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Old 07-21-2018, 10:00 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is online now
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Default No 2 Army Type 7/8 Transition Model

Please refer to the following: Smith and Wesson Model 2 Army Revolver

Note that there are different Types, and Type 8 (serial number 62471 to 71467 differed from Type 7 (serial number 60120 to 62242) with regards to the following characteristics: Hammer knurling (squared off on Type 8 model), Trigger face (Plain Type 7, knurled Type 8), Grip escutcheon (Flat Type 7, dished Type 8), and Grip top (9/16" vs 3/8" lip).

You will note that there is a gap in serialization between Type 7 and Type 8 from 62243 to 62470. I am not sure if because this is truly considered to be a transitional period between Type 7 and Type 8, and overlapping features exist, if there is believed to be only Type 7 revolvers or Type 8 revolvers, but there are overlapping serial numbers for each type, or if there wasn't enough data to determine where Type 7 ends and Type 8 begins.

I did not remove the grips, but this one is right as rain. So, I don't know for sure about the grip top, but the attached photographs demonstrate that this one, number 62440, which shipped in August 1868 contains the Type 7 hammer knurling and Type 7 plain faced trigger, but contains the dished Type 8 grip escutcheon.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:05 PM
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And the photographs...

One photograph depicts the Model 1 1/2 I bought with this one. The pair were purchased in Wednesday.
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Last edited by mrcvs; 07-21-2018 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 07-22-2018, 09:29 AM
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SOAPBOX: This may be heresy, but I have to say that while the slight appearance changes in the production of the Model 2 are of interest to some, I do not see much support for differentiating the Model 2 this way? I'm still sticking with the general model designation without regards to the Type. It does not affect the value to 99.9% of the collectors out there. No significant mechanical changes were made that would have warranted official type designations, and there is no difference in function of the gun. Heck, the 2 pin variation is not even formally differentiated by any publication. Perhaps 2 pin should have been 1st Issue and the 3 pin should have been 2nd Issue, but even making that differentiation has never caught fire.

I have certainly added my revolvers to the Model 2 Project, but do not collect them or value them by the Ron's type designations. Not to diminish any desire to acquire all the types noted in Ron's research, but I am wondering if you are collecting all the types, and why it makes a difference whether your revolver is Type 7 or Type 8??
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:43 AM
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No not collecting all the Types nor does it matter to me nor affect value in any way or fashion. This came about when attempting to submit to the database and noting the serial number did not fall within a delineated Type range. So I looked at the characteristics of each type and noted I had a combination of each. This only matters for the "historical record" should someone care now, or in the future, near or distant. At the time I purchased this last week, I had no idea what Type I was purchasing. My only concern was getting out of there as fast as I could before the seller could change his mind about the $800 selling price. NOTE: Photographs poorly represent the condition of this one. It's a solid 90%.

Last edited by mrcvs; 07-22-2018 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:48 AM
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I should add I collect "condition" more than anything. Unless ridiculously cheap relative to condition, like $100 for a 20% gun, I'm generally not interested in a brown gun unless a rare, rare variation. As others have suggested in other posts, there is a glut of brown guns out there and these will represent poor value, negative investment return. There always will be an interest in "condition". Fortunately, this one has condition and was ridiculously cheap.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:26 PM
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. . . Fortunately, this one has condition and was ridiculously cheap.
It happens that way once and awhile.
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
SOAPBOX: This may be heresy, but I have to say that while the slight appearance changes in the production of the Model 2 are of interest to some, I do not see much support for differentiating the Model 2 this way? I'm still sticking with the general model designation without regards to the Type. It does not affect the value to 99.9% of the collectors out there. No significant mechanical changes were made that would have warranted official type designations, and there is no difference in function of the gun. Heck, the 2 pin variation is not even formally differentiated by any publication. Perhaps 2 pin should have been 1st Issue and the 3 pin should have been 2nd Issue, but even making that differentiation has never caught fire.

I have certainly added my revolvers to the Model 2 Project, but do not collect them or value them by the Ron's type designations. Not to diminish any desire to acquire all the types noted in Ron's research, but I am wondering if you are collecting all the types, and why it makes a difference whether your revolver is Type 7 or Type 8??
Gary, your point is well made from a collecting perspective, since the ad infinitum end to this argument would be that every gun is its own unique variant in some way or another.

That said, as a historian of American enterprise and mass-production, these variants are of tremendous interest to me. One aspect of this that many people don't give much thought to is the evolution of "production engineering," which means engineering the product to make it easier to manufacture. The differences between the 1st and 2nd issues of the Model 1 are largely based on making the gun easier to manufacture. The rare 2nd issue, straight side plate variant is a good example of the factory making a change to the design that made manufacturing simpler, and that simultaneously made the gun much less reliable. They only made a few hundred of these before realizing the error of their ways and making a slight design change to improve reliability ... but it all speaks to the infancy of production engineering (a product of mass-production), and the need for quality control.

So you're right that from a collecting point of view, it can seem absurd to chase down every possible variant ... but from the perspective of telling a larger story about the first of modern American enterprise, this is one of the most tangible clues we have of businesses learning to juggle the manifold challenges of mass-producing a high quality product.

Mike
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Old 07-23-2018, 03:30 PM
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Collecting even one obsolete firearm is basically nonsense so
"whatever floats your boat"
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Old 07-23-2018, 05:04 PM
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. . . you're right that from a collecting point of view, it can seem absurd to chase down every possible variant ... but from the perspective of telling a larger story about the first of modern American enterprise . . .
Mike
. . . and I love a good story! I will buy the Model 2 book if and when it comes out, then read it from cover to cover at least twice.
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Old 07-23-2018, 05:15 PM
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Collecting even one obsolete firearm is basically nonsense . . .
I have over 500 rounds of 32RF and still shoot most of mine at least once every year. The thrill of knowing how this early generation of S&Ws function gives me great satisfaction, respect, and amazement that a firearm over 150 years old still function and shoots as if it were new.

Does it still perform the tasks it was designed for in Civil War times? Absolutely. Can it fire 6 shots as fast as you can cock the hammer? Absolutely. Would I think the gun is so obsolete that it would not inflict a great deal of damage to its target? I would not stand in front of the muzzle to find out any volunteers? Obsolete is a state of mind.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:02 PM
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Gary,

Where did you locate .32 RF ammunition?
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:48 PM
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Back in the 1990s, just about all my collection was antique S&Ws. You could pick up nice Model 2s for under $250 and Model 1 1/2s for under $175. Navy Arms was importing the South American production of 32 Longs and Shorts RF ammo. I bought a few bricks of both longs and shorts and have continued to shoot them. I think the last brick will last me as long as I want to shoot the rimfires. Mostly, I take these guns to let family members and friends shoot. There is always a line!

Here are a few of my tip-ups, all shooters.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
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Gary,
Where did you locate .32 RF ammunition?
There is a French company which manufactures reloading kits for all kinds of obsolete ammunition, including .32 RF.

Here is where you can find them : Antique weapons realoding with black powder and accessories - H&C Collection
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:01 AM
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"I have over 500 rounds of 32RF and still shoot most of mine at least once every year."


The last box of .32 RF longs on Gun Broker was 48 rounds of older Remington in a poor box. Ammo looked clean enough to shoot. They sold for what was $4 for each round. I have about a box of good Canadian .32 RF Longs and a partial older box of .32 RF Long Shot rounds. I'm not going to shoot a whole lot of them at that price.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:43 AM
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Well . . . I look at how much they cost me to buy originally. The price was right, the ammo is good, and the amount of fun for family and friends (& me) shooting it up is incalculable!

I know that I can sell the ammo for a ridiculous price today, but I bought it to shoot, paid around $15 a box in the 90s. I have about a dozen boxes left and could easily sell them for well over $1000, but that is not why I bought the ammo in the first place.
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