I just purchased this old S&W SA and am trying to collect historical data about it. It has long flutes and its my understanding that there were only 1286 44/40's made with the long flutes. I am curious as to why some had long flutes and others didn't? Its also my understanding that some of these guns were used during the Indian wars but Colt won the Government contracts due to a simpler design and also they were less costly. Any comments here would be appreciated.

Here are a couple of photos:


tdennis

tdennis, what a grand looking old revolver. Is it ok mechanically?

tdennis,

All 2072 of the NM#3 .44 Frontier Single-Actions produced had Long Flute (1 9/16")Cylinders!!

1286 of them were chambered in .44/40 (.44 WCF)...The other 786...Shipped to Takata & Co. Yokohama, Japan...Still had Long Flute (1 9/16") Cylinders although they were chambered for the .44 Russian Cartridge!! Hope this helps!!

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Masterpiece

I will know more when I receive it next week but it supposedly is mechanically in good condition. Timing/cocking etc. worn but fair bore.
tdennis

Well, I should have thought of that, someone mentioned to me that some were converted to 44 Russian. I just didn't link it to the long flues. I expected something like what happened when Colt had their long flutes (factory using up cylinders from another line).

Thanks for the info,
tdennis

You asked and I will reply in complete candor and honesty.

Looks like a nice, old, Frontier that lived a long service life. Don't feel badly unless you paid too much for it. These are not often found in much better condition than yours. A much better condition Frontier would be a nice "find" but in lesser conditions, the collectors value goes out the window.

Have you chambered a .44-40 Cartridge to verify the caliber ?

Do the serial numbers on the butt, on the face of the cylinder, on the underside of the latch and in the rear recess of the barrel (which can be seen only with the latch raised, all match ? You may need a Q-tip to clean out the recess to be able to view the numbers.

If the cylinder number doesn't match, but it is numbered under 2072 (previously 2032 was a typo spotted by Masterpiece), a good chance it a Japan shipped gun. If you have various mismatched numbers ... that may be something else, all together.

Of the New Model 3s I own I have 2 Frontiers. I own SN: 2 and SN: 1995. Neither one are anywhere near as pretty as my other NM3s. This just seems to be inherent to this Model. Not many are found in the upper conditions.

Have it checked over by a qualified gunsmith who is familiar with the New Model 3s. In the past I had brought various NM3s to renowned local gunsmiths, having only to take it back out of their hands when they start fiddling with it as if it were dropped by an alien at Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. After a few of those experiences I decided I would mechanically repair, myself. If necessary I would send it to Dave Chicoine (no longer does work) only when I could not repair myself or if it needed a part made.

These are favored by Cowboy Shooters, However, only after it is serviced or repaired, if you decide to cowboy shoot it ... choose your loads wisely to stay well within the lightest black powder pressures. I repeat ONLY after it is certified as "safe" by a qualified gunsmith. Honestly, it may not be worth the money to service it correctly to make it safely functional.

From what I can see in the photos, mechanical condition would be the key factor in a real world value on this, specific, NM3 Frontier as there is little to no "collector's" value remaining while it does have a certain intrinsic value.

Is there any rocking or clicking (looseness)? e.g. if you tightly hold the but and barrel (with 2 hands) and try to rock it back and forth as if you were attempting to open it but with the latch closed ? How does it index and lock up ?

Also, the side plate has been off, likely a LONG time ago, as it does not fit flush and seems it was tapped / lightly hammered back in. That is usually a bad omen if the sideplate does not fit correctly and worse if it's been tapped or hammered.

Even so, this is not a total deal breaker because from what I "can" see the position of the trigger with the hammer down (as you show it) leads me to surmise the hammer has not been filed (that is a good thing). That's usually one of the key reasons the sideplate would have been removed for a service / repair of the hammer (sear contact points), the other is the rotating "hand" usually screws up or gets chipped and needs replacement. But before it gets bad enough that it does not index properly it has usually been chipped for ages, scarring the rotating gear (star).

You might also find this rotating gear or "star" (I don't know the formal name for it) on the rear of the cylinder is usually chopped up or worn a bit from the cylinder bouncing back and forth while pressure is on it from a chipped "hand".

On the Frontiers, for some reason... seems restricted only to this model, the inner sleeve of the cylinder seems to crack / break at the furthest point deep in, near the extractor end of the cylinder.

I copied and enlarged your pictures. Note that there is a visible space between the cylinder and forcing cone of the barrel while the head space (between the rear of the cylinder and flash plate) appears rather wide.

Further, examine the drag line on the cylinder to see how wide that line is. That is not normal. If a NM3 functions properly that should be only a tad wider than a hairline. The drag line is wide from the cylinder bouncing back and forth while being indexed and when being fired. Very typical for the Frontiers more than any other caliber New Model 3.

While this may not effect a "cautious" operation ... what happens is when the revolver is opened to extract the shells, the cylinder tries to over-ride the little stop on the latch and come popping up. Whereas, on all New Model 3s you would need to lift the latch WAY up, unscrew the cylinder counter-clockwise as you pull up to remove it.

To test, lift the latch way up, then just PULL on the cylinder without turning . If it comes straight out, you have the NM3 Frontier curse. If it unscrews firmly and tightly, it's ok.

On yours, the pictures don't show any evidence of the cylinder over-running the stop (is usually leaves some evidence of light lengthwise and / or spiral scratches on the cylinder) but you do have the wide drag line.

The good news is, whatever remains of the finish appears to be the original refinish. Does not appear that it had ever been refinished.

But, since I am not Cousin Vinny, there is not much more I can ascertain from the photos supplied. I hope this helps. Don't hestiate to ask any specific questions or ask for clarification if I did not hit all the bases, point-on.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Hi Sal,

Quick question...If by chance the OP's Revolver (Is) chambered for the .44 Russian Cartridge having a 1 9/16" Cyl...What significance does the Serial No. being lower than 2032 make??

Reason I ask...Unless some new info has come to light in the past few yrs...It's always been my understanding there shouldn't be any NM#3 SA .44 Frontiers shipped to Japan...With a Serial No. under 1980...That S&W pulled from inventory for Japan having had their .44/40 Cylinders changed out with New Cylinders fitted & chambered for the .44 Russian Cartridge!!

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Masterpiece

Wow tdenis thanks for posting that fine old revolver and thanks Sal for putting on a mini school on the Frontier I bet rip off artists hate you lol.

Welcome to the forum.

That is a fine looking example and the stocks if original seem to be in excellent shape. I do agree with Sal that the side plate looks like it has been removed and reinstalled poorly. Normally the line is almost unseen when fitted.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Cool model 3. For the most information available, a letter of authenticity from the SWHF is your best bet.

swhf

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

With shipments to Japan you just never know the exact serial numbers unless you have each specific gun lettered by Roy.

Japanese guns are notorious for at least swapped cylinder but almost always have a cylinder SN of another one in the same batch.

When S&W retrofitted these Frontiers to .44 Russian for Japan, the serial numbers are stamped on the face of the cylinder to match each gun. That seemed to be "the" protocol for a parts change on pre-1959 S&W's ... ALL the major parts are numbered to the gun.

You will read in SCSW4 statements (on Japan Shipped SNs) like: MOST of SN; xxx to xxxx and ALL of xxx to xxx but you just never know for sure which ones when they use the "MOST OF" description. It would not be odd to find one out of the recorded serial number ranges. Most of these numbers on old S&Ws and where shipped, etc. is a perpetual "work in progress".

A few years back I found a 1870 American 6" barrel in pristine condition . SN 170x. It should not have had the vent hole in the barrel. I purchased it only after the selling dealer allowed me to dismantle and examine it. I was "convinced" it was correct and risked a tidy sum of money based upon my examination. It is absolutely the most beautiful early American I have ever laid my eyes and hands on in my 40 years of collecting. I immediately contacted Col. Chas. Pate (USAF/Ret) who is the sole expert on the Americans and U.S. service guns in the USA and likely the entire world. He previously had in print the highest known SN with a vent hole was SN: 1505 ( I think 05 but it is 150x something). He examined my photos and blessed it as correct. He went on to state it was made within a month of 1505 and it was 6" barrel, thus a special order. His words to me were something like ... do you think S&W would make another barrel for that 6" (without a vent hole) when they had a supply of 6" barrels in stock (with a vent hole) ? He blessed it as correct, now changing a previous known fact of observation that the vent hole went away at 150x (something).

The connection here is that collecting and verifying data on these old S&Ws will always be a "work in progress". Now with the advent of the internet, the research and discovery has done more in the past 20 years than in all the years prior, combined.

On the Frontiers with the longer cylinders it's just logic that it should be within that range of serial numbers so I used the highest serial number in the Frontier SN range.

I would not expect to find a cylinder from a 5 digit SN gun in the 25xxx and higher, 1900-1910 shipping dates to be swapped onto a Frontier.

The Japanese, it seems, kept batches of guns together for service or maintenance, Thus, a swapped cylinder is usually and almost always within that same batch.

The exception here is (and I have to get the specifics from Ed Cornett) a few international dealer that Ed knew, purchased all the NM3 Australian Colonial Police (which were well used but rather nicely maintained) that always have a matched cylinder number ... and ... Japan shipped NM3s (early post WWII time frame).

The Aussie Stock numbers can be any number in the Aussie range. This does not matter in resale that the stock number and revolver number do not match but always all the parts on the Aussie revolvers should match.

Gary Garbrecht and I were in the process of documenting the Aussie Stock numbers between members. Our thought was, perhaps, we could find matching stock numbers to swap between members to match the Stock Numbers to the NM3 Serial Numbers. That was in the beginning stages when Gary passed away.

BUT, the dealer(s) who purchased the majority of the surplus Japan shipped NM3 (as the story goes) had them shipped over in crates or drums. Some were in decent condition and others were "not so nice". Basically, they were all treated as JUNK. No one wanted a Japan shipped NM3 in the post-war era other than to hang it on a wall. It was a promotion by the purchasing dealers to sell them for something more than scrap money.

Of the latter, it seems, the importer / dealer swapped parts, barrels, cylinders just to make up as many functioning guns as possible. I have one of those (5 digit SN) with parts from 3 different but from a tight serial number range Japan shipped NM3s (within a few 100 numbers). What caught my interest on this one was the Russian style tang on the trigger guard.

Ed Cornett is the resident Master Guru on those imported post-war S&Ws. He should be stopping in to comment. Ed has an itemized list ( actual copies of the bill of lading with contents of container by serial number) of all the Australians shipped back to the USA. I'm not sure what or if he has data on the Japan shipped NM3s. Ed is truly an amazing golden asset to us all.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I am always willing to help a fellow collector, hopefully PRIOR to them making a poor decision by believing tall tales and hearsay from some seller or hustler who may be nothing more that poorly informed person or just a promotional story teller.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Hi Sal,

First of all...Given I've been collecting these for many, many years now...Both the Std. NM#3 & .44 Frontier Single-Actions...I'm well aware of all you've noted about Japanese-Shipped NM#3 Revolvers!!

The reason behind my question is you making specific note of Serial No. 2032!! Having said that...To make things a bit more clear..Was 2032 possibly a "Typo" with you having meant it to be 2072 which was the total of NM#3 .44 Frontiers produced in both .44 WCF as well as .44 Russian?? If so...That would surely explain why I was a bit confused by your post!!

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Masterpiece

Yep, you are correct. I type faster than my brain coordinates at times. I'll go fix it. thank you.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Hi Sal,

Thanks so much for clearing that up...Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some New Info that had come to light I was unaware of!!

Especially so being there are still 5...Out of the Original 8...Roy couldn't account for when he published the Original Serial No. List of .44 Frontier Single-Actions converted to .44 Russian for shipment to Japan that haven't surfaced as yet!!

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Masterpiece

Surely, the S&WHF letter is a respected asset, however, the letter is really not a letter of "authenticity" nor does not prove authenticity of the gun described in that letter.

The letter does, however, verify (per company records) the specifications (type, model, finish, barrel length, caliber, sights and / or other options as shipped, to whom, where and when, etc., for the SERIAL NUMBER and description of the S&W we presented to obtain the letter.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Model3sw,

I will have to admit that when you started out with "You asked and I will reply in complete candor and honesty" it scared me and I thought, uh oh what now! But I was pleased to see the
great information you gave and I really appreciate it.

I have a 7 day return policy and will certainly use the info you gave me to verify that the piece is what I expected. As an FYI the serial number is 5XX so that should help ID the gun.

I really appreciate the help, I am not new to guns by any stretch, I build flintlocks and over the years have built and shot competitive benchrest rifles. I recently became interested in a early Colt SAA's and also their 1877 DA's. While studying those I kept coming across the early S&W's and became interested in them as well. Let's face it, I am a sucker for most antique guns!
tdennis

How do I go about getting this letter and what does the letter cover. I am familiar with Colt letters, is this one similar? I had another gentleman tell me that I could contact Roy Jenks who I believe works or did work for S&W is this by chance who you are speaking of?
tdennis

Howdy

I'm shooting from the hip here, but I do not believe it was the New Model #3 that the Government passed over in favor of the Colt. The Government bought 1000 American Models (working from memory here) a year or so before they bought the first Colts. The American model was the first of the large, 44 caliber #3 sized S&W Top Break revolvers. But the Govt did not buy any more American models, instead choosing the Colt because of the perceived simplicity of the action. Later, in 1875 the Govt bought a few thousand Schofield models, but I am not aware of any Govt contracts for the New Model #3.

Of course I could be wrong, and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me.

The historian's letter is typically two pages on S&W letterhead. It provides some background on the model along with information specific to your gun including when, to whom and in what configuration it shipped. It will be signed by Roy Jinks, the S&W historian. You can download the letter request form from here:
Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Side plate fit on New Model 3s:

The side plate seam should appear as nothing more than a hairline ... I mean a real human hair, no more.

Check the screws under 10x or more magnification. If removed by a professional or factory you will see NO ... or just very slight ... proof of being removed. If removed by a non-professional, the damage to the screws will increase incrementally to the total booger-ed condition.

Simple test, lightly rub your thumbnail perpendicular to the seam at each of the 3 sides of the plate. If your thumbnail catches or hangs up even slightly ... it is almost certain somebody's been in there.

If a professional or expert or factory smith has been in there, you should not be able to distinguish if it had ever been removed.

If the sideplate had been removed and replaced properly is NO issue what so ever as long as done properly.

BIGGEST error here is when the side plate has been pried off. NEVER (one more time) NEVER, pry off the sideplate on ANY S&W.

Undo the retaining screws. With the side plate facing down, on a soft block of pine or something similar, tap the butt lightly against the wood. It should come out clean with little persuasion.

The sear engagements on the hammer / trigger wear after many years of use. Usually the hammer first but when this happens both should be lightly sharpened with the proper India stones.

Sharpening the engagement (sear) points with the proper stones is OK and can be done only ONCE. Once someone takes a file to the sear engagement points it will never be the same again until you find another undamaged hammer ... which is near impossible to find.

The major functions and "sweetness" of a New Model 3 originates at the sear engagement points. Once someone takes a file to the action, it messes up everything, sequence, lock up. Just awful !

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

For clarification sake, it is Roy JINKS who was the Smith and Wesson Historian for something like 40 years and now is the Historian for the Smith and Wesson Historical Foundation.

Smith and Wesson, a division of American Outdoor Brands was apparently no longer interested in providing the historical letter service and handed it off to the Historical Foundation.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Here is the direct link to the letter request form:

Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Letter Process - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I cannot quote that as an absolute point of certainty but finding this stuff 100+ years (using 1878 as 1st shipped and 1908 as a last shipped) 109 to 139 years afterward is an ongoing adventure ... better than an Indiana Jones movie to me.

As long as we all persist in the search and pool our data, we will be writing new S&W history for many years to come.

and ... as the old S&W records continue to be digitized ... image what we will learn then.

We have learned so much by the digitizing of now about 4 decades of S&W records. I think the S&WHF, under the Direction of Bill Cross) is now starting on the early 1960s . I think the oldest is the 1920s (other than Roy's personal records on shipping dates)_>

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Well I finally got the Model #3 Frontier SA 44/40 today and have been looking it over to make sure its what I was expecting, it is.

Model3SW gave me a list of things to check (Thanks!) and I just finished checking them and here are the results. So far I am happy with what I received and unless someone notices something that I didn't, I intend to keep the gun.

Here is Model3SW's items for me to check, along with my findings:

Have you chambered a .44-40 Cartridge to verify the caliber ? Yes and it fits properly.

Do the serial numbers on the butt, on the face of the cylinder, on the underside of the latch and in the rear recess of the barrel (which can be seen only with the latch raised, all match? You may need a Q-tip to clean out the recess to be able to view the numbers. Yes the serial number 5XX is the same in all three places

Not many are found in the upper conditions. Neither is this one BUT its in very good condition but will only a few patches of blue left in protected places. Actually a little better than I expected.

Honestly, it may not be worth the money to service it correctly to make it safely functional. Quite honestly I would not be afraid of shooting it with standard black powder cartridges but there is no need to endanger a decent old gun when I have others that are better choices.

Is there any rocking or clicking (looseness)? e.g. if you tightly hold the but and barrel (with 2 hands) and try to rock it back and forth as if you were attempting to open it but with the latch closed? Very tight, no noticeable play at all. When breaking down to eject cartridges. Surprisingly it is as smooth and tight as any modern gun. How does it index and lock up? Indexing seems correct but there is noticeable side and end play when in battery.

I copied and enlarged your pictures. Note that there is a visible space between the cylinder and forcing cone of the barrel while the head space (between the rear of the cylinder and flash plate) appears rather wide. Yes I agree it looks excessive so I slip a couple of rounds in the cylinder and the gap between and the rear of the cartridge and flash plate is a tight .030” which to me is more than it should be.

While this may not effect a "cautious" operation ... what happens is when the revolver is opened to extract the shells, the cylinder tries to over-ride the little stop on the latch and come popping up. Whereas, on all New Model 3s you would need to lift the latch WAY up, unscrew the cylinder counter-clockwise as you pull up to remove it.

To test, lift the latch way up, then just PULL on the cylinder without turning . If it comes straight out, you have the NM3 Frontier curse. If it unscrews firmly and tightly, it's ok. I could not pull the cylinder out with the latch up, had to unscrew it.

The good news is, whatever remains of the finish appears to be the original finish. Does not appear that it had ever been refinished. There are what appear to be vise stipples on the barrel which really baffles me. They most surely came from vise jaws since there are three different sets of dimples on the barrel. Each set on the right has a corresponding set on the opposite side. I cannot imagine a competent gunsmith doing this but someone did it for some reason.


Comments, warnings etc are welcomed, I am a novice to S&W's but would very much like to learn more about them.
tdennis

Oh, there is a question that I meant to ask and failed to. Not being familiar with S&W Model 3 operation I was unsure of how the break down latch worked. I assumed you could release the latch when the hammer was down but I had to put the hammer in the full cock position and it opens with no problem but that just doesn't sound right to me.
tdennis

You're doing fine. Just, please, have it checked by a good gunsmith before you try to shoot it and after you get the OK, use lowest "Target" loads possible.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

tdennis, if I'm reading your question correctly, you can place the hammer on half cock and open the revolver. No need to go to full cock.

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Mike Maher #283

You should be able to pull back the hammer about 1/4 inch to hear it "click" as it locks into the "opening position" or what some call the safety notch. It is not really a half-cock at all because it only needs to clear the latch. I'm guessing on the distance but about 1/4 inch is just about correct.

The next click / hammer lock up should be all the way back in the firing position.

Each click should be audible but not loud. A nice easy soft, smooth "click".

PS: the term: SAFETY NOTCH, debatable. Usually, the best safety on this single action is to keep the hammer down on an empty chamber because on these when you have the hammer back on the first click, if you accidentally hit the latch the wrong way the gun could open up spewing your rounds out.

When the hammer is all the way down the upper hook on the hammer catches a wedge on the latch so it cannot (or is less likely to) open up accidentally.

While I will sing songs of praise for the New Model 3 until the day I die ... it is not usually anyone's first choice for quick-draw.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Howdy

The term Half Cock is a little bit misleading with S&W Top Breaks. If you pull the hammer back just about 1/8" from the fully down position, you should hear a click. That is Half Cock on a S&W Top Break, unlike a Colt where Half Cock is truly halfway back. With the hammer at Half Cock, the cylinder should rotate freely in either direction, and the slot in the hammer should clear the small ledge at the bottom of the latch, allowing the latch to be lifted and the revolver to be broken open.

Pictures are worth a thousand words department:

Hammer fully down, slot in hammer engages ledge at bottom of latch, gun cannot be broken open.






Half Cock position, gun can be broken open.






Side Views: Hammer fully down, latch cannot be lifted, gun cannot be opened.






Half Cock. Hammer slot is clear of ledge on latch, gun can be opened and cylinder should be free to rotate either direction.






Also, check to see if yours has a rebounding hammer. Most of them did. First pull the trigger, then push forward on the hammer with your thumb. Keeping the trigger pulled, release your thumb and the hammer should spring back. Do not try pushing the hammer without first pulling the trigger, you may break something.

PS: The rebounding hammer on these models should absolutely never be used with the thought that they can be safely loaded with six rounds. Just like an old Colt, if you happen to drop it on the hammer with a live round under the hammer, something inside will probably shear off, and the gun will probably fire.

Here is a photo of the lockwork with the hammer at rest in the rebounded position. Notice the sear (tip of the trigger) is resting in a tiny notch in the hammer. It would not take much of a blow to the hammer spur to shear something off and the gun would probably fire.







P.P.S. Quick draw? absolutely not. But they are still great fun to shoot.

I just checked and everything works as mentioned above with the exception of being able to break the gun down while on half-cock. The cylinder does spin properly but the nose of the hammer does not clear the latch. Its very close I can pull it back just a few thousandth and it breaks open. I assume this is caused by wear but since I will probably not be firing it I see no need to see about fixing it.

I appreciate everyone's input.
Thanks
tdennis