determine) that I can find record of.

Anyone with more, documented data, please jump in here to add on.

As the reliable references indicate, SH&G, Bannerman's & M.W. Robinson were the major, if not only, purchasers of the bulk of the surplus. Rest your mind a moment here. Here is where the 5" barrel came into vogue which was a great concept for "pocket" use (yes, it was called "pocket" use) and easier maneuverability and easier carry. Remember, also, New York City was the hub of industry and gun dealers in the USA at the time, not only for dealer, gunsmiths but also engravers. The best of the best were in NYC. This is likely the reason an older (1900s period) refinish on a Schofield is difficult to determine.

Nevertheless, whether remaining in original configuration or having barrel shortened to 5", all the "surplused" guns were either reconditioned for resale or scrapped for parts or so it seems. >>> Side story: In Sarco NJ about 25 years back I organized the old S&W, Colt and Hi Standard racks in a storage room that had roof leaks for ... I don't know HOW many years ... but it was here I happened upon a few crates of Schofield parts guns. Rusty (from roof leaks, weather, unheated non air-conditioned warehouse space), old partly dis-assembled but all were demilled in some way shape or form. Most with "leaded" (leaded solid) barrels but all had firing pins on hammers ground down. I presumed these were some of the "parts" guns which served very little use any more except to scrounge a part or two. It is here I realized the 3 major buyers of the surplus were not only the "Big 3" of NYC. It reasons some made it to Sarco and other dealers, too, I feel. I have never asked Ed Cornett about this but hope he'll be along to comment on Sarco.

What eludes most collectors and sellers is the sheer absence of fact and infusion of hype. You will see claims of "original finish remaining". For this to even be remotely factual, it reasons the Schofield would have needed to been taken out of service by a U.S. soldier prior to the surplus bulk sale.

I'm letting myself in for some harsh criticism here but I've heard it before and will stand fast in my reasoning that the majority of Schofields out there now, have surely been reconditioned or refurbished at one time or another with absolutely NO malice nor trickery intended. It is only a presumption made that any of these finishes are "original". To me "original" is the finish it left the Factory with ... period !

I have further followed the Wells Fargo Schofields long before they became worth such phenomenal money. Out of basis of "per 10" Wells Fargo Schofields I have examined in the past 30 years, about half were true Wells Fargo Schofields (mostly 1st models) with most of them showing SERIOUS wear, use and decades of neglect from being forgotten in a tool shed (or some such).

The caution in the Blue Book of Gun Values that there may be more fake Wells Fargo Schofields than authentic WFSs was my entry going back to about 1997.

The other half (per each 10) were later made and / or stamped (mostly 1st Model Schofields). About 25 years ago out of Oregon or Washington State was an auction that included a set of Wells Fargo Schofield stamp dies that seemed more newly manufactured than older manufacture. I never knew where those went but just the sheer proof of existence of an auction sale of these stamps heightened my awareness that there are still newly made, older Wells Fargo Schofield stamps out there.

On one of my previous posts about a year back I caught 2 Wells Fargo Schofields stamped with the same serial number. That's how rampant the fakery had progressed. I cc-ed a copy of that to Ed Cornett, not naming the antique gun dealer who had recently sold one, but referencing the 2nd one that was for sale at that same time, in a brick and mortar sporting goods chain store / gun dealer who advertised used guns online.

In summation of this grand oratory ... if you're going to purchase a Schofield, be well aware that ... MOST likely ... it has been refinished at least once. Well, that is unless from Roy's personal collection out of the S&W vault, or it is Ed Cornett's issued side arm for the Spanish American War and perhaps just a scant few others out there.

Also, that true period reconditioned / refinished 1900s era Schofield refinish is almost always undetectable (unless it's a 5" then you know for sure). I've tried to pin point finer points like case hardened or black / nickel latch/catch assembly to no definitive consequence. Lesser known secrets are certain type and numbered (serial numbered) screws and all the basic match data that a thorough, expert, inspection will reveal.

Sorry guys, but most Schofields you are going to come across, save very few, will either have replaced parts, and / or refinished many more times than once.

Some I have inspected ... knowing they had been refinished at least TWICE, still had strong stamps, cleaner bores, matching parts and excellent finishes. Almost good enough to pass for original ... IF ... you did NOT know WHAT to look for.

Given these parameters, take a 90% blue remaining (of at least 1 period refinish), all matching parts, mechanically excellent, proper case colors etc, you're going to pay north of $15,000.00. A S&W factory refurbished in the 95%+ remaining ... almost just as much depending on the condition prior to the factory refurbish work.

Depending on certain details and background that could be WAY north of $15,000.00. From here on up, each percentage point of condition will cost dearly.

No matter how much money you have, this is a major investment. Take the time and initiative (and safety precaution) to contact one of the major Schofield collectors or consultants to advise you.

A small investment in expert advice could save you tens of thousands mis-spent on an improperly represented Schofield.

As another side-note ... many misrepresented Schofields are misrepresented mostly because of bad information or opinions and hearsay that had been mistakenly accepted as fact.

Other times ... it's just the old shell game all over again.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Well Sal.I have always been wary of paying for a nice Schofield .
You have simplified my life.
Thanks
Mike

Although there have been a few other single or double-item S&W .320 Revolving Rifle consignors, for the past 2-1/2 to 3 years RIA's ongoing sale of the .320 R/R collection of the late S&WCA member, Dr. Don Anderson, is the primary reason for the large number of of this model being continually offered there.

Don was my my very close-friend (and display partner at the 2010 S&WCA annual meeting in Tucson), in spite of the fact that his main collecting goal was to own every last S&W Revolving Rifle on the planet, and we sold him a bunch over the years. 77 (yep, 77) of them, in all grades of condition, from awful to wonderful (and cased), along with a big box of RR parts, were consigned to the auction by his estate. They are being sold over a planned 5-year period, which works out to a little over 15 per year. In other words, in addition to any others that may be consigned by a different owner, RIA still has a good handful of the Anderson RR's to come - just stay tuned in and watch the show!

DC

The 'Prices Realized' currently posted on RIA's website are actual sales, Don. Lots that do not show a price either didn't meet reserve or (only a couple or so) were pulled from the auction for a valid reason. With the exception of something being returned due to an error on RIA's part, any item currently shown as 'sold' on the website, that appears again in the future --- whether near or far-distant --- will at that time have been consigned by its then owner, not one of the prior owners who were consignors to this month's recently ended auction.

Trust me.

David