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Old 02-19-2018, 02:51 PM
Coldtiger Coldtiger is offline
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Default Help needing ID

First time poster here and thank you in advance for your help. Looking for some general identification and appox value.

Six shot, top break following on the barrel.

SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A. PAT’D JAN 17 & 24 65
MAY 11 65 AUG 24 69 JULY 21 75 MAY 11 & 25 1880

Serial number XX58 on butt and cylinder
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Last edited by Coldtiger; 02-20-2018 at 06:50 PM. Reason: incorrect date should be 1880 not 1889
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:02 PM
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First time poster here and thank you in advance for your help. Looking for some general identification and appox value.

Six shot, top break following on the barrel.

SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A. PAT’D JAN 17 & 24 65
MAY 11 65 AUG 24 69 JULY 21 75 MAY 11 & 25 1889

Serial number XX58 on butt and cylinder
Welcome. Need better pictures and sn XX58 for me is no help. Better guessers will be along.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:21 PM
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Welcome! It appears to be a .44 Double Action; does the bore diameter look to be about .44”?.

Giving the full SN would be helpful; with just the last two digits all we can tell you is that it was made in the year 18xx .
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:35 PM
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Welcome to the forum. Quite a pause in posting from last year. I have no expertise in the top breaks.

That revolver is sure a beauty though.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:06 PM
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Welcome to the Forum. The shape of the top of the trigger tells me it has to be a 44 Double Action and from the looks of the short flutes, it is in 44 Russian Caliber. There are 32 and 38 Double Actions with the same shape and overall appearance, and you did not provide any reference to scale. The 32 and 38 have a straight top section to the trigger and the 44 is recurved. It would have had to been manufactured in 1881 or 1882 with a 4 digit serial number.

Forgot to mention I believe it has replacement stocks, since the originals were walnut or hard rubber checkered stocks. Here is a 32 DA and a 44 DA Frontier in 44-40 for comparison.
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Last edited by glowe; 02-19-2018 at 05:17 PM. Reason: added content
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:59 PM
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Welcome aboard, Coldtiger. Stick around, you'll like it here.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:03 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass!

Guy
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:41 PM
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In regard to value, I seldom see these for less than $1500 asking price in my modest travels, even with little finish left. They will go up from there as condition improves. Whatever, the grips will probably detract from the value of yours.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:46 PM
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Six shot = .44 caliber. 1 7/16" cylinder is the .44 Russian. 1 9/16" is usually the .44 - 40.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:58 PM
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Please pardon my ignorance, but what's with the square butt?

Ralph Tremaine

And as an aside, the patent dates shown above differ in several respects with those shown in N&J----that is the patent dates listed for the 1st Model, the DA Frontier, and the DA Wesson Favorite----which would be pretty much all of them---right?

Last edited by rct269; 02-20-2018 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:23 AM
Coldtiger Coldtiger is offline
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Thanks for all of the quick responses. The complete serial number is 3558. Attached are a few more pictures. Hope these are a better representation.
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:55 AM
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Nice original gun without any tinkering. The K frame hard rubber stocks will fit that revolver and would be a welcome change from the 2X4 approach to custom stocks. My Frontier revolver also had whittled wood stocks and I put early 1900s Model 1905 stocks on the gun from ebay. Places like Vintage Gun Grips also have reproductions available. The only difference between the top-break stocks and the K frame stocks is that the front lower corner of the butt-frame on the top-breaks are fairly sharp corners, where the K frame has a more rounded corner.

Walnut stocks were also available and almost the same as the ones available for the Model 1899 in the early 1900s. You can see the slight differences between the 44 DA and the 38 HE frames in the image below and the walnut stocks that were factory originals. These early walnut stocks are getting quite pricey.

Can you take a picture of the lower rear of the butt-frame to show how the square conversion stocks were made?
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Old 02-20-2018, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
Please pardon my ignorance, but what's with the square butt?

Ralph Tremaine

And as an aside, the patent dates shown above differ in several respects with those shown in N&J----that is the patent dates listed for the 1st Model, the DA Frontier, and the DA Wesson Favorite----which would be pretty much all of them---right?
Yes, I don't think anyone else caught it. The 1889 date has gotta be a typo and should be 1880
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Nice original gun without any tinkering. The K frame hard rubber stocks will fit that revolver and would be a welcome change from the 2X4 approach to custom stocks. My Frontier revolver also had whittled wood stocks and I put early 1900s Model 1905 stocks on the gun from ebay. Places like Vintage Gun Grips also have reproductions available. The only difference between the top-break stocks and the K frame stocks is that the front lower corner of the butt-frame on the top-breaks are fairly sharp corners, where the K frame has a more rounded corner.

Walnut stocks were also available and almost the same as the ones available for the Model 1899 in the early 1900s. You can see the slight differences between the 44 DA and the 38 HE frames in the image below and the walnut stocks that were factory originals. These early walnut stocks are getting quite pricey.

Can you take a picture of the lower rear of the butt-frame to show how the square conversion stocks were made?
Or better yet, a picture of the grip frame---without the conversion stocks.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 02-20-2018, 02:22 PM
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Welcome to the forum.
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Old 02-20-2018, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
. . . the patent dates shown above differ in several respects with those shown in N&J . . .
I have found that the majority of any particular model is documented correctly by Neal & Jinks, there are many S&Ws out there with slightly different dates than Roy & Neal's patent date section. It is never possible to capture every patent date change out there, so omissions should be forgiven.

Here is what the rib patent date stamp should look like & yes the last date is 1880. I am sure there are other valid stampings over the life of this model out there.
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Old 02-20-2018, 06:47 PM
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Thank you and you are correct. Typo on my part, 1880.
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Old 02-20-2018, 06:49 PM
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Thank you very much for the detail. Will probably be a few days before i can post a picture of the butt-frame
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
I have found that the majority of any particular model is documented correctly by Neal & Jinks, there are many S&Ws out there with slightly different dates than Roy & Neal's patent date section. It is never possible to capture every patent date change out there, so omissions should be forgiven.

Here is what the rib patent date stamp should look like & yes the last date is 1880. I am sure there are other valid stampings over the life of this model out there.


A 35xx serial number in this model could not possibly have an 1889 date, that was the point not some hypothetical error in the N&J book
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Nice original gun without any tinkering. The K frame hard rubber stocks will fit that revolver and would be a welcome change from the 2X4 approach to custom stocks. My Frontier revolver also had whittled wood stocks and I put early 1900s Model 1905 stocks on the gun from ebay. Places like Vintage Gun Grips also have reproductions available. The only difference between the top-break stocks and the K frame stocks is that the front lower corner of the butt-frame on the top-breaks are fairly sharp corners, where the K frame has a more rounded corner.

Walnut stocks were also available and almost the same as the ones available for the Model 1899 in the early 1900s. You can see the slight differences between the 44 DA and the 38 HE frames in the image below and the walnut stocks that were factory originals. These early walnut stocks are getting quite pricey.

Can you take a picture of the lower rear of the butt-frame to show how the square conversion stocks were made?
Sorry for so long for the picture of the lower rear of the butt-frame but here it is.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:45 AM
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Welcome to the forum. It may be my monitor or it could merely be dirt or grime but the photo showing the butt looks like there is a weld joint toward the rear perhaps indicating that the square butt frame was added to a round butt.

In the photo with the tape measure it looks like the cylinder is longer than 1.5" and according to resident expert Mike Maher, that would indicate a .44-40 as opposed to .44 Russian.
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:43 AM
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The grip frame has been modified to a square butt. As JSR III stated; it's welded and it looks like a nice job. The trigger return spring is a replacement "wire" spring. The factory spring is a flat 'leaf' spring.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR III View Post
Welcome to the forum. It may be my monitor or it could merely be dirt or grime but the photo showing the butt looks like there is a weld joint toward the rear perhaps indicating that the square butt frame was added to a round butt.

In the photo with the tape measure it looks like the cylinder is longer than 1.5" and according to resident expert Mike Maher, that would indicate a .44-40 as opposed to .44 Russian.
The grip frame has been modified to a square butt. As JSR III stated; it's welded and it looks like a nice job. The trigger return spring is a replacement "wire" spring. The factory spring is a flat 'leaf' spring.
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James and Mike - thanks for your input. Attached are three more pictures. 1) bottom of the butt showing serial number that matches the one on the cylinder, 2) other side of the butt frame, and 3) tape measure giving you a better look at the length of the cylinder.

If welded, did they just square off a round butt or add new?

Thanks,
Ernie
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:07 PM
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Cylinder is 1 7/16" which is consistent with the .44 Russian cartridge. Your photo of the butt with the serial number shows the weld lines for both the heel and the toe welds. In other words; the welds added material to both ends of the grip frame. The grip profile looks suspiciously like a C**T. Blasphemy!
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:23 PM
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This is the coolest revolver I've seen on here in awhile. Yes modified to SB. Yes .44 Russian. Double action. Matching serial numbers. How cool is that! I'd like to know who this belonged to.
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