3rd Model

raljr1 · #1 11-05-2017, 11:22 PM

I recently purchased a 3rd mode in 44 Russian, I think. This is another one of those, "Oh heck, I won that?

This is a nickel plated piece, certainly refinished. Serial number on the butt is 7100. There is some sort of lanyard loop on the bottom, different than anything I've seen. The barrel has been shortened, and I'm sure this isn't a collector piece, and I'm not even sure the serial number is original, since I'm sure it has been restamped. This has passed thru two FFLs before me an I had to go thru the NICS to pick it up, so I'm not worried about the SN.

When it arrived, the hammer would not stay cocked and the cylinder would not lock up. I can get it to stay cocked, but it looks like its missing a trigger return spring. I adjusted the small spring inside the trigger guard to get the cylinder lock to provide a reasonable lock up once I push the trigger forward to hold the hammer in full cocked position. At that point there is not so much play that I'd be afraid to shoot her.

This is one of those, I probably would never have justified the price of a collectible piece (for now), and I will plan on having fun with this if I can get everything working satisfactorily. Bore is good, measures .429, Cylinder chambers are very good, cylinder is 1.445 long and bores measure .462, hence y thought it is 44 Russian.

Can I get some ideas on exactly what version I have here and where I might go to get what I need to make is work properly.

I'm not into it for enough to hurt me if it never gets fired, so please don't tell me I was stupid for buying it based on 4 lousy pictures, my wife does that well enough without help.

I appreciate any help and opinions.

3rd model -1.jpg

3rd model-2.jpg

3rd model -3.jpg

3rd model -4.jpg

model3sw · #2 11-06-2017, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raljr1

I recently purchased a 3rd mode in 44 S&w, I think. This is another one of those, "Oh heck, I won that?

This is a nickel plated piece, certainly refinished. Serial number on the butt is 7100. There is some sort of lanyard loop on the bottom, different than anything I've seen. The barrel has been shortened, and I'm sure this isn't a collector piece, and I'm not even sure the serial number is original, since I'm sure it has been restamped. This has passed thru two FFLs before me an I had to go thru the NICS to pick it up, so I'm not worried about the SN.

When it arrived, the hammer would not stay cocked and the cylinder would not lock up. I can get it to stay cocked, but it looks like its missing a trigger return spring. I adjusted the small spring inside the trigger guard to get the cylinder lock to provide a reasonable lock up once I push the trigger forward to hold the hammer in full cocked position. At that point there is not so much play that I'd be afraid to shoot her.

This is one of those, I probably would never have justified the price of a collectible piece (for now), and I will plan on having fun with this if I can get everything working satisfactorily. Bore is good, measures .429, Cylinder chambers are very good, cylinder is 1.445 long and bores measure .462

Can I get some ideas on exactly what version I have here and where I might go to get what I need to make is work properly.

I'm not into it for enough to hurt me if it never gets fired, so please don't tell me I was stupid for buying it based on 4 lousy pictures, my wife does that well enough without help.

I appreciate any help and opinions.

Very interesting. I cannot read the barrel roll stomp but it is either an "American" (in the transition number range if SN is correct) which should be chambered for .44 S&W American, however, based upon your measurements of cylinder bore, sounds more like .44 Russian so it could be a 1st model Russian but where's the RUSSIAN MODEL on the top roll stamp ? OR, perhaps an "American" retrofit or rebored cylinder to accept the .44R round.

The width of a .44 Russian case is .453 +/- (negligible) while the width of a .44 American case is .440 +/- (negligible).

The roll stamp on the barrel does not indicate RUSSIAN MODEL thus it "seems" to be a .44 American barrel, while the cylinder bores of .463" would more likely be for the .44 Russian round.

Try chambering (but do not try to fire) a .44 Russian round. If it fits well it will likely be a .44 Russian Caliber. . A .44 Russian round will not fit in to a .44 American cylinder however the .44 Russian cylinder will chamber a .44 American but very loosely.

If you don't have a .44 Russian round use a .44 Special or a .44 Magnum which, if fit in the bore neither will seat. You'd be using the latter 2 rounds only for determining if the diameter of the cylinder bore is correct as neither will seat all the way down.

Please reply with the typed out ROLL Stamp atop the barrel By what I can see when I enlarge it, it has the stamp of an American barrel. I do not see RUSSIAN MODEL which would be the last words on the roll stamp if a Russian.

Now the the fun begins. It could be a "put together" from assorted parts, too.

If, in fact, it "is" and American you are in the transition serial number range, but only IF that re-stamped serial number is the "original" serial number.

If American it would have a serial number on the butt and underside of right stock with Assembly codes, usually (at this serial number) a letter and number stamped, eg. X1 Z3 etc. It just might have a 3 place alphanumeric code. Could be must a ( . ) period or dot stamp as one of the characters.

This assembly number would be stamped on the frame flat (under the stock on the face of the cylinder), the barrel (in the recess area under the latch) and on the latch, too.

Yes, barrel has been shortened, obvious from the front sight running into the roll stamp lettering.

The lanyard ring base should just unscrew out. Under a 10x loop see if you can make out any of the original serial number which would be much smaller and much more ornate / vintage type-style.

Even though refinished it doesn't look half bad but there would no points here for collectors value unless a factory refinish which seems not.

Check under left side frame flat for a date of either 3 or 4 numbers separated by a ( . ) period which represents a month and year. e.g. 4.22 would be April 1922 and 10.56 would be October 1956, so on and so forth.

Report back to us.

raljr1 · #3 11-06-2017, 03:35 AM

I cannot find any date code or other numbers anywhere on this piece besides the restamped sn. Roll stamp reads Springfield Mass U.S.A. July 10, 60. Jan 17. Feb 17. July 11, 65. & Aug 24, 69. 44 magnum cartridge chambers (not fully, of course) in 5 of the six chambers. The last cylinder bore is slightly smaller and measures .456, and for some reason the cartridge will not chamber. I've ordered a box of 44 Russian and will advise of it chambers properly.

JSR III · #4 11-06-2017, 09:15 AM

Bob, not wanting to sound like your wife, as I have one of those myself, but your opening statement struck a cord with me.

Quote:

I recently purchased a 3rd mode in 44 Russian, I think. This is another one of those, "Oh heck, I won that

Since you state this is "another" one of those, I take from that that you do this or have done this more than once. If that IS the case, rather than throwing out (what I can only assume are low ball offers) at several such guns, why not pool those offers together and buy a righteous gun from the get go?

Again, not trying to nag you here but really asking it in the form of a question or perhaps even a suggestion.

I myself have purchased non working antiques in order to play with them and learn what makes them tick and to see if I can bring them back to life but they are usually correct guns with a problem so that if I am able to fix them they are all real when done. Again, just curious.

raljr1 · #5 11-06-2017, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

Bob, not wanting to sound like your wife, as I have one of those myself, but your opening statement struck a cord with me.

Since you state this is "another" one of those, I take from that that you do this or have done this more than once. If that IS the case, rather than throwing out (what I can only assume are low ball offers) at several such guns, why not pool those offers together and buy a righteous gun from the get go?

Again, not trying to nag you here but really asking it in the form of a question or perhaps even a suggestion.

I myself have purchased non working antiques in order to play with them and learn what makes them tick and to see if I can bring them back to life but they are usually correct guns with a problem so that if I am able to fix them they are all real when done. Again, just curious.

Your point is well taken. This is only the second piece I've done this on. First one was a Regulation Police 32 target. By now I have $1000 in it and it is fully serviceable but not in perfect mechanical order. I got that one up and running mostly on my own.

This one I have just under $700 in. And if I can get the trigger to return and lock the hammer back reliable, it will be shootable.

I have begun to look at better examples of collectibles, and realistically I can afford to spend more than I am typically willing to.

Your advice is sound, and this will probably be the last time I hit the bid button on a piece in less than desirable condition.

Robert

glowe · #6 11-06-2017, 11:46 AM

I sure looks like a 1st Model American to me and would have been chambered only in 44 American, or 44-100 as the cartridge was known back then.

iby · #7 11-06-2017, 02:16 PM

Looks like an interlocking hammer??
Were any first models made in 44 russian?

jleiper · #8 11-06-2017, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I sure looks like a 1st Model American to me and would have been chambered only in 44 American, or 44-100 as the cartridge was known back then.

It has the larger trigger pin even though the enlarged boss has been polished off. Also has the interlocking hammer so it is at least a 2nd Model American or first Russian.
Does it have a pointed or flat trigger? That will narrow the serial range.
Joe

glowe · #9 11-06-2017, 02:51 PM

I do not believe it is not a 2nd Model. 2nd Model revolvers had a bolster under the trigger pin and had no bug screw at the pivot pin. There were 1st Model Russians, but they should be stamped on the rib "Russian Model" after the patent dates. As Sal states, it is most likely a transition model, but I do not think the pin bolster has been removed. I have a feeling the gun could be "assembled" from various parts. Serial number is not right and maybe we are seeing a "put-together" Model 3?

model3sw · #10 11-06-2017, 05:47 PM

Just as a "FYI", I own an American Transition, SN: 7301. Mine was factory refurbished by S&W in November 1926.

When I purchased it in 1995 an old timer I spoke with on the phone arranged to meet me in Tulsa. It was in RIG that had become hardened, with paper wrapped around it that was stuck to it as if glued on. He left it with me for the night on a handshake (so I could clean off the RIG) and purchased it the next morning at the pre-agreed price for it was, in fact, exactly as he described in on the phone. I advised him NOT to unpack it nor clean it.

2 "quick" pix attached. I could not get the macro focus on the roll stamp properly but the roll stamp is exactly the same as yours.

If yours is truly SN 7100, I don't think we'd come up with one that has a closer serial number than my 7301.

It is near new or 99%, as refurbished. It is the nicest Transition I have ever found. In fact the upper latch not an American style latch (the Americans had barrel shaped ends with fine checkering on ends on the latch) but rather a New Model 3 (non target variation) style latch but numbered to the gun, as would be done in a factory refurbish job.

We're talking 1926, when craftsmen were REALLY craftsman and took pride in their work.

I have a letter on it which shows original ship date but not even the S&WHF has any documents on the 1926 Refurbish.

This one had been fit for a non-factory extension stock as evident by the drilled and tapped holes along the back strap and on the butt now skillfully closed with flush "filler" screws.

American 1st models did not have the "hook" on the hammer. In the transition serial numbers is where the hooked hammer starts to show up. Hook meaning it interlocks with the latch to help prevent accidental opening.

raljr1 · #11 11-06-2017, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I do not believe it is not a 2nd Model. 2nd Model revolvers had a bolster under the trigger pin and had no bug screw at the pivot pin. There were 1st Model Russians, but they should be stamped on the rib "Russian Model" after the patent dates. As Sal states, it is most likely a transition model, but I do not think the pin bolster has been removed. I have a feeling the gun could be "assembled" from various parts. Serial number is not right and maybe we are seeing a "put-together" Model 3?

I would absolutely agree that the serial number is very unlikely to be the original serial number. I also cannot find any other numbers on the gun not on the cylinder Not underneath the extractor and all the normal places I might look I can't find any numbers. They could have all been buffed off, that's possible. Is there anywhere in side that a serial number might be stamped on the side plate or inside the frame? Also does anyone have a schematic or anywhere I can get a schematic in in one of the older books might help me understand where to look.?

Robert

raljr1 · #12 11-06-2017, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleiper

It has the larger trigger pin even though the enlarged boss has been polished off. Also has the interlocking hammer so it is at least a 2nd Model American or first Russian.
Does it have a pointed or flat trigger? That will narrow the serial range.
Joe

I'll get a closer picture of the trigger for you when I get home later this evening

Robert

Kurusu · #13 11-06-2017, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I sure looks like a 1st Model American to me and would have been chambered only in 44 American, or 44-100 as the cartridge was known back then.

If the caliber is .44 Russian it's a Russion first model. They are identical to the American except for the caliber.

model3sw · #14 11-06-2017, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurusu

If the caliber is .44 Russian it's a Russion first model. They are identical to the American except for the caliber.

The only thing we know for sure it that the BARREL is an AMERICAN barrel.

NO "RUSSIAN MODEL" on the roll stamp then it is NOT a Russian model.

It would not be odd if someone had reamed out the bores of the cylinder to accept the .44 R cartridge.

Perhaps the OP can post some photos focused down into the cylinder bores.

model3sw · #15 11-06-2017, 06:28 PM

The serial number could be correct. I've seen some very rough old Model 3s refurbished with the serial number re-stamped in a non factory manner.

ON a new Model 3 you can be certain because all the parts are numbered on this American ... likely not but it really doesn't matter because it won't end up in the NRA Museum.

Need to check the stocks, if original the numbers should match ... as should the assembly codes on the side of the frame (under stocks) barrel, face of cylinder and underside of latch.

jleiper · #16 11-06-2017, 06:50 PM

Look at the trigger guard where it fits into the frame!!
Joe

jleiper · #17 11-06-2017, 07:00 PM

Here is what it should look like as a transitional. Original finish.
DSCN0758a.jpg
These have small threaded hole on the right side for the hinge pin.
The later hinge pin right side hole is larger. This should have the small trigger pin but it seems large to me but without the enlarged trigger pin boss/bolster which could have been polished off. The serial is about right for the transitional period before the second set of Russian changes were implemented (enlarged trigger pin, reinforced trigger pin boss and improved hinge pin).
Joe

rct269 · #18 11-06-2017, 07:03 PM

Chicoine's ANTIQUE FIREARMS-ASSEMBLY/DISASSEMBLY has schematics on all the big bore top-breaks.

His GUNSMITHING Guns of the OLD WEST speaks to fixing what ails them.

Ralph Tremaine

raljr1 · #19 11-06-2017, 11:08 PM

3rd model-5.jpg

3rd model-6.jpg

3rd model-7.jpg

3rd model-8.jpg

Pretty sure these have been reamed. Looking closely at it and using bore gauges and a micrometer, the diameters in the cylinder bores measure from .455 to almost .468. At the front face of the cylinder the bores are more in the .435 to.445 range.

There is a photo of the trigger as well.

Again, I can find no other numbers on this gun. Not on the stocks, cylinder, barrel, latch, nowhere.

Thank you for all of the input so far. I'm getting an education.

raljr1 · #20 11-07-2017, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleiper

Look at the trigger guard where it fits into the frame!!
Joe

I noticed that as well. It protrudes below the frame at the rear. I've had it off and thought perhaps I had installed it incorrectly......I'll look again, but it seems much thicker at the rear than it should be.

Robert

raljr1 · #21 10-19-2018, 05:13 PM

So I sent this to Chris Hirsch to have him make it shootable. He had a correct trigger guard, made a trigger return spring and a couple of screws. Now it functions as it should. Kudos to Chris, and thanks.

Robert

raljr1 · #22 10-20-2018, 10:55 AM

It's still homely, but now I can shoot it.

Robert