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Old 09-30-2017, 08:11 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Question 3rd MODEL SINGLE SHOT--OLYMPIC MODEL

Please let me know if you have a 3rd Model SS numbered from 9548 to 11641 (inclusive) which DOES NOT have a so-called Olympic Chamber.

Many thanks!!

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:22 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Default "WHAT'S UP WITH THIS?"

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Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
Please let me know if you have a 3rd Model SS numbered from 9548 to 11641 (inclusive) which DOES NOT have a so-called Olympic Chamber.

Many thanks!!

Ralph Tremaine
I've been asked "What's up with this?". What's up with it is an effort to continue a study begun by Roy Jinks awhile back. He came across some (S&W) internal correspondence he ultimately concluded to indicate the regular production (as opposed to special order production) of Olympic barrels began with #9548 and continued to the end of production (#11641). Subsequent letters indicated "The total production of Olympic barrels is 2,093 units.". You will note 2,093 is the difference between 9,548 and 11,641. He went on to note "They were also supplied on special request and are found throughout the production series as replacement barrels.". It's clear from other research these special order items are in addition to the 2,093 I'll call regular production. When questioned about all this later, his response was "So it appears that the short chamber started in the 9000 serial range and maybe to the end of the series."---------and "We need a lot more data to be sure."

It strikes me he may no longer be in a position to be able to poke around in S&W files, so I decided to poke around in yours.

The bottom line on all this is yet to be determined. The Olympic models were very well received by those who could shoot better than their standard guns could-----a fairly small/elite group. Others (those I refer to as the great unwashed who thought they could shoot better than their guns could) were vociferous in their complaints about the difficulty encountered in loading these guns----which is to say they didn't know/understand when they were well off.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:26 PM
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Not to be contrary here but just as a point of information, as something I learned during my study of the .22/32 HFT's, when looking at serial numbers and quantities of guns produced one must remember some simple math facts.

If the first gun in a run is 3 and the last gun in the run is 10 you cannot subtract 3 from 10 and say that there were 7 guns produced. You would actually have 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 or 8 guns. Conversely if you say the run started at 3 and 7 guns were made you cannot end up with gun 10 as the last gun made. In this example you would have 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 so the 7th gun would be number 9 not number 10.

In Ralph's example, if the first known was 9548 and the last produced was 11,641, you would have 2,094 guns and not 2,093.

I know this may seem very insignificant to some but if we are trying to nail down exact serial numbers for specific changes, then we must be exact.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:53 PM
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I am aware of the need to be exact. I learned it (again/earlier) with my 22/40 (#682435) with the first one being 682420---and I began hypothesizing about when mine might have been shipped----2nd?----15th?. As I recall, it was 15th----but it could have been 16th---a fact which had escaped me at the time---the price of not paying attention to details. (Actually it may well have been 16th, because there is no entry in the shipping records for 421-----as in "open on the books" perhaps.)

As an aside, the 2,093 was Roy's number. I'd learned my lesson earlier. Zero is not always nothing----sometimes it's something.

Ralph Tremaine

Last edited by rct269; 10-01-2017 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:53 PM
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James, I wish I had a Smith & Wesson for every time I have had to explain this math to collectors, over the years. I would have the world's biggest gun collection ! And some still didn't get it! I would use an analogy "You are shooting pool and we know pool balls are numbered one through fifteen. If you sink 5 balls, how many balls are left on the table?" Many would say -10 balls - That's wrong, there's 11 balls. They are fooled by the numbers and forgot the quanity.They forgot to count the cue ball. Same thing as when you forget to count the first gun in the production series, which just subtracting the first serial number from the last serial number doesn't do for you. Gun books are full of this error. Ed.

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Old 10-02-2017, 11:35 AM
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Ed, I hear you. Again I was merely passing on a lesson that I learned when dealing with the 490 M.W. Robinson guns shipped by S&W in early 1914. For the first few years I was reporting the starting number and ending number of this groups by adding 490 to the first serial number.

As the examples above show, I was reporting one serial number too many. Not a big deal compared to cancer and nuclear war with North Korea, but I would hate for some future collector to think that he had a gun from a particular run or shipment because I had supplied wrong information.
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
I've been asked "What's up with this?". What's up with it is an effort to continue a study begun by Roy Jinks awhile back. He came across some (S&W) internal correspondence he ultimately concluded to indicate the regular production (as opposed to special order production) of Olympic barrels began with #9548 and continued to the end of production (#11641). Subsequent letters indicated "The total production of Olympic barrels is 2,093 units.". You will note 2,093 is the difference between 9,548 and 11,641. He went on to note "They were also supplied on special request and are found throughout the production series as replacement barrels.". It's clear from other research these special order items are in addition to the 2,093 I'll call regular production. When questioned about all this later, his response was "So it appears that the short chamber started in the 9000 serial range and maybe to the end of the series."---------and "We need a lot more data to be sure."

It strikes me he may no longer be in a position to be able to poke around in S&W files, so I decided to poke around in yours.

The bottom line on all this is yet to be determined. The Olympic models were very well received by those who could shoot better than their standard guns could-----a fairly small/elite group. Others (those I refer to as the great unwashed who thought they could shoot better than their guns could) were vociferous in their complaints about the difficulty encountered in loading these guns----which is to say they didn't know/understand when they were well off.

Ralph Tremaine
Ralph
You are going to post this thread in the SWCA side, so Roy can comment on what your assuming, correct? Some of your statements are wrong, but, I'll let Roy defend them. That is of course unless you decide not too.
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Old 10-02-2017, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
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Ralph
You are going to post this thread in the SWCA side, so Roy can comment on what your assuming, correct? Some of your statements are wrong, but, I'll let Roy defend them. That is of course unless you decide not too.
Fair enough---which statements are wrong? I ask because the statements of note (unless I overlooked something) are indicated as quotes ("---"), and come from Roy's letters and Roy's post/s (??) on the forum----which I dutifully and laboriously hand copied because my printer was sick-----as now is my new one---more's the pity.

And I posted this thread here because here is where the action is---which bodes well for meaningful responses---or in this case, the lack thereof (no responses indicating Roy's initial conclusion (as quoted) as correct---as indicated by a previous effort of mine here seeking to learn of any significant shipments of Olympic models prior to 1920). (No such shipments were indicated.) To have posted it on the SWCA side would pretty much guarantee no responses---and the validity of such would be somewhere around slim to none---more's the pity again.

Ralph Tremaine

And having sat and stared at all this since the get-go, just what is it Roy needs to defend? It seems to me a historian's task is explore the past as best he can, and draw conclusions based upon his findings. If/when he finds additional information which causes him to alter his earlier conclusions, that's the name of the game. 'Twas ever thus.

Last edited by rct269; 10-03-2017 at 02:48 AM.
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