I´ve recently seen one in what I would call good to fair condition: frame retains most of its original bluing, but it is very faint at the cylinder and barrel (holster wear, maybe?)

Good bore with minor pitting, good timing with almost no rotational play. Matching S/N on barrel and cylinder, non-matching stocks.

And here comes my question: I expected to find the S/N at the frame (right next to the landyard loop), as I have seen in some #3 Russian 3rd Models.

However, this particular revolver has cutouts for fitting a buttstock and there is almost no space at the butt, between the swivel and the cutout. The S/N is not there.

Assuming that these cutouts were factory made (not sure about this), which would be the right part of the frame to look for the S/N?

Thanks,

NewDeparture.

I would expect S&W to have put the serial on the front of the grip frame if they did the work?

In the States this gun as described would be illegal because of the removed serial number.

No, definitively not placed at the front of the grip.

Anyway, I´m not saying that the frame does n´t have a SN.

I´m just saying that I could n´t find it where it is supposed to be on other models. So, I´m asking where else to look.

Maybe it could be located underneath the stocks, I don´t know. This is the first time I see these cutouts to fit a butt stock.

Thanks

Yes. Look under the stocks. If the work is S&W; they would have re-stamped the serial number under the left stock.

__________________
Mike Maher #283

Your gun is an antique, therefore not a firearm, per ATF rules, so I doubt you are risking a charge of owning a illegal firearm with no frame stamped serial number. If the butt cut for attaching a shoulder stock caused the removal of the original serial number, than all you have is an antique S&W with no serial number on the frame. If the stocks are original, then the serial number is on the back side of the right stock panel. If the gun has parts that were rejected by the Russian inspectors, then the serial number may be on those parts, as S&W often reused parts from rejected Russian contract guns to complete assembly of commercial guns. If the gun has a butt swivel and a slot cut to attach a shoulder stock, then I strongly suspect the butt cut is after market and not factory. Ed.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Went back to take a deeper look. Owner allowed me to take out the stocks. As he told me, they have a non matching serial number.

After a close inspection, I' ve found a tiny number on the frame butt under the right stock: 2XX

Same three- digit number repeats on cylinder's rear face. Its also stamped on barrel (just under the barrel catch).

I couldnt find any other markings except the pat. dates at the barrel rib, ending with "RUSSIAN MODEL".

So, good news is that I found same number on three major places: frame, cylinder and barrel.

Bad news is that this number seems to be too low for a russian 2nd model commercial (which I strongly believe this is).

So, any thoughts on this?

Since it was cut to accept a buttstock and it has a lanyard loop, my guess is that the complete serial number got milled off from the butt.

But if this was true, would these 3 digit also be stamped on the right side of the frame under the grip, as in this case?

I dont wanna miss this one but first I want to make sure of what it is.

Thanks in advance for your help.

NewDeparture

with the 2nd model Russian the parts were serial numbered to the serial number on the gun in place of where the Assembly Numbers were on the 1st model Russian.

at factory level, when cut for a stock, the serial number would have been placed a bit further back with smaller stamps, perpendicular to the original set of numbers ... or where the original set of numbers should have been had it not been cut for a stock.

However, when the distributor, dealer or arsenal added the cuts for the stock, they likely would not have restamped the serial number as the factory did.

A few pictures would be extremely helpful.

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Your 2xx number is the assembly number and it should be as you described on the butt under the grips, cylinder face, barrel, and latch.

The serial number was only stamped on the butt and inside the right grip. Since yours was modified for a stock the serial number on the butt may have been defaced leaving the inside of the right grip your only other option to determine the serial number.

Here is my Commercial 2nd Russian



Assembly Number on cylinder face



Serial Number on Butt




What number is inside the right grip panel on your pistol?

Thank you Sal,
Yes, I need to take some pictures. I´m aware it is difficult to evaluate this without pictures. I´ll do that soon.

DesmoEd,

Thank you for your helpful pictures.

Number inside the right grip panel is 2xx. I would have expected to find a complete serial number there but no, only those 3 digits. I´ve also checked below the left panel but there is no number nor any other markings there.

Same number (2xx) is located at the cylinder, barrel and latch. I could n´t find any other numbers nor markings on this gun (except for the pat. dates at the barrel).

I´ve also carefully inspected the frame butt but there are no remaining signs of a serial number there; I may need to remove the lanyard loop just to see if there is some number hidden below, but I don´t think so.


Thanks

So then you have a right grip panel marked 2xx like this?



And you did say it had a US barrel address ending in Russian Model like this



If thats all correct then it could be a Russian Contract reject gun. My understanding is the Russian Contract pistols rejected at inspection were sold on the US market. The Cyrillic barrel address was removed and replaced with the US address shown above. Also, the Contract guns did not use assembly numbers but were serial numbered throughout. That could very well explain your anomaly but as others have requested, pics are in order.

Hope that helps, Ed

Pictures, at last!

Notice the cutouts for fitting a butt stock. To my untrained eye, the pattern looks correct for a Russian 2nd Model.

There are a few shiny scratches around them, where patina was supposed to be; that got me thinking about the possibility of a butt stock recently detached from this gun. I´ll ask the LGS owner to contact the original gun owner and see if it might be available.

Attached Images

	Nmbr3Russian2nd 00 - Copy.jpg (47.9 KB, 101 views)
	Nmbr3Russian2nd 01 - Copy.jpg (52.5 KB, 93 views)
	Nmbr3Russian2nd 02 - Copy.jpg (55.0 KB, 103 views)
	Nmbr3Russian2nd 03 - Copy.jpg (51.6 KB, 96 views)

Ed,

My bad, sorry. I misunderstood your question. What I meant to say is that SN 2xx is marked on the right side of the frame butt, UNDER the right grip panel.

To make things clear:

Barrel markings are identical to the ones in your picture.

Serial number 2xx is stamped on metal on 3 different parts: barrel, cylinder and frame (right side of the butt, UNDER the right panel).

Left grip panel is not marked. Right grip panel has a completely different 5 digit serial number (the last number do not match with 2xx)

Thanks again,

NewDeparture

The serial number is most likely the 5 digit number that you found on the right stock panel. The 2XX (which since it is not the serial number) can now be reported without the X's. It is my belief that the 2XX is the assembly number as the locations reported are those typically used for assembly numbers.

As others have stated, the lack of a serial number will not have the ATF busting down your door and raiding your home. It is considered an antique and therefore not considered a firearm and can be shipped between private individuals and no FFL is required.

Close up magnified photos of the butt especially around the butt swivel would be nice. There may be remnants of the serial number on either side of the slot assuming that the serial number was written across the butt like the one in the photo posted by DesmoEd and not front to back like most S&W's.

Looks like a neat old piece and assuming that the price does not match the national debt, one that I would gladly add to my collection.

__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

There is your answer. Providing the grips are original to the pistol that's your serial number and its probably in the high 30,000 range. The reason it does not match the 2xx number is because the 2xx number is an assembly number and it had nothing to do with the serial number. That also kills the notion of it being some type of Russian Contract reject as they did not use assembly numbers but were serial numbered throughout.

The attachment points look like they are factory but I am sure S&W would not have obliterated the serial when it was adapted for the stock.

We need to find someone with a factory stocked model to see where the serial was placed. JLeiper is the authority on the Russian Contract stuff, shoot him a PM and see if you can get him to respond

James,

Thanks for your help.

The gun is registered to the assembly number (SN#2xx). This is not a problem in my country, since all major parts are stamped with this number and that´s enough for our local gun registration requirements.

I´ve removed the butt swivel in order to look for remnants of a complete serial number there, but I´m afraid I could n´t find anything. I´m attaching a couple of pics here.

Thanks again,
NewDeparture

Attached Images

	002 - Copy.jpg (52.3 KB, 48 views)
	003 - Copy.jpg (48.7 KB, 48 views)

Thanks Ed,

I think both you and James are right about these stocks: they could be original to the gun. I took them out once more and BINGO! Serial number there is #35160.

As per SCSW, 2nd Model Commercials were produced from SN#32800 to 39000. So, this SN# is well within that range.

I guess this is as close as I´ll ever get to confirm that this is a second model commercial, but that´s enough for me. If we consider this to be true, then the only thing that still needs to be confirmed is whether the cutouts are original ones or not.

I´m adding a pic of the right grip panel. Looks like the first digit was stamped twice (I find this odd), but is clearly a "3" when you look at it through a magnifying glass.

Attached Images

001 - Copy.jpg (53.9 KB, 36 views)

The SN was stamped right where the bottom cutout is placed. It's good the assembly numbers are ok with your government.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

You have a 2nd Russian and if it has a US barrel address then its a Commercial model. The serial number would have been stamped across the bottom like mine above - here is another example



I think its good news there are no remnants of a serial number of the sides of the cutout.

You see if the stock cutouts had been done outside the factory back in the day they would have given no regard for the serial number and cut right thru it leaving the first and last digits still visible. Your example tells me its most likely factory as the serial was never placed there by S&W because the stock cutouts were done at the factory.

There had to be an alternative spot for the serial or maybe it was overlooked? By the fit those grips look original and if it was my pistol I'd chance a factory letter based on the grip serial number. Again I'd reach out to JLeiper for some insight.

Interested to see where this goes.

Ed

The OP is in South America. The ATF won't be after him!

Not true. 2nd and 3rd Model Commercial production revolvers had assembly numbers just like 1st Models. These revolvers were all in one serial number series. 2nd Model and 3rd Models each had their own block of numbers and there was an "overflow block" at about 50000-52500.
Joe

Joe,

Can you provide any insight into the OP's stock cutouts in the frame regarding serial number location?

Also, did the Russian Contract pistols all use serial numbers throughout in lieu of assembly numbers?

Thanks, Ed

Stock cutouts look good to me and are right where the serial number would be. I've only seen a few of these with the stock cuts and honestly don't remember where the frame serial number was located.

All Russian contract revolvers except approximately the very first 500 of the 1st contract have full serial numbers. Full serial numbers are found in the same location as the assy numbers on a commercial revolver. So a Russian contract will have a full serial number on the butt, the right grip panel, the face of the barrel extension (early) or top of the barrel (late), the bottom of the latch and rear cylinder face.
Joe
BTW only three of the first 500 revolvers from the 1st contract are known - 211, 385 and 438. All have assy numbers.

Joe,

thank you for your reply.
This revolver has the assembly numbers (2XX) on all the places you´ve mentioned (latch, barrel, cylinder and butt) plus a full s/N on the right grip panel.

This full S/N points to a commercial version of the Russian 2nd Model. Barrel markings ending with "RUSSIAN MODEL" also tends to confirm this.

On the other side of the coin, it seems odd to me that the only full S/N is at the right grip panel, but I checked again and I could n´t find any other markings.

Maybe this is the way they left the factory when cutouts were provided. I know I might be taking a wild guess here, since I cannot know for sure if the cutouts are original to the gun. But the patina formed over them fully matches the patina of the rest of the gun. That´s a good sign, IMHO.

Thanks,
Newdepature.

Thanks Joe

Newdeparture, I don't see how they could be anything but factory. Part of your 5 digit serial would still show if the cutouts were done after it was produced and stamped as normal.

Instead, you have no number at all which means S&W did not stamp it...and I can only think of one reason why they didn't

Now you just need to find a stock for it...

I have a 2nd Model that is cut for a stock just like the one pictured, and it has a number stamped in front of the lanyard ring, crossways of the butt strap.

__________________
Tom
1560