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Old 02-04-2018, 12:28 PM
Ohop Ohop is offline
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Default S&W Model 3 Schofield 2nd Edition

Hello,
I own an S/W n 3 Schofield Second model. It is a single action in cal 45 that I bought here in Belgium. Serial number 5418 is visible on butt and cylinder. Marked on one side J.P M.C 1924 (I am not sure that the 2nd letter is a P) that I am desperately trying to identify. Indeed I would like to determine the meaning of these marks and the origin of this S&W gun. Would anyone have any idea what these marks might mean ? Thank you in advance.
Ohop
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:06 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Ohop! I do not know the meaning of those marks. However, someone should be along shortly to help. In the interim, check the gun for military markings as follows:

Military markings include “U.S.” on butt, cartouche on grips, and “L” and “P” on barrel and cylinder, and frame marked “L”.

(SCSW, 4th Ed., Page 113).

You may need a magnifying glass as the letters are very small, IIRC. If you can't find the military markings, except perhaps the P on the frame, you may have a civilian version of which only 650 were made.
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:52 PM
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The stamping is obviously an after market stamping by persons unknown . If you can tell us WHERE and WHAT are ALL the markings, stampings, that are on the gun, we can tell you if it is a military Schofield or a commercially sold gun. If there is no final inspector's stamp and a missing "US" stamp, and no cartouche on the stocks, it's possibly a non-military gun, but not absolutely. What number, if any, is stamped on the back side of the right stock panel ? Ed.

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Old 02-04-2018, 05:16 PM
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HOW many civilian Schofields were there, and where did you get that data from ?
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Old 02-04-2018, 06:59 PM
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Scsw, 4th edition says 650.

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Old 02-05-2018, 02:09 AM
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Neal & Jinks says "approximately 649." Ed.
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:41 AM
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Thank you, gentlemen. I was under the impression there were many less than approximately 650 commercial issues.

Ed, you have explained the difficulty in positive ID of commercial models in the past so I won't ask you to repeat it unless you are so inclined.

I believe it was stated that NONE of the first models will letter to anywhere but the Springfield Armory, correct ? Charlie has corrected Roy's ship date for me on a few 1st models as Charlie had access to the US records whereas Roy had been using an invoice date ... total difference was about (or less than) 2 weeks.
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Old 02-05-2018, 02:01 PM
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Sal, Jinks says the 1st model records for Schofields are too difficult to read accurately, so when he letters a 1st model, he uses the date the factory invoiced the shipments to the Army, as the "ship" date. Makes sense, however that causes any of the very few 1st Models the were not shipped to the Army ( private purchases and gifts, etc ) to receive a letter saying the gun went to the Army when it did not. 3035 1st models were made, according to the Army ordnance records. 3000 were received by the Army. the other 35 were either sent to other destinations other than the Army or broken up for parts, etc. by S&W. The non-military shipped guns can be identified by forensic analysis of the inspectors markings, or more the lack thereof, and that is what Pate has been able to hone to a science. Also, actual delivery dates of Schofields is detailed in the Army records, so a few weeks difference in lettered invoice dates vs. receipt dates is expected. So far, serial numbers 6 & 13 are known to be non-military "civilian" 1st models Schofields from forensic analysis. Other may exist but have not been "discovered" as yet. Ed.
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Old 02-05-2018, 03:51 PM
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I know that the forensic examination of each commercial must be verified by an authority such as yourself or Charlie, on a one by one basis. Knowing that each must be verified, regardless or surmised or grouped serial number (is such exists), is it possible the first 35 could have been the commercial issues ?

By deduction, 35 (appx) 1st models were commercial, leaving the balance of the commercial models (appx 615) as 2nd models ... or so it seems, correct ? Is it likely that all or most of the 35 first model commercials were low serial numbers (e.g. 1 to 35) as far as gifts and promotional issue, of that nature ?

Any indication that the U.S. Govt, perhaps, did not accept ... or cancel ... a bunch in the later or final shipment Serial Numbers (presuming they were shipped, somewhat, as manufactured in numerical sequence) ?

Can it ... more or less ... be ruled out that ANY or ALL of the U.S. surplus-ed Schofields (of the surplus sale of about 1898 to 1900, when they were taken out of service completely) were all US models ? e.g. rule out any 5" as a commercial ? Is that feasible ?
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:38 AM
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Sal, We suspect the majority of non military 1st Model Schofields will have low serial numbers, primarily because that was the period when the factory was being pressured by individuals wanting an example of the new Schofield. Correspondence in the archives at the Armory and S&W ( see Parson's book ) show many letters requesting Schofield purchases, plus Col. Schofield is known to have received perhaps as many as 1/2 doz. Schofields from early production for gifts to his friends. Having said that, data bases kept by collectors show that most early serial numbers are US stamped and were sent to the Army. (Serial Nos 1 & 16, (Wells Fargo guns), formerly in my collection, are military ) No. 5 is possibly a civilian, but has yet to be examined. I think it is feasible, as you suggest, that almost any 5 inch Schofield was originally a 7 inch military model sold as surplus and modified for users like Wells Fargo Express Co. One anomaly to look for in a Schofield is whether the small parts that have the gun's serial number on them ( latch screw, etc ) and the number does not match the gun, means the gun that was the serial number of the small part may have been one of the rejected guns that was broken up for parts and any approved parts were used in a later gun that passed inspection and are not necessarily "mixed parts" guns, as the term is normally used, but left S&W that way. Ed.
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Old 02-06-2018, 09:55 AM
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Default Marks on my Schofield

Hello,
Sorry for not answering before but it is currently a very busy business period for me!
As proposed, I have checked all the gun markings and the result is the following:
- U.S. on butt : YES (see picture)
- Cartouche on grips : YES on both sides (see picture)
- E and P below the barrel (see picture)
- Left stock marked L (see picture)
- Serial number 5418 on butt and cylinder.
Please note that I did not dare open my gun !
According to the seller, these marks J.P M.C 1924 were probably a military division or ranch or those of a New York militia.
What do you think ? Does anyone has additional information in this respect ? Thank you. Ohop
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:54 PM
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If you Google J.P.M.C. 1924 you come up with J.P.Morgan Chase, which I doubt has anything to do with 2nd model Schofield. The few Schofields with militia markings I've seen were stamped on the back strap (Calif. Militia, etc. ) with rack or identity numbers. Ed.
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Old 02-09-2018, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
If you Google J.P.M.C. 1924 you come up with J.P.Morgan Chase, which I doubt has anything to do with 2nd model Schofield. The few Schofields with militia markings I've seen were stamped on the back strap (Calif. Militia, etc. ) with rack or identity numbers. Ed.

Ed, Looking at the stamping a bit closer, it appears not stamped by a skilled hand. In other words ... a "gawd" awful, one letter / number at a time, careless, disproportionate, series of stamped letters and numbers. Something resembling what my kids might have done in 1st grade with a letter / number ink-stamp and ink pad kit and paper.

It reads J.P M.C 1924 (not J.P.M.C) with most of the lower section of the letters and numbers stamped lighter, with the uppers deeper. This along with a few double struck (or a rebound from one impact) stamps.

My initial take is that I don't believe it to be anything that might add an official or historic value to it.

It does, however, add a certain mystique of the "unknown" ... even if just the though of "who the heck did that and why" ?

It is still a Schofield and as you stated earlier should be evaluated for the condition as it is now. Nothing extra (and not sure if should be deducted) for the stamping.

Do you recall, years back the Wells Fargo Schofields were valued LESS than the non Wells Fargo marked ? I recall that existed well into the 1990s when the prices of the two more or less evened up. Thereafter the Wells Fargo (authentic Wells Fargo) started to appreciate to a value higher than the non-stamped.

It was then that several Wells Fargo marked Schofields with suspicious markings started to appear. If you recall, last year sometime I posted a response in someone's thread about 2 Wells Fargo Schofields that appeared to be different guns, but with the same serial number.

REVISION: forensic examination of these 2 with all the best photos I had saved at the time, were sent to Charles Pate who determined, with great accuracy the 2 guns were one and the same. The only remaining issue was an illegible serial number on the butt. IIRC this is where I lost interest in it.

I suppose anything "can" happen but then there are certain things that defy common sense.
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Sal, Jinks says the 1st model records for Schofields are too difficult to read accurately, so when he letters a 1st model, he uses the date the factory invoiced the shipments to the Army, as the "ship" date. Makes sense, however that causes any of the very few 1st Models the were not shipped to the Army ( private purchases and gifts, etc ) to receive a letter saying the gun went to the Army when it did not. 3035 1st models were made, according to the Army ordnance records. 3000 were received by the Army. the other 35 were either sent to other destinations other than the Army or broken up for parts, etc. by S&W. The non-military shipped guns can be identified by forensic analysis of the inspectors markings, or more the lack thereof, and that is what Pate has been able to hone to a science. Also, actual delivery dates of Schofields is detailed in the Army records, so a few weeks difference in lettered invoice dates vs. receipt dates is expected. So far, serial numbers 6 & 13 are known to be non-military "civilian" 1st models Schofields from forensic analysis. Other may exist but have not been "discovered" as yet. Ed.




This is a Schofield that I recently acquired.

I have the papers filled out but have not yet sent them to S&W to have it authenticated.

The cylinder has a matching number too.

It appears to be in pretty good shape.
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:17 PM
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rubiranch, Your Schofield has been refinish at some time in the past and It appears the heavy buffing has removed the US stamp on the butt, etc. Where do all the other stamps & and numbers appear and where do you see them? ( Some are very small and hard to see, and you will have to move the stocks and open the gun to see all marks. ) What number is stamped on the rear of the right grip? Is there a cartouche visible in the left stock ? A factory letter will say the gun is a US Military shipped gun, regardless of where it was actually shipped, for reasons mentioned in my posts above. Ed.

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Old 04-15-2018, 02:48 PM
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Ed, thank you VERY much.

A close friend has the gun right now. It was my brother's gun and my friend cleaned it up for me.

I will see him in the next day or two and get some pictures and the info that you are asking for.

I will post more info as soon as I get it.

Thanks again
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