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Old 05-21-2018, 12:23 PM
NewDeparture NewDeparture is offline
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Default .38-44 New Model Number Three Target

SN#31XX, chambered in .38-44 Target. This one has the shorter topstrap and cylinder (1 7/16").

Matching SN on frame, cylinder and barrel. I also expected to find a SN on latch and stocks but there is nothing stamped nor written there.

The joint pivot was replaced with a nickel plated one. Rear sight blade was also replaced.

Other than that and some slight rotational play in the cylinder, it seems to be in decent condition.
Although IŽm not quite happy with overall condition (I guess it may fall within "Fair" and "Good" maybe?) this was the second one IŽve seen in more than 15 years (first one was pristine but not for sale) so I had to grab it.

Newdeparture
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:00 PM
opoefc opoefc is online now
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Nice find, as I'm sure an examples of that model is very uncommon in South America. Missing serial numbers in places that you usually see them seems to occur more commonly in target models, in my opinion. Why? I have no idea. I used to think that was because the unnumbered part was a replacement, but I see that situation too often to think all those parts failed and had to be replaced for that to be correct. Ed.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:27 PM
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A couple of questions---------

How does one determine the rear sight blade has been replaced?

I too have a NM #3 (with target sights) with the optional Russian spur trigger guard---with a checkered spur yet--special order---letters with it. What in the world did they use that spur for---not to mention a checkered spur? I have tried to use it for the middle finger with a one hand hold---forget about it!! It's a great thing to grab onto using a two hand hold----but (and while I wasn't there at the time) I've never seen (photos of) any target shooter of the era using a two hand hold. (And please don't say it was used to hook on to the sashes. I've never seen any pictures of target shooters wearing sashes either.)

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:49 PM
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It was probably made for E.T. Remember his middle finger was twice as long as his trigger finger .
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Nice find, as I'm sure an examples of that model is very uncommon in South America. Missing serial numbers in places that you usually see them seems to occur more commonly in target models, in my opinion. Why? I have no idea. I used to think that was because the unnumbered part was a replacement, but I see that situation too often to think all those parts failed and had to be replaced for that to be correct. Ed.
Thanks Ed,

Normally I would have paid more attention to both condition and matching parts, but I thought it would be difficult to come across another one of these. As per SCSW, only 1000 or so were made in this caliber/cylinder configuration.

As per SCSW also, less than one third of the total production run was chambered in .38-44 (including both long and short cylinders), all others being chambered in .32-44 target (more than 66%).

Oddly enough, IŽve never seen nor heard of one chambered in .32-44 target. Go figure.
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
A couple of questions---------

How does one determine the rear sight blade has been replaced?

I too have a NM #3 (with target sights) with the optional Russian spur trigger guard---with a checkered spur yet--special order---letters with it. What in the world did they use that spur for---not to mention a checkered spur? I have tried to use it for the middle finger with a one hand hold---forget about it!! It's a great thing to grab onto using a two hand hold----but (and while I wasn't there at the time) I've never seen (photos of) any target shooter of the era using a two hand hold. (And please don't say it was used to hook on to the sashes. I've never seen any pictures of target shooters wearing sashes either.)

Ralph Tremaine
Ralph,

it is a non original blade, its shape being different from the original ones. Otherwise I would nŽt know for sure. IŽll post some pictures of it.

Maybe itŽs just me, but I find the trigger guard spur not so uncomfortable for placing the middle finger when shooting with a one hand hold. It just feels a little weird. Anyway, not my first choice for one hand hold, though.
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy View Post
It was probably made for E.T. Remember his middle finger was twice as long as his trigger finger .
No response to that one. LOL
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:27 PM
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NewDeparture, check your barrel hinge pin and screw as they appear to be installed backwards. The 'witness' marks (alignment strikes) on the pivot pin and the frame at the hinge should align.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:18 AM
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NewDeparture, check your barrel hinge pin and screw as they appear to be installed backwards. The 'witness' marks (alignment strikes) on the pivot pin and the frame at the hinge should align.
Thanks Mike,

both the hinge pin and screw are nickel plated so IŽll try to replace them with a blued set of parts.

The alignment marks were correctly faced together however the hinge pin doesnŽt fit properly and sticks out a little bit.

I took it apart for a good cleaning now:
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:39 AM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
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"..the hinge pin doesnŽt fit properly and sticks out a little bit." That's what lead me to think it was installed wrongly.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:35 PM
NewDeparture NewDeparture is offline
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Mike,

Yes, I thought that too when I got it.

HereŽs another picture before disassembling. Pin and frame marks were aligned like they should. However, the pin seems to be somewhat large in diameter and it won t go all the way down.

At first I thought of filing it down but hopefully IŽll get a replacement, so IŽll try that before modifying anything.

Thanks,

NewDeparture
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:58 PM
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Given my somewhat obsessive interest in sights, and the lack of the photo to be forthcoming, I'm going to hazard a guess your "non original blade" (the top of which shows in the (disassembled) photo) is a Lyman #19 (also known as an "ivory slide" sight). Now, truth be known, that's a fairly simple deduction in view of the fact the upper portion of the Lyman blade is considerably thicker than the S&W blade (as is the blade shown in the photo)---and the fact that there were only two commercially available blades that will fit your base---S&W and Lyman. As to whether it's original or not, a letter might tell you---and might not---as it was available as an option. I'll hazard another guess, and agree it's not original; simply because they were normally fitted in conjunction with a Lyman ivory bead front (#16)----which yours is not. The remaining choice is the rear's original, and the front is a replacement. The acid test of my guess is the appearance of the rear blade----it should have an ivory bar on either side of the notch---the proper sight picture being the front bead centered in the notch and in line with the rear bars---one of, if not THE first of the "three dot" sights.

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 05-23-2018, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
Given my somewhat obsessive interest in sights, and the lack of the photo to be forthcoming, I'm going to hazard a guess your "non original blade" (the top of which shows in the (disassembled) photo) is a Lyman #19 (also known as an "ivory slide" sight). Now, truth be known, that's a fairly simple deduction in view of the fact the upper portion of the Lyman blade is considerably thicker than the S&W blade (as is the blade shown in the photo)---and the fact that there were only two commercially available blades that will fit your base---S&W and Lyman. As to whether it's original or not, a letter might tell you---and might not---as it was available as an option. I'll hazard another guess, and agree it's not original; simply because they were normally fitted in conjunction with a Lyman ivory bead front (#16)----which yours is not. The remaining choice is the rear's original, and the front is a replacement. The acid test of my guess is the appearance of the rear blade----it should have an ivory bar on either side of the notch---the proper sight picture being the front bead centered in the notch and in line with the rear bars---one of, if not THE first of the "three dot" sights.

Ralph Tremaine
Cool now that is good information,thanks for shareing that with us Mr Ralph ,you always bring it.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NewDeparture View Post
Mike,

Yes, I thought that too when I got it.

HereŽs another picture before disassembling. Pin and frame marks were aligned like they should. However, the pin seems to be somewhat large in diameter and it won t go all the way down.

At first I thought of filing it down but hopefully IŽll get a replacement, so IŽll try that before modifying anything.

Thanks,

NewDeparture
It occurs to me if the pin was somewhat large in diameter, it wouldn't fit in the hole at all---unless it was tapered (it isn't). A more likely explanation is the joint pivot (the female portion of the fastener) is boogered. Specifically, there is a triangular protrusion under the flange (on the joint pivot) directly in line with the witness mark/alignment mark/whatever which fits into a triangular recess in the frame. I'll suggest either the triangular protrusion under the flange, and/or its recess in the frame has been damaged/malformed somewhere along the line by the assembly process commonly known as brute force and awkwardness----a big no-no. I reckon it's also possible the offending portion of the joint pivot (if applicable) could have come to be by less than proper plating----assuming the plating was done in the aftermarket.

The good news is I know how to fix it. Put the gun in a box, and ship it off to Chris Hirsch, in Sugar Land, Texas---a gunsmith specializing in the repair and restoration of antique firearms----and a certified WIZARD. (And if it's simply a matter of replacing the joint pivot, odds are he'll have the part. And I reckon he could make one from scratch if need be---although I doubt if the need be.)

Ralph Tremaine

It's worth noting the alignment marks must be PERFECTLY aligned BEFORE attempting to seat the joint pivot in the frame---PERFECTLY!! I know this because mine weren't when I attempted to put it back together after the sitting and staring involved in constructing my diagnosis (above). A pair of smooth parallel pliers (and magnification) came to the rescue (in grasping and turning the joint pivot in the frame until the marks were dead nuts perfect). And then---tap-tap---tiny tap-tap!!

Last edited by rct269; 05-23-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:32 PM
NewDeparture NewDeparture is offline
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Long time without updating, but IŽve finally made some progress: I found a replacement joint pivot and screw, both blued (the one that came in was nickel plated).

Ralph (rct269) you were right: the protruding pin was due to a damaged joint pivot. Worst of all, the triangular recess in the frame was also damaged and the new joint pivot just didn't fit. I guess some previous owner didn't align the marks so he hammered the heck out of it to get it into place.

I spent a few hours with a set of needle files and a magnifying glass in order to get the triangular recess in the frame back into shape.
I was able to do so very carefully and now the new joint pivot fits perfectly into place.

DidnŽt have time to take pictures yet, but IŽll do that soon.

NewDeparture.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:41 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
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I love happy endings. Congratulations.
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:43 AM
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Yes congratulations and thanks for the update especially the needle file fix I'll stick that into my note book .
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:51 PM
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Very nice looking older pistols here.
Steve
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Old 07-20-2018, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
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No response to that one. LOL
It's just as well, really.
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