|
|
04-12-2018, 10:05 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gillette Wyoming
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 1,905
Liked 1,294 Times in 350 Posts
|
|
How much documentation is needed?
I'm looking at an auction that claims to have Pancho Villas New 3rd model.
I assume that their is hundreds of guns that are claimed to have belonged to famous gunslingers.
This one has his birth name engraved on the backstrap witch kinda raises a red flag to me.
It also has a 1936 letter from a saddle maker in FT Worth that claims that Pancho Villa left it there to be repaired and he never returned to pick it up.
And a couple of letters that document where it has been since then.
The Factory letter says it was shipped to MW Robinson in New York for export.
What are the chances this is really Pancho Villas gun? It seems like you would basically be taking the word of a saddle maker from 1936. I'm not sure how reliable that would be.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
I'm not in a position to bid on this gun. If anyone is interested I can pass on the auction information.
Wing master
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-12-2018, 10:11 PM
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,787
Likes: 938
Liked 18,880 Times in 9,242 Posts
|
|
If I were in the market for such a gun, I would bid/offer up to what I thought it was worth if the gun were not embellished. (Minus 10% if the engraving was cheesy ). This is usually phrased "buy the gun, not the story".
__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
|
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-12-2018, 10:25 PM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
|
|
We just had a long thread on “Pancho’s Pistol” not too long ago.
Peruse this to see what people generally think of such claims:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearm...#post139936841
One letter by some unknown dude written 13 years after Pancho’s death is a bit underwhelming. I would think a gun like that would have to have ironclad provenance accepted as genuine by one of the major auction houses before I would entertain the notion that there MIGHT be something to it. I’d still not be interested, though, and I couldn’t afford it
Last edited by Absalom; 04-12-2018 at 10:33 PM.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-13-2018, 03:46 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 3,219
Liked 6,869 Times in 1,863 Posts
|
|
As stated above, buy the gun, not the story.
The only way I might even consider such a gun is if there was solid proof that a firearm with a certain serial number was linked to a reknowned individual. Such as if a factory letter from Roy Jinks stated that it was shipped to Pancho Villa. Other documentation that might be acceptable would be official documentation originating from an authority such as a confiscating official or maybe a documentation of the estate of an individual documented by an authority or public official. Such as a will or documentation of the property in a public record made at a time contemporary to the individual, and not altered or forged.
A letter from a saddle maker from 1936--I could create a few hundred of these in an afternoon.
I once was offered for sale at a tag sale in the late 1990's Robert E Lee's coffee grinder. Had a patent date of around 1900 on it and Lee died in 1870. But the fellow selling it insisted that his grandfather or great grandfather bought it off of the estate of Robert E Lee. Now, if he said so, it certainly must be so!
Last edited by mrcvs; 04-13-2018 at 03:59 AM.
Reason: To add an anecdote
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-13-2018, 08:31 AM
|
Banned
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 271
Liked 1,207 Times in 659 Posts
|
|
Sounds legit to me! If it's on the internet it's true right?
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-13-2018, 09:53 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
|
|
There are many such claims made for guns of Dilinger, Annie Oakley, Custer etc. Just because someone says it is true doesn't make it so. Most S&W's back in the day shipped to distributors and unless their records are also included showing shipment or purchase by that famous individual it is difficult to prove.
Letters of provenance and other origination documents can also be faked. I could take some old paper and forge a letter from Pancho himself but even that wouldn't prove anything.
While the prospect of owning such a gun is attractive, the possibility of it being real not so much.
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497
|
04-13-2018, 10:06 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,949 Times in 14,015 Posts
|
|
Pancho had thousands of guns. They show up all the time.
|
04-13-2018, 10:19 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Hanover, Virginia
Posts: 1,911
Likes: 3,164
Liked 5,636 Times in 1,398 Posts
|
|
PM me if you want Pancho's genuine M1 Garand. That is the only reason he left the S&W with the saddle maker....so he could hop over to John Canesius house for that proto M1.
Wait.....I'll play the song again....maybe it was Lefty I'm thinking about.
Anyway.....the provenance on the M1 is ironclad, cannot be refuted... trust me
PS: I also have Ike's wartime personal sidearm....it is a absolutely pristine Glock....if you bought R.E. Lee's coffee grinder, you are going to love this one.
__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570
|
04-13-2018, 11:24 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Odessa, Texas
Posts: 3,219
Likes: 4,024
Liked 3,698 Times in 1,466 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs
I once was offered for sale at a tag sale in the late 1990's Robert E Lee's coffee grinder. Had a patent date of around 1900 on it and Lee died in 1870. But the fellow selling it insisted that his grandfather or great grandfather bought it off of the estate of Robert E Lee. Now, if he said so, it certainly must be so!
|
By coincidence I have a samurai sword that General Lee carried at the Boston Tea Party.
I may have bought it at the same place.
Last edited by OFT II; 04-13-2018 at 11:25 AM.
|
04-13-2018, 11:41 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ALBUQUERQUE, NM
Posts: 13,847
Likes: 8,067
Liked 25,340 Times in 8,518 Posts
|
|
Didn’t know that Pancho ever went to Ft. Worth?
He spent a lot of time in El Paso, that’s super well documented.
He also went to Cloudcroft, NM, but thats just up the road from El Paso.
The more outrageous the claim,
The more proof that is required!
I think the Railroad up to Cloudcroft was in place when Pancho visited.
If it was, he would have gone over the Mexican Canyon Trestle.
__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Last edited by THE PILGRIM; 04-13-2018 at 02:22 PM.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-13-2018, 10:49 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gillette Wyoming
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 1,905
Liked 1,294 Times in 350 Posts
|
|
Thats kinda how I felt when I saw the auction. I just didn't know their was that many guns that were claimed to belong to Pancho. He must have been quite the collector.
Wingmaster
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|