2nd model Schofield, another patent date?

SportySpiceFan · #1 05-12-2018, 07:07 AM

Hello all from Piedmont, Italy.

Just joined this Forum after viewing it many times mainly to learn of modern revolvers from so many enthusiasts - however here I'm looking for a precious help about a Schofield I could maybe purchase with some efforts here in Italy, it could add to my currently small firearms collection (all of American Western association).
It woul be my second S&W revolver - earlier I've got a New Model #3 in .44 Russian, so-so in condition - this Schofield is really in great shape and barely within my reach. Too much disappointing, should one detail turn out being suspicious.

I've carefully examined it, actually I'm not competent on every details, so a bit of concern came up in seeing a 'modified' patent line below the barrel, right-side. Instead of " + Schofield's Pat. 22nd Apr. 1873 + '', it reads
'' + Schofield's Pats. June 20th 71. Apr 22nd 73 + ".
Searched carefully at my best on the web and found out just one identical specimen (on auction years ago) being so inscribed, thus I hope not somehow a fakery or similar. But in my books about US Cavalry weapons I've found nothing mentioning this modified patent, only always that other datew.
This Schofield gun is marked 'US' on the butt, serial #50xx so it comes from the second military contract of March 1875, date on left side grip is 1876.

Should any photo help here I can ask permission from gunshop owner to post in the Forum. Gun is fully blued and in really great shape, however given the requested amount (not a small thing currently for me) I'd prefer to go on rather cautious.
Sorry for any possible errors here in writing English. A great Thanx for any suggestions. Greetings - Franco.

model3sw · #2 05-12-2018, 08:02 AM

Ciao, Franco. Welcome to the group.

With 2nd Schofield # 54XX, in hand,(which is a matching number Schofield) the patent scroll on the right side of the barrel reads:

+ SCHOFIELD'S PATS. JUNE 20TH 71. APR 22ND 73 +

all on one line. there is an underscore on the "TH" or 20TH and on the ND of 22ND

HOWEVER, the left side of the barrel has an elaborate a 2 line roll stamp:

+SMITH&WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A. PAT.JAN 17TH+
&24TH 65. JULY 11TH 65. AUG. 24TH 69 JULY 25TH 71 .

The 2 lines are balanced just about evenly with the bottom line just a tad shorter but centered.
these lines have an underscore on all the TH of the dates.

The beginning and end markers or the 2 line patent scroll is a stretched Maltese Cross" which is near as tall as both lines.

Please include a photos. Would help us, help you, evaluate and grade condition.

I strongly suggest you examine carefully, to determine if the serial numbers, on all parts, match. There are serial numbers on the barrel (under the barrel catch), on the catch itself, on the face of the cylinder, on the butt, and on the underside of the grips. There are other numbered part, too, but these places should qualify it sufficiently.

Use the precisely sized, hollow ground, screwdriver or driver bit to remove the rear screw of the barrel catch, after which the catch should rotate upward enough to determine at least a partial serial number. Complete removal of the catch will verify the catch number, too.

The rear screw, if original, should have a partially ground flat, mid-section, with the serial number also. Sometimes, after so many years, these screws get damaged and thus replaced. Really not much of a detraction if replaced with original type or original replacement screws on the barrel catch only. Any other damaged or replaced screws will affect the value, as will a refinish.

With the grips off check for stamped dates to determine if factory refurbished. Factory refurbish usually (but not always) have a " * " in the serial number either before or after, on the butt.

You may also contact me directly, if you need.

Sal Raimondi, Sr.

SportySpiceFan · #3 05-12-2018, 09:14 AM

Thanx so much Sal for this impressive amount of details/suggestions, very kind indeed.

Yes I'll include some pics, but at least I'm much less concerned about that patent markings on right-side; didn't know this variations does exist, what I read on books or seen on web photos is invariably the shorter type of Schofield's patent line.
Maybe a precise s/n is the dividing one between the two styles?, if so I guess something like more or less 2,500 2nd model US revolvers do carry the later variation. Or maybe not.
Thanx again, I'll post some pics. For the other live checks it will take to be personally at the gunshop, but not in these very days - an advance money I've already given (about 25%), should the gun turn out being not fully OK I'll use that to steer to another gun.

SportySpiceFan · #4 05-12-2018, 10:22 AM

Sorry for the above photos
do not know why they stay turned 90°, some details should be OK though. That immaculate blue with impeccably sharp corners/edges almost makes me thinking of possible refinishing back then at S&W?, however no star symbol near the s/n on the butt.
For further first-hand checkings I'll have to go at the gunshop shortly.

Thanx again. Franco.

model3sw · #5 05-12-2018, 05:32 PM

Franco, Photographs do not always tell all but it seems it has had a quality refinish at some time in the past. The finer sand scratches under the blue are not in keeping of how S&W would refinish this piece.

Since the lines are sharp, the pins are still rounded and (overall) it appears much nicer than most, it would be a nice find if you paid a fair price for it.

I cannot comment on the stocks (grips) whether original, replacement or other. Check underside of stocks for Serial Number.

Sent the data on your Schofield to Charles Pate, the author. I will supply further info when he responds.

opoefc · #6 05-12-2018, 09:35 PM

I agree with Sal. I believe the gun has been very expertly & nicely refinished at some time in the past, judging from what I see in the few photos. If the factory did it, then the left grip frame may have been stamped with the factory rework date code, which would show something like the " 10 . 53 " meaning October 1953. How much negative affect on value that would be in Italy, I don't know. Schofields of any condition are rare in Europe, so if you can get the gun for a price you can live with, I would say - Go for it. The gun's not a fake. Ed.

SportySpiceFan · #7 05-13-2018, 02:54 AM

Thanx very much Sal and Ed,
in fact I was looking for this model of gun since years, but extra costs related to getting it from abroad are terrifying - last before having the hands on it, is percentage for one of the very few gunshop owners who are allowed importing into Italy (here even antiques, pre-1890, do require firearm license and lots of documents with biblic waiting time).
So this piece was alternative to an 'American' model w/ 8" barrel from the same seller, this one in impressive shape with only a few spots of usage but too much expensive.

A fantastic gun but outside of my reach. Another piece from his collection he's slowly giving away could be a British model Colt SAA from summer 1877 in .450 Boxer, sent to London in early 1878 and silver-plated with just a bit of usage.
And another is a Winchester '76 'Express' in the ''cat's gun'' configuration, aquired for tiger hunting in late 1887 by a British officer based in eastern India... but it too, well far away from me. So that Schofield was just within my reach and great-looking indeed, and would be disappointing if finding out some serious details aren't OK.

Franco.

model3sw · #8 05-13-2018, 12:48 PM

Franco, Here is the response from Charles Pate:

(Start) "Thanks, Sal. I had not heard of this one before. I agree that it is clearly refinished, though still a nice gun. The June 20th George Schofield patent date, which was for the barrel catch design, was added at about serial number 4800. Smith & Wesson had neglected to include it earlier and when production of the 2nd Model started Schofield insisted they add it. They had already made a lot of the barrels so the 2-date marking didn’t start to predominate until about 5500. There were still a few barrels with 1-date markings used after serial number 6000, but if you see a gun with a 2-date barrel marking under 4800 there is a very good chance the barrel is not original to the frame." (end)

In other words, your serial number was not previously recorded by Col. Pate as one of the survivors and your barrel Schofield patents dates are correct for your serial number.

Find and purchase Charles Pate's book Smith & Wesson American online. This is it on Amazon:

Smith & Wesson American Model: in U.S. and Foreign Service: Charles W. Pate: 9781931464246: Amazon.com: Books

SportySpiceFan · #9 05-13-2018, 03:16 PM

Thanx so much Sal, to you and to mr. Pate as well. Both extremely kind and ready to help.
OK next step will be to see live whether there are matching numbers in the spots you described, hope seeing them all. Gun is still greatly attractive to me and if the whole thing turns out satisfactory after those further checks, I'm confident to be able getting the Schofield about mid-June or maybe a bit later.

In the past I've been able in getting two clothing items both comproved original and especially in good condition - one pair of Pattern 1886 (2nd pattern) Cavalry gauntlets, and one Pattern 1890 (1st variation, small quantities made only in summer 1890) Cavalry field blouse, very dark blue and with original sewn-on Corporal chevrons.
My plan years ago was getting one original Cavalry revolver to add to these two items and the Springfield carbine, but as I've understood the more iconic Colt SAA will stay away forever, and not only for money reasons with certain fantastic prices - too many variables, doubts and fakery out there when one speaks of military Colt SAA.
This Schofield even though refinished, should it show up in the end 100% original regarding all the rest could be the only chance of getting one real Cavalry revolver.
Will let you know shortly. A great thanx again, to next one somewhere in the Forum.

Franco.