MORE NEW INFO!! See Post #64 NEW INFO! See Post #34

Last week I was in our local Cabela’s and they had recently put out what I assumed was the remnants of a collection that had had the better stuff already hi-graded. On display was around 20 or so top-break revolvers of various manufacture, mostly S&W’s. All were in mediocre condition but caught my attention because I am more of a Form & Function type of collector and not very picky about condition as long as the price is right. (These were priced between $50 and $150.) Right in the middle of the shelf was the revolver pictured below.

A 4 inch 38 Single Action, 3rd Model…….........Target!



I figured that it being right was probably pretty thin, but for $99.99 I couldn’t walk away.










I spent a couple of days cleaning it up as much as possible and checking serials, etc. (I’ve had more pleasure and entertainment for my $100 than any trip to the casino where I would probably come home with nothing.)


Anyway, here we go:
Serial number on front strap = 19056
Serial number on barrel & cylinder = 91227 (Rats!)
However… Serial number on rear sight = 19056 ! (The mystery deepens.)
No number on the back of the extractor star, which appears to be in the white or plated. (Replacement?)
No number on the stocks.


The barrel’s serial puts it as from a 38 DA 2nd Model, but the barrel patent dates don’t match anything as posted in the Neal and Jinks book. The front sight looks like a standard half moon but with a slightly flattened top.


Also, the book shows the 3rd Model as having a rebounding firing pin. This one doesn’t and I, for the life of me, can’t see how it should work. It also has a somewhat buggered safety notch, but I think I can save that. (I would guess that the Single Shot 1st has the rebound?. My SS 2nd does, but I currently can’t get into it to see how it works.)


Another oddity is the bottom of the butt frame and the entire backstrap are pristine original blue. (They’re beautiful!) I can understand the bottom and the lower half of the backstrap as they have been protected by the stocks, but I have no idea how the upper part of the strap survived the degradation of the rest of the gun.


So! As I see it I have one of three possibilities.

1. The owner had a longer barrel and decided he wanted a 4 inch, replaced the barrel and cylinder and moved the rear sight.

2. The owner had a 1st Model Single Shot and wanted a revolver , so he replaced the barrel and cylinder and moved the rear sight. (I like this one.)
( However, the serial is out of the range shown in the book for 1st Model Single Shots.)

3. It came from the factory this way on a special order. (I really like this one, but………)


I suppose I should send for a letter, but what should I describe it as, a 1st Model Single Shot or a .38 Single Action 3rd Model?


Maybe just a “Model of 1891” and the frame serial…??

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I'll venture that the pictured revolver is a .38 Single Action, Third Issue. The serial number on the front strap would indicate the Target variety single shot especially with the extension grips (stocks). I can't access my reference books to add much more but with the mixed serial numbers, I would surmise that the 'revolver' is made-up. The pistol probably started life as a single shot and a previous owner added the revolver barrel and cylinder. Check the length of the barrel also as I believe the 4" is erroneous.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike,
Just remeasured... It is a 4 inch. I agree that it is "made up". I'm just trying to decide if it is worth the cost of a letter to satisfy my curiosity as to what it started out as.... And there is always the chance it was a special order 38 Single Shot and might have a name associated with it.. (I like guns with named original owners...)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

That letter would almost double the cost of your acquisition, but still cheap. You just do not run across 38 SAs often. The rear sight just came along with the latch meaning that there was another barrel on it originally and the replacement 38 DA barrel/cylinder may have needed a latch. The question that only a letter will answer is whether the original barrel was a SS or a revolver.

Personally, My money is on a SS barrel since the gun has target stocks. It is also known that many SS revolvers were sold with serial numbers above 15,000 which is where Roy's lists end.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

That is a factory target rear sight. I have one but they are hard to find.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I'm going with #2----the frame started life as a single shot.

The range of 1st Model SS serial numbers in the book is woefully incomplete----certainly not from the lack of trying; but the last chance they had to update that list was 1975. (I have four 1st Model SS's (6/8/10" .22's, and one 8" .32. NONE of the .22's numbers are shown in the book---two are higher than the highest shown (18873), and one is in the 17000's (None of those are shown.), but they all letter. The 8" .32 IS in the book---as a .22--and it letters as a 10" .22---a boo-boo. Officially it remains a mystery gun. I've figured out exactly how the boo-boo happened, but that's as far as it goes.

My best guess, which elicits no argument from a number of other SS aficionados, is the .22 SS list/count is shy 250-300 guns. We are hard pressed to argue about the count of .32's and .38's. (The .32's are most certainly off by my one, but that's as far as that goes too.)

All my 1st's have rebounding hammers---as do all my 2nds (6/8/10")---as does my .38 SA 3rd Target.

It's perhaps noteworthy my .38 SA 3rd Target letters as such, but has an unnumbered latch/sight. The prevailing wisdom (Jinks') is that the gun was born a standard 6", and was converted via swapping the sights to fill an order for a target model---and given no need to number the latch/sight, they didn't.

As to how the rebounding hammer works, I don't know; but Mr. Maher (I think) recently noted it had to do with the stirrup---ostensibly a different stirrup than those in earlier models.

As far as the letter goes, tell the folks what you think it is (a "put together"--and why); and see what they have to say. Tell them everything you can. The less they have to guess, the better the letter.

Ralph Tremaine

One little thing I don't quite understand. If the original owner changed out the barrel and moved the rear target sight to the new barrel, why didn't he also move the front target sight?? After all, they were a pair.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I thought of that and tried reversing the stirrup. But as it has been said, it wouldn't swing that way......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Who knows what the original owner did? Who knows what the second owner did? Who knows how many owners did what?

It occurred to me there were no 4" SS's. Next it occurred to me different length barrels may have different height sights. I don't KNOW about such things, but it occurred to me. So I checked the sight height on a 6" 1st SS against an 8" 1st. They were different!! Then I thought, "Damn, you're smart!!" Then I measured something (the 6" I think) against a 10, and they were the same.(!!) Then I thought, "Well, maybe I'm not as smart as I'd like to think I am."

Then I went back to "Who knows how many owners did what?"

Then I decided it was too late to think about such things----quittin' time!!

Ralph Tremaine

A different stirrup??

I'm no help. I can pretty much take these things apart and put them back together in my sleep. I can sit and stare at them, and see exactly HOW they work. BUT, when you start getting picky about WHY they work HOW they work, then I'm not so cocksure anymore.

It occurs to me Gary Lowe (glowe) very likely has the .38 SA's that came before the 3rd. The book says they don't have rebounding hammers. Gary's a pretty hip dude, and very likely knows the answer to this question. If he doesn't---and if he has examples of the earlier guns to compare with the 3rd I know he has, then he can almost certainly sit and stare, and come up with the answer in very short order.

Ralph Tremaine

So you got this gun for 100 bucks ,would that be considered a really good deal it seems it would ,aren't these fairly rare ? Or is the fact that it is a " put together gun " a price killer as far as value goes.

As I noted in an earlier PM to you about this gun, I have never picked up a 38 SA 3rd that had a rebounding hammer. Mine do not and I believe that is the way they came from the factory. Maybe Ralph can comment on his single shots, since I have never got into collecting them.

To add to Ralph's conversation, my late manufacture target 38 SA, 3rd letters as a target gun with standard hard rubber stocks. It has no numbers stamped on the latch.

As for the front sight, they are not easy to change and looks like the owner sighted it in by simply filing the half-moon sight until it hit wherever it was aimed - good enough. With the obvious signs of heavy use on the frame, maybe the 22 barrel just rusted or shot out and had to be replaced with something.

Attached Images

Factory Ship Letter4.jpg (134.2 KB, 93 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Ralph,
Does your 6" 1st Model SS have a rebounding hammer? As the 1st Model SS was designed from the 3rd Model SA, it would make sense that they would be the same. (And the "book" is in error...??). I know my 2nd Model SS rebounds. Probably one of the patent dates applies to this..

Gary,
Have you tried tracking down Mr. Korges? This is one area where my wife and I share the collection. I like the guns and she is a genealogist. (a marriage made in heaven.) (BTW, we think the same concerning the front sight..)

As for what the "put together" does to the value.? It sure doesn't help it any, but I'm confident it is more than I paid.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Fortunately that name was an easy one on Ancestry.com. Only one person was an adult living in the early 1900s.

As for value, if you find out what the original configuration was, I would look for that barrel and put it together in its original configuration. Would be worth more than the 38 DA barrel, but who know how much more.

Fred J. Korges was born in Germany June 1869 and may have immigrated to the USA that same year.
He married Eugenia. Eugenia was born in Lavaca Co, TX Oct 1889.
He resided in Shiner, Lavaca Co, TX 1900.
He resided in Victoria, Victoria Co, TX 1920.
Fred J. Korges and Eugenia had 8 children
Death Date was 20 Nov 1946 in Victoria, Victoria, Texas

1910 Census - Fred J Korges
Birthplace: Germany
Residence: Justice Precinct 6, Lavaca, Texas
Marital Status: Married
Race : White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1869
Father's Birthplace: Germany
Mother's Birthplace: Germany
Household Fred J Korges
Gender/Age M 40 yrs

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Gary
SWCA 2515

deadin, the .38 SA, 3rd stirrup and the Single Shot stirrups have an angle where the pivot pin attaches them to the hammer(s). This angled corner bears upon the hammer to effect the rebounding hammer feature. I.e., ".. it wouldn't swing that way...... " - Exactly! A quick check of two .38 SA, 3rds, two Mexican Models, a 1st Model Single Shot and a 2nd Model SS all have rebounding hammers.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike,
That's what I figured it had to be but I couldn't figure out how to get the spring hooked up. I will go into it again and take a fresh look....

Thanks,

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Dean, although counter intuitive, center the mainspring in the frame and tighten the strain screw. This arches the spring and shortens the length to the stirrup. I place an 1/8" drill between the frame and spring (near the 'hooks' just rear of the side plate) so that I can pry the spring over to the stirrup.

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Mike Maher #283

Money well spent, even if it ends up as mancave wall art.

You have to help me out here Mike. I have three 38 SAs that the hammer does not rebound and could swear that I have inspected others that were the same?? I pull the triggers and the hammer falls against the frame and stays there? Is there a chance the stirrups are installed upside down? I checked my 38 SA 2nd and find the stirrup is installed the same way and also no rebound, but I am not sure about how that model was intended to function. The guns seem to have perfect hammers and function well, but no rebound? I have revolvers with rebounding hammers that do not require the firing of a cartridge to affect the rebound, but how about the 38 SA, 3rd?

Attached Images

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	P1010010.jpg (76.8 KB, 89 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Well, I turned the stirrup over and now I have rebound. Gary, it looks just like your stirrups with the slight curve going down. The hammer spring kind of reaches the end of its affect just before the firing pin reaches the primer. The hammer is thrown forward into the primer from inertia (?) and then rebounds under the influence of the stirrup riding up in the hooks of the hammer spring. Also as long as the trigger is back the locking block stays up in the cylinder notch. As soon as the trigger is released the block drops and the cylinder is free to spin. Something isn't right here....(Or do I have something in the trigger/locking block assembled wrong?)

Mike, With the trigger back and the hammer in the rebound position is the half-cock notch engaged? If not, can you press forward on the hammer and get it to move? If it moves does the stirrup come partly disengaged from the hooks of the hammer spring?

I will try to get some pictures but it might be a day or two. (We're having company for a few days and I don't know if they would appreciate me being in the back room taking pictures.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

A "put together" is essentially instantly removed from collector status, and relegated to "shooter" status---never mind the condition. Accordingly, the value is less. It occurs to me this condemnation may not necessarily apply to pretty much any military/police model (those sold to/used by any military/police organization---and exposed to their armorers). I reckon those guns are expected to carry mismatched numbers---and any with matching numbers are regarded as exceptions----and may also be regarded with a certain amount of suspicion. (This gun was a screaming bargain----just for the internal parts---and rear sight.)

I once had a Registered Magnum which raised all sorts of suspicion-----nickel, 5", humpback hammer---one of 15 (as I recall) shipped to Lt. SO&SO, Director of Training, Indianapolis P.D. The gun seemed to be brand new---all numbers match----just plain spiffy---with no suspicion raising markings visible---on the outside. Needless to say, the auction house billed it as "original finish". Based upon what I've just told you, you might well figure Lt. SO&SO took it out of the shipping carton, and put it on the top shelf of the closet---until he retired. Then he took it home and put it in his sock drawer. Whatever, it most certainly had NEVER seen ANY police duty use---no way---now how.

So---it's time for its welcome bath. WHOOPS!!! Here's a star on the side of the grip frame----stars are ALWAYS on the butt---except when they're not. Other stars appeared on the cylinder (under the ejector), on the crane, the barrel (inside the ejector rod housing), and on the inside of the sideplate---every place it has place. Date codes, typically 3-4 digit numbers were missing. There was a 5 digit number on the side of the grip frame---could have been a (complete) date---could have been one of two different dates as I recall. So---inside is immaculate---and everything in there looks to be brand new. Bottom Line: This is a brand new gun---if it weren't for all these stars. I figured it had been completely rebuilt and refinished---and a damn fine job it was.

The moral of this story is all things are not necessarily as they appear. Look with your eyes---and with your mind.

Ralph Tremaine

Dean, "Mike, With the trigger back and the hammer in the rebound position is the half-cock notch engaged?" NO. The half-cock is about 1/16" back when the hammer is moved to the rear. "..can you press forward on the hammer and get it to move?" YES. It moves from the rebound position to the firing pin being exposed through the recoil shield. Let go and it rebounds. "If it moves does the stirrup come partly disengaged from the hooks of the hammer spring?" NO; something else is not correct. Without a hands-on inspection, I can only guess that the strain screw has been shortened (with the intent to lessen the trigger pull) or the mainspring has been replaced.

When you connected the mainspring with the stirrup and assuming that you ran the strain screw all the way in; did the mainspring hit/rub against the frame just rear of the side plate cutout or was the mainspring free of the top strap? My fear is that either the strain screw was shortened or that the main spring is a replaced piece. A quick check is to back out the strain screw until there is enough room to add a spacer (a penny comes to mind) and slowly tighten the strain screw while checking the revolver's action. The object of this test is to arch the main spring enough to eliminate the gap from the "hooks" to the stirrup cross-bar.

I'm out of here for tonight; burned too many brain cells. See you tomorrow. Good luck. You are on the right track.

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Mike Maher #283

Dean, I re-read your post #20: "Also as long as the trigger is back the locking block stays up in the cylinder notch. As soon as the trigger is released the block drops and the cylinder is free to spin." The cylinder stop ('locking block') is trigger activated. The trigger to hammer sear engagement is critical.

Bear with me here as many things are about to happen. I.e., when the hammer is moved rearward, the trigger sear drops into the half-cock notch which, in turn, pivots the front of the trigger UP towards the bottom strap below the cylinder. This upward movement of the trigger presses UP on the rear of the cylinder stop and pivots the front DOWN to release the cylinder. As the hammer is moved farther rearward to the full-cock, the trigger moves to the rear of the trigger guard which drops the front of the trigger DOWN allowing the cylinder stop spring to push UP on the front of the stop and lock the cylinder in battery. This may need to be read several times to fully grasp the relationship of these three parts. The relationship between these parts is critical.

Back to your quote (above). I think that if you pull the side plate that you'll find that this relationship has been 'messed' with. I think that the hammer to trigger sear engagement has been filed upon. A picture or two would help.

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Mike Maher #283

Both stirrups curve down at the rear. Is that how your gun is set up? If so, I may need a longer strain screw, as the action seems a little weak?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Mike,
I tried the “penny under the strain screw” bit and it didn’t seem to make much difference. However after comparing my hammer and trigger with the pictures Gary posted I think I may just put this thing back together and hang it on the wall. It looks like someone went crazy with a Dremel or something on the sear notch, the half-cock notch seems to be gone and I think the sear nose may be shortened……. It’s amazing that it still seems to function… The hammer cocks, the cylinder rotates and locks when it’s supposed to. (I’m still a little hazy on when the locking block should drop freeing the cylinder.) I’m also still trying to figure out just what powers the rebound. Maybe my attached pictures will show my dilemma. As to the replaced mainspring, I’m not saying it hasn’t been. If I remember right I measured it when I had it out and it was 3 1/4”.
Anyway, here are some pictures with the positions of the hammer, trigger and cylinder stop……


Hammer = Rebounded (all at rest)
Trigger = Forward
Cylinder = Free


Hammer = Cocked
Trigger = Forward
Cylinder = Locked


Hammer = Forward (before it rebounds)
Trigger = Back
Cylinder = Locked
(Note the position of the stirrup cross bar in the mainspring hook.)


Hammer = Rebounded
Trigger = Back
Cylinder = Locked

Back to top and repeat....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Dean, I don't wish to be the bearer of bad news and please don't shoot the currier. The photos are what I needed. You need a trigger and a hammer. I can't sugar coat the news. The sear on the trigger is gone; filed or? The hammer has been filed at the full-cock. The trigger sear should be long enough to sit in the small notch just below the bottom of the hand. The interaction of these parts as I described above is what should happen. Check for the parts from 'the sources'. Mike

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Mike Maher #283

Mike,
I already realized this. As I stated :
Never know when some parts may show up. As it stands, I'm still happy with the purchase.....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Dean, Thank you. The parts DO show up as the 1st & 2nd single shots are the same and are relatively common. It took me over four years to get a mainspring for another less encountered revolver; but I found it. If I see the parts; I'll let you know. Keep looking.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike, Was the 2nd Model SS hammer and trigger still made to accept the hand and locking bolt?

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Dean, good question. The hammer and the trigger are identical but without the hand and spring installed on the hammer. You need to install those parts from the one you have.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike, Thanks for all the info. I will put these parts on my shopping list for Reno. (Hopefully some parts sellers will show up....)
In the meantime I'm still trying to decide if I should drop the $65 on a letter to find out if I am restoring a 3rd Model SA or a first Model SS with a conversion front end....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

In the for what it's worth department, I have a custom "reconstruction" of a 2nd Model SS---essentially unrecognizable as such. The hammer had been likewise reconfigured, and lightened to the point it would very likely float. I had occasion to take it to my gunsmith to have a seized pin removed/replaced. Among other comments he made when I picked it up, he asked, "Oh by the way, did you know your hammer is cracked?"

I went into full panic mode!! "Where the hell am I going to get another hammer?!!" I made note of all this here on the forum, and had three hammers available to me within a week---and two of them were as new. As an aside, these hammers were less than 50 miles from home.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, Thanks for giving me hope.... (And postage for a hammer shouldn't set me back much...)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

The letter on this gun has arrived!
As suspected, it originally shipped as a .22 SS 1st Model (Model of 1891). It was sent to Marcus Hartley Co., NY, NY. Blue finish, 10" barrel and Extension grips. Sent Aug. 31, 1900 (for you who track these the serial is #19056)
I actually got double information on this letter as I included the serial that is on the barrel and cylinder. It is from a .38 SA Second Model 4" blue shipped to M.W. Robinson, NY, NY on Nov.5, 1883.
So at sometime an owner decided he wanted a 3rd Model SA and went ahead and made one. (Complete with moving the adjustable rear sight from the .22.)

I still haven't quite figured out the rebounding hammer/half-cock, so if anybody happens to have the hammer spring out of their 1891 SS 1st and/or 3rd model SA .38, I would be most appreciative for a length measurement.
The one I have mikes to 3.246" but there is a slight set in the spring, so let's call it 3 1/4".

Now the question is, should I just leave it as it is. (I don't have much in it) or should I try to track down a somewhat correct barrel??? ($$$?)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Really depends on how much satisfaction you will get when the gun is back to its original configuration. Personally, to me there are plenty of hobbies where one spends buckets of money and has not much to show thereafter. Owning a boat is one prime example. (Basically a hole in the water that one pours money into)

If you aren't taking next months rent to fund your project then I say if it makes you happy then go for it. We work, we earn and we spend. Choosing what to spend it on is very personal. I have friends that think that collecting guns and putting them in a safe or display case is ridiculous. I enjoy it so I really don't care what they think.

Personally, I would take on the project and enjoy the hunt.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Well you did name the thread you " love" a challenge ,my vote is fix the gun as close as original as you can ,keeping track of everything and posting hete along the way for us less knowledgable fellows to learn from . Learned much from your thread already. then again it's easy to say that as its not my money we are talking about spending.

Certainly no harm, no foul, for adding a single shot barrel to the Model 0f 1891 frame, but the problem is where to find one? You now know the barrel/cylinder assembly are not even from a 38 SA, 3rd, so putting a SS barrel on it would be much more appropriate than the barrel you have now. Besides, you can then look for the matching frame to go along with the 38 SA, 2nd barrel.

A few years ago, barrels were still found in surplus in-the-white as-new condition without any extractor parts, but I have not seen one for sale in a long time. Add to that, the ejector system and rear extractor plate will be even harder to come across. Good luck with the challenge(s).

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I think this will turn out to be an apples to oranges comment-------------but.

For openers, I'll pull down the gun I'm going to be talking about here; and measure the spring (which is going to be shorter than yours---or should be shorter). I'll also pull down one which should be stock. If the stock spring measures appreciably different from yours, I'll keep at it until something makes sense----or until I run out of guns to take apart. And don't hold your breath, because this may take a while.

My 10" 1st SS is, at first glance, as stock as a stove---it isn't. I put it back together after its bath, and nothing---it wouldn't go to full cock. Some sitting and staring ensued. I came to notice a little notch just a little above the (regular) notch where the bottom of the mainspring goes----and where I'd put it. So, for lack of any other clue, I reinstalled the spring in the upper notch----and all is well. Then I compared the action (cocking effort/trigger pull) with a stock gun----and WOW!!! It was sweet!! So once again I had added to what I know, but don't necessarily understand.

Stand by.

Ralph Tremaine

Thanks Ralph,
I can't tell you why, but after the "sitting and staring ensued" I feel that my mainspring may be a little short. Check the second picture in post #25 and note the position of the stirrup in the mainspring fork when the hammer is fully down. It seems to me that the spring should be a little longer. I had to manually push the hammer forward to get this picture. The normal hammer fall carries forward (very weakly) and then rebounds to the position shown in picture #3.
In my experience, a pencil placed down a barrel is normally ejected across the room when struck by a regular hammer blow. This one appears to be fighting the mainspring for its last bit of travel and is so weak the pencil doesn't even clear the barrel. I wonder if it would even set off the primer.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Your mainspring doesn't appear to be short---first crack out of the box (my box) comes in at 3.245" (with a slight set). I'll do more if you wish. As to shooting pencils across the room, my .38 SA 3rd is the only one a pencil will fit in----------and it (also) doesn't clear the barrel. As to popping a primer, I just now dropped the hammer in a 1st SS (.22), and it went bang. (And NOW---I'm going to have to clean it!!!)

Now, the 3.245" spring is from a .32 1st SS, the pencil from the .38 SA 3rd, and the bang is from a .22 1st SS----so the scientific process is not at work here. If you wish, I'll measure the springs from the .38 and the .22., but at some point I'm going to want to bet on the outcome of all this so I get paid for all this work.

The second picture in #25 shows the hammer cocked----and looks exactly like mine---cocked. The second picture also doesn't jibe with your words ("push the hammer forward"), so which picture are we talking about? I'm guessing it's the third picture---hammer down before rebounding---which also looks exactly like mine-----with the hammer pushed forward. (And I sure am glad you took these pictures, because I didn't have the first clue how the rebounding hammer worked until you did---and until I too pushed the hammer forward---and let go of it. And then I said, "Well I'll be damned!!")

Ralph Tremaine

And as to what you should do with it, you have two choices. Choice #1: Make it (sort of) like it was when it left Springfield---call it the "close but no cigar" choice. Choice #2: As one is taught on the first day of Problem Solving School, the first alternative solution to any problem is to do nothing. If you do nothing, maybe the situation will improve---or go away. These possibilities are mostly applicable to people problems---like the guy you hired, and are now learning it was a really dumb thing to have done----but maybe if you give it more time this mental midget will catch on and become less of a problem---maybe even a super star. This gun is what it is---not going to change unless you change it. And what it is is exactly what the guy who made it that way wanted it to be---call it the honoring history solution. Bottom Line: You're the man in charge. You can do something or nothing. If you come to believe you're losing sleep over it, make it go away and be somebody else's problem----kind of like firing the guy you never should have hired.

Ralph,
Thanks again..I don't think it will be necessary to measure any more springs. These are too close to be an accident.
You're right, it was the third picture I was referring to. (Late night last night....) Does your stirrup come partly "unshipped" when the hammer is all the way forward? (As in picture #3)
Also does your 1st Model have the hand and cylinder bolt installed? or is this something the "converter" did when they added the barrel and cylinder? I wonder because the cylinder is only locked while the trigger is back. As soon as the trigger is released, the cylinder is free to turn. (Not a good thing in a revolver. Makes it seem like some of the European ones that used a friction spring on the cylinder arbor that was supposed keep everything from moving.) (Didn't really work all that well.)
I think it was Gary (Glowe) that thought my hammer was screwed up, so that may be another part I need. I'm beginning to think that I like the looks of this configuration and may just put it in the collection as an "example" of a .38 SA 3rd Model. (Not a "real" one). Finding a SS barrel, extractor AND hammer may be more effort than it's worth.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

That is a neat project for not much money. I would personally find the correct barrel and then put it on the wall or display case and...

CALL IT ART!

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Rather be outdoors

Yes, my stirrup comes "unshipped" when the hammer is all the way forward-----------which is why the hammer rebounds. Sit and stare at the mainspring (and the "unshipped" stirrup) when the hammer is all the way forward. Ponder the direction the spring wants to move. Now release the hammer----verrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly-----and watch what you've already figured out when you pondered the direction the spring wants to move---watch the "unshipped" stirrup get "shipped". Pretty sneaky, isn't it?

Figuring stuff like this out is not for regular folks like you and me. When I was whiling away my misspent youth as a weekend warrior racing sports cars, my partner in crime was one with a master's degree in mechanical engineering---and thank God for small favors. He saved me from going in the wrong, or in other than the best direction more than once. The best example was when we were going to install a suspension piece which was to mount to the chassis at one end and to the rear axle at the other end. I'm on a creeper under the car determining how it should be mounted. Having done so (after 4-5 minutes), I called out, "We're going to have to move the gas tank." The response: "MOVE THE GAS TANK????!!!!!!!!!---GET OUT OF THERE!!!!!" And with that he reached down, grabbed my ankles, and dragged me out from under the car. He dropped down onto the creeper, slid under the car---and was back out in about 30 seconds. "See what you think of that.", he said. He had simply flipped the piece 180 degrees (which made no difference in function). I said, "Oh." He said, "Boy, I can't take you ANYWHERE!!" It took a while, but I learned how to think about such things---and to see both with my eyes---and with my mind.

Ralph Tremaine

Tricky devils!!! I saw that happening and thought it might be the desired result, but for the wrong reason. (Isn't there a word for that??)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I only know a phrase: "The hurrieder I go the behinder I get!"

The story of my life!!

RT

Well, I finally broke into my 2nd Model Single Shot! (I couldn't get the sideplate off as the hammer stud nut was frozen onto the stud and the stud was unscrewing from the frame. An hour of so in the heated sonic cleaner in a solution of ATF and kerosene did the trick.) This allowed me to see how things are supposed to work.
Anyway, I digress. Mike was 100% correct, I need a new hammer and trigger. The safety notch is gone and the sear nose and sear notch have been "worked over" to beyond recutting.
I'm contemplating just burying the factory letter saying it started life as a 1st Model SS that ended up with a 2nd Model 38 DA barrel, declaring it a 3rd Model 38 SS and putting it in a shadow box that no one will be able to get their hands on to tell the difference.
Of course I will continue to look for a hammer, trigger and .22 barrel, but it's not high on my list.
(Now I'm looking for a stirrup for a 32 DA. Anybody got one???)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

There is another possibility for fixing these parts and that is restorative welding. The downside is that these folks can add metal where it has been removed however, the shaping back to the original design is on you. If you can get someone to make a pattern or template or loan you a trigger and hammer then it would merely be a matter of some serious filing.

I have visited their website and they do show examples of finished products. It is near impossible to tell the difference between repaired and original.

RESTORATIVE WELDING
Museum quality TIG welding of antique firearms and edged weapons ... since 1964

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James Redfield
LM #497

I thought about that.... I have the hammer and trigger from my 2nd Model SS for a pattern. However, I have also discovered that I am not much good with files and such. (I tried to replicate a broken sear notch on a Merwin Hulbert.. It was a disaster.) Then there's always the problem of hardening, stoning, etc.
I know my limitations...(I think.)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I see you asked some questions I didn't answer-----------yes, my 1st Model SS came with hand and cylinder stop installed----all of them (3 rimfire, 1 centerfire). As to why your cylinder is only locked when the trigger is back, I don't know.

Having heard the tales that removing the hand/cylinder stop/related springs improved the action, I removed them---to see what's what. The only aspect of "the action" I can measure (objectively) is trigger pull, so I measured that before and after. There was no difference across all four pistols. I subjectively measured the effort to cock the hammer, and couldn't tell any difference.

The malfunction of your cylinder stop almost has to be spring related---at least that's my knee-jerk answer----the spring is broken or not there. As I sit and stare at the springs, I don't see how/why one would break. That said, you've given me a good reason to put this stuff back into these guns---and then more sitting and staring to see how/why they actually function. That should provide a definitive answer. It remains to be seen whether or not I'll see/understand that answer. Stay tuned.

As to your boogered hammer, I had need of one once and was certain I'd never be able to find one. I don't recall exactly how it came to pass----probably either mentioned it here, or put a notation in the wanted to buy/sell section here. Bottom Line: I had two hammers (pretty much brand new) inside of a week---and they came from less than 50 miles down the road----so don't be running off to a high priced, super star welder.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph,
After sitting and staring at the innards of my 2nd Model I think I have figured out how the cylinder stop works. However the only way I can confirm my suspicions would require me to swap out the hammer and trigger from my 2nd Model into the 1st Model. (That would also include moving the hand and spring.)
Seeing as how I don't seem to get along with reinstalling the hammer spring, (I can do it, but it's a fight all the way.) doing it 3 times in a row is not currently appealing. The gun is not going anywhere, so I think I will just wait to see if I can find the new parts.

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446