.38 Single-Action 2nd Model

[Ronald_55]

Seems to be a rash of top break guns up for sale in my area from several manufacturers. I picked up the pictured S&W a few days ago.

Research makes me believe it is a .38 Single-Action 2nd Model with a 6 inch barrel.

Few questions though.

The Serial number on the butt is 61XX which would seem to be early on in the 1877-1891 production period. I swear I read the top of the barrel to say 1880 though. Does that seem right?

The cylinder carries a 412XXX number. Like newer models, would this be a serial number saying this is mismatched?

The inside of the grips look to have initials scratched in plus an X on each one. Were these ever numbered like later wood grips?

Thanks in advance everyone.
Sorry for the blurry pic of the top of the barrel.

[Ronald_55]

Originally Posted by BMur

Hey Ronald 55,

Nice and scarce long barrel.

Unfortunately it’s not original to that frame. Your gun is a early 2nd model single action that replaced the earlier Baby Russian beginning in late 1877.

I have several of these in my collection. Several matching 5” barrels and one ultra rare 10” barrel.
The 6,8 & 10” barrels on the model 2 were available but not until much later than your frame serial number.

I’ve looked for a long time and the earliest “Matching” serial numbers long barrel didn’t appear until after serial number 48,000 by my research.

You need to check the serial number on the barrel and latch. There is no way it will match the frame number or the very late Double Action cylinder. Parts swap on the DA and SA so you have to check serial numbers prior to purchasing these top breaks!

Please let us know what serial numbers you see on the latch and barrel. Both numbers are on the underside of the latch and in the slot “flat area” on the back of the barrel.

Murph

Murph
Thanks. Here is the number on the back of the latch. Maybe you can read it better than me.

I don't follow where you mean on the barrel. I don't see one so far.

For what I paid I am still on the side I feel comfortable with just having a parts gun. Would have been nice to have a matched one, but I am really not a collector.

[Ronald_55]

Originally Posted by BMur

Great photo!

Looks like 1220. So that’s also not matching but interesting!

Ok so the barrel number is the most important .

Check out my copy of your photo. I point where the barrel number is. On those little flat areas. It’s best to use a Q-tip with alcohol or any solvent.

Murph

So far this is the best I can get.

Left side is pretty bad.

[merl67]

Well the Barrel and latch match 1220. How long is that barrel?

[merl67]

Murph you got better eyes than me lol

[Ronald_55]

Originally Posted by BMur

I like to think I do Randy but there might be a 1 hiding next to that 209. It’s not on the latch though? The barrel address will be proof positive. If it’s 209 the last patent must be 1880. Which puts it off a SA mod 2 about 1881-2. Super Rare! Very early!

If it’s 1209 then the last patent will likely be 1882 which makes it much later and from a Model 3 DA from about 1886-7 timeframe.

Murph

Murph

Ok, looks like the latch does have a 9.

6 inch barrel.

Last patent date. Is that 1889?

Thanks for the insight.

[glowe]

The April 9, 1889 last date is only found on a 38 DA, 4th Model. I believe there might be more numbers hiding in the pitting??

The 38 Single Action, 2nd Model last date is July 25, 1871.

[Ronald_55]

Originally Posted by glowe

The April 9, 1889 last date is only found on a 38 DA, 4th Model. I believe there might be more numbers hiding in the pitting??

The 38 Single Action, 2nd Model last date is July 25, 1871.

Thanks Gary


Murp

So where does this latest set of pics put us in the rarity scheme of tgat barrel?

Thanks

[Ronald_55]

Originally Posted by BMur

Oh Well,
Yeah, that late patent date is the clincher! There has to be another number ahead of the serial number 12 on the right side flat on the barrel. Likely a 4. Q-tip time! The 1889 patent date could still be applicable to a late Mod 3 DA since they were made til 1895 and have overlapping features. Depends on what number you find on the barrel ahead of the 12.

Still, the 6” barrel is scarce but too bad it wasn’t an earlier number. That would have been huge! So research still points at the long barrels (6,8,& 10”) being later production. I do have a matching 5” barrel Model 2 DA TB that dates to 1882. Those Model 2 DA long barrels are the earliest that I’ve recorded. The SA’s never seem to be earlier than 1885 for some reason.

So to answer your question on rarity and value impact? I’ve watched several auctions with DA topbreaks with 6” barrels sell for up to $600. None of them had high finish. Some were even Brown. The one thing that many collectors don’t realize is that there are a lot of folks out there that also collect rare parts for these Antique Smiths. A serial number 3 if going ahead of the 12 would be better than a 4 because a 4 would put the scarce barrel in the 1900 production timeline making it modern instead of the more desirable Antique. Q-tip time!

** I’m watching a few parts auctions right now that include some TB long barrels. I’ll post the results in a few days. They aren’t going cheap!

Murph

Murph

Had a facepalm moment. The cylinder probably matches the barrel. See pic. I could not find the 4 on the barrel, but it is worn there where the frame touches it.

So it is a 4. 412209 to be exact.

Well I can't win lately. lol

Yeah I am interested to see what those actions do. Is there a preferred site for parts auctions for these?

Thanks

[glowe]

The barrel of a 6" 38 DA was never done in two pieces. The 6" barrel was forged in one piece. While 6" barrels are not as common as other lengths, they were by no means scarce. Looking at the SWCA database, I find that of all models of 38 Double Actions; 2% were 2", 58% were 3.25", 15% were 4", 12% were 5", and 10% were 6". With over 551,000 manufactured, one could calculate that over 55,000 6" barreled 38 DAs were manufactured. So the slight ridge around the barrel is puzzling? Could it be a barrel budge?

Another question is what is the "official" age of the revolver? It is understood that the number stamped on the butt-frame of a S&W revolver is the official serial number of the gun, so yours should still qualify as an antique. Except for a few states, one would be free to buy or sell that gun without an FFL involved.

[glowe]

There are no differences between antique and modern guns in the database. This resource is from SWCA members who have entered guns they own or have owned for the last 20 years or so. Nothing to do with factory production records. Also, most SWCA members have obtained ship dates of their guns, as a perk to SWCA, allowing us to do a pretty damn good job of estimating ship dates for the Forum members who are asking for this information. BMUR, maybe you should consider joining SWCA.

The 38 Perfected is a different model, different barrel, and different serial number range, so does not have anything to do with this thread. The fact that they were manufactured in similar percentages are coincidence but not related. Actually, that says a lot about what the buyers wanted in terms of barrel lengths for this style of gun. The OP’s barrel is from around 1901 and there is no evidence that the factory used 2 piece barrels after the 1870s & 1880s, except for the rare extra-long lengths. I have owned several 6" 38 DAs through the years, from antiques to modern, and none had a hint of a seam. Could the OP’s gun have a two piece barrel, doubtful, but not impossible. One thing for sure is that it would not have been the standard of manufacture in 1900 and after.

Lastly, there is no exact science in much of this, since factory records often are not detailed enough to provide rock solid evidence, so any and all arguments can be made by members. All I am trying to do is help the OPs on this Forum to better understand what they most likely have. All is open to speculation and everything is a person's best estimates, given resources and research materials available. Wanting to dispute most everything people on this Forum report does not help the OP in their quest for answers to their questions.

[mmaher94087]

Murph, someone fed you a plate of Road Apples. Join the SWCA. The subject of two-piece barrels has been discussed and the facts are that the barrels longer than 6" (but not the 8" or 10" target barrels) were two piece. The Revolving Rifle barrel is the best example of a two-piece barrel. The reason for the two-piece was that the longer barrels had a tendency to warp as they cooled from forging. S&W found that they could consistently forge 6" barrels but as the tube got longer then they experienced a higher reject rate. The warp was attributed to the cooling rate of a hollow tube as opposed to the mass of the breach material. Join the SWCA and purchase the books (four compendiums of past Journals; but only three are available as one book is sold out).

[BMur]

Hey Mike,
Thanks very much for that kind information. I'm beside myself regarding the PM. I'm also amazed at how some people revisit childhood antics but I can't be bothered by it. I guess I will try to join then. Thanks also for the tip on the books. I like books!

I have read your post regarding the long barrels. You posted that information before and I remember it and documented your input. I also documented you as saying that Smith & Wesson wasted nothing when it came to parts etc.

I guess what I'm saying and "VERY SPECIFIC" to earliest production 6" barrels? I'm not talking about later production that became one of the Factory standard available barrel lengths.

This was most definitely "NOT TRUE" of early production "prior to about 1885". The factory catalog of 1883 actually states that the company was not in the least bit interested in "Special Order items" and offered limited barrel lengths at that time( 3 1/4" & 4")....but I want to get the wording correct so I will post that when I get home tonight. Basically they state in the "Factory Catalog" "Take it or leave it"...if you don't like it go some place else. So they weren't fans of longer barrels as late as 1883!! That accounts for a lot of 38cal top breaks already manufactured by that time!

Only the earliest long barrels seem to me to be "SPECIAL ORDER". That includes the 6" barrel but only early in production.
I will present more info later tonight when I get home. We also tried really hard to find a 5" long barrel BABY RUSSIAN because MR. JINKS lists them as available in his book but I have never seen or heard of one. I can present a timeline later tonight.

I don't know this for sure but it is very possible that the earliest 6" long barrels were also two piece. That is basically all that I am saying. I have to do some research on my notes on "Earliest serial numbers" and see what I come up with.

I've never been a fan of co-mingling Modern gun information with Antique production. ONLY because it hides or obscures rarity.... The information on production must also be separated by Models in my opinion.... That includes barrel lengths found in research.

I can say even without looking at my research notes that the Model 2 DA TB in a 6" barrel is "VERY RARE"... Those were made I believe between 1880-1884....which follows my timeline exactly regarding the longer 6" barrels. If anyone has a 6" barrel Model 2 DA TB...I'd sure like to see it! Remember it has to be matching and have the correct barrel address and Patent dates.
35 years of searching I've seen ZERO! but they are listed as part of production. ( I have always liked that early designed cylinder)

Thanks again for the inside scoop!

Murph

[mmaher94087]

I'm not familiar with Roy's reference to a 5" Baby Russian. I'm thinking that it's a typo in the publication you read as both the 1966 and 1975 editions of the book "Smith & Wesson 1857-1945" (Neal & Jinks) state barrel lengths for the Model 2, 1st Issue (Baby Russian) as 4" maximum.

As for the OPs 2nd Model, 2nd Issue 6" barrel being two-piece; I have both 5" and 8" barrels that are one piece forgings. I'll need to look at my .38 DA's to see how many have the 6" barrel.

The four books I referenced are collections of 50 years of the Journal of the SWCA organization's newsletters. These are comprised of articles written by members about their findings on S&W's and include articles by Roy Jinks, Author, Historian, ex-Product Manager, Smith & Wesson.

Please don't TRY to join- JOIN NOW as we are having our 50th SWCA anniversary in Tulsa this June, are already reserving rooms and are close to 50% sold out. A bit expensive but well worth it considering four days of the show, the accommodations, displays, For Sale tables, cocktail night (catered food) Awards Banquet meal, comradery, expert talks, live and silent auctions, Sunday breakfast and the chance to see some very scarce S&W items that one may not see again in ones lifetime.

This is ONLY open to SWCA members and pre-registered guests. The general public is NOT allowed. If you don't join now then the opportunity is lost for the June symposium.

[BMur]

Wow,
That sounds like a blast! I really like Tulsa. The show there is beyond amazing. I'm always broke when I leave that show. Sounds like a great time will be had by all.

The reference on the 5" barrel Baby Russian is from the book written by Roy Jinks copyright 1977 " History of Smith & Wesson. The little Blue book?

Page 107.(ref Baby Russians) Quote: The first production guns with 3 1/4" and 4" barrels were available for sale in July of 1876, and these were followed shortly thereafter by a 5" barrel model.

Also, in reference to the longer special order barrels.

**My 10" 38 cal Single Action 2nd model dates to 1890 and has the two piece barrel

** My 8" barrel 38 cal DA 3rd Model also has a two piece barrel and also dates to about 1890-2. My letter came back as not found in records but the numbers match so it's real.

** I also have a 8" 32 cal DA 4th Model that dates to about 1890 also and has a two piece barrel.

I'm going to start a new thread on the 6" barrel lengths for the "Antique" top breaks.

[Ronald_55]

Originally Posted by BMur

I’m not sure that we can use General production numbers as applicable to scarce to rare “Antique” production. I have no doubt those numbers are correct but are they “ specific “ to antique production? Obviously not. Nor are they specific to any one model.

Also I’ve seen these exact same percentages posted by GLOWE regarding the 38 perfected model which is a “modern” gun and not applicable to antique production! That includes near 60,000 modern guns produced. Probably 100,000 model 4’s that are post 1900, Then there’s the 15,000 modern model 5’s And the over 200,000 Modern hammerless 38 cal Variations of which “all” were available in 6” barrel!

Regarding the two piece barrel? “ Never” manufactured in two piece is an absolute that tends to come back at you on this forum. I would agree that the 6” “Modern” perfected model was never made in two pieces but much earlier and scarce antique barrels? Every one I produce with that telltale line will of course be a bulge! And a bulge in the “exact” location that the line is seen.

Murph

Murph

To round this up about my gun, let me state what I understand.

Frame is a early .38 SA? Or do we have a way to tell? Short of the spur trigger, is there anything that lets us know exactly what it is? Serial is low enough to be in several groups.

Barrel based on the high serial would be expected to be from a .38 DA 4th Model?

Just trying to fully verify. I like to document as much as I can about my firearms. I am only able to play in the shallow end of the pool when it comes to these antiques. Lots of the above info is in the 12 foot end.

I wish I could justify a letter for this, but I guess it would take 2 letters to complete the info. That is more than I am willing to add to my investment on this.

Thanks

[BMur]

Hey Ron,
The frame is definitely an early 38 2nd model Single action. The design is specific to the second model... One could claim it's off an earlier Baby Russian? but that is not possible since the earlier frame has a very unique ejector release under the frame. This release is not visible on your frame from the photo's you've provided. So it's most definitely an early 2nd model frame that by serial number probably dates to 1878-1879.

The barrel is definitely a post 1900 Model 4 Double Action .38 cal long barrel. As mentioned before, The Post 1898 ERA (Modern) finds the vast majority of the 6" barrels. So the longer 6" barrel "Post" 1898 probably doesn't have a lot of value unfortunately.

You had me going when you posted it....I was rooting for you and hoping it was matching.. Oh well. You got to admit, it looks pretty nice with that long barrel on it! Maybe you should just leave it like it is and enjoy it.

***** Oh, one last thing.....Can you take a close look at the barrel and see if you can see that vertical line on the barrel about an inch in front of the ejector housing? That was the photo with the yellow arrow pointing at what "looks" like a line on the barrel?

Murph

[Ronald_55]

Originally Posted by BMur

Hey Ron,
The frame is definitely an early 38 2nd model Single action. The design is specific to the second model... One could claim it's off an earlier Baby Russian? but that is not possible since the earlier frame has a very unique ejector release under the frame. This release is not visible on your frame from the photo's you've provided. So it's most definitely an early 2nd model frame that by serial number probably dates to 1878-1879.

The barrel is definitely a post 1900 Model 4 Double Action .38 cal long barrel. As mentioned before, The Post 1898 ERA (Modern) finds the vast majority of the 6" barrels. So the longer 6" barrel "Post" 1898 probably doesn't have a lot of value unfortunately.

You had me going when you posted it....I was rooting for you and hoping it was matching.. Oh well. You got to admit, it looks pretty nice with that long barrel on it! Maybe you should just leave it like it is and enjoy it.

***** Oh, one last thing.....Can you take a close look at the barrel and see if you can see that vertical line on the barrel about an inch in front of the ejector housing? That was the photo with the yellow arrow pointing at what "looks" like a line on the barrel?

Murph

Murph

Thanks. I just wanted to confirm the details. The long barrel is what I liked on it myself

I was hoping too. I have missed out on several opportunities lately and it would have been nice if this was more than just a good old shooter. Well I haven't shot it yet. May turn out to not even be that. lol Unless a 38 DA 4th frame or a .38 SA 2nd barrel end up coming my way cheap, I will probably just keep this as is.

Thing that gets me is how even the patina is. Must have been mated up a while. Or I am not looking at it close enough.

I uploaded some close ups of both sides of that area. I see what could be a line on one side, but not sure on the other.

Thanks

Ronald

[BMur]

Thanks Ronald.

Murph