Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Antiques

Notices

S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-11-2018, 02:00 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default 32-44 Target Revolver

Here is a 32-44 target revolver I own. It was my first large frame revolver purchase and didn't know very much about them at the time. It is refinished and has matching serial numbers on the frame, barrel, and the cylinder. There is no number on the latch. The serial number is 3xx. There is a 3 digit number under the left grip indicating it was sent back to the factory for work 1/17 (or maybe 11/7). It has 6 notches filed in the end of the barrel. Maybe it indicates the number of shooting matches won with the gun?

At the time I bought it it was listed as a 38-44. Thought is was a 38 until I took it to the gun smith and he said it was a 32. That was about 1 year after I bought it so there was nothing I could do. Sent away for the historical letter and it came back confirming it is a 32-44 that was sent to G.W. Beard & Son Co on January 21st, 1892.

Since working on my model of 91 project barrel in 32 caliber I started looking at the Model 3 revolver a little closer. Bought a 32-44 round and tried to chamber it in the New Model Number 3 but the entire 32-44 round slid right through the cylinder. Took out the caliper and measured the cylinder. They are all bored straight through to about .380, large enough to chamber a 38 special round. The end of the barrel measures about .318 which is correct for the 32-44 round.

Any thoughts on why the cylinder was bored out?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20180811_104738.jpg (246.7 KB, 365 views)
File Type: jpg 20180811_104723.jpg (188.2 KB, 232 views)
File Type: jpg 20180811_104706.jpg (239.5 KB, 258 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-11-2018, 02:47 PM
Speedo2 Speedo2 is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Phraudsylvania
Posts: 1,670
Likes: 837
Liked 1,237 Times in 449 Posts
Default

Perhaps somebody bored the cylinders in order to sleeve them for the more common 32-Long, then didn't follow-up with installing (shrinking-in) the sleeves?

I've never seen a 32-44 cartridge, but have assumed that the OD would have been around 0.360" rather than 0.380".

Another possible scenario would be that an earlier owner had some special insert-adaptors made (or was going to make) for using 32 S&W (or 32-Long) cartridges similar to those 22-Jet/22-LR inserts. I don't know, just a couple of wild guesses. -S2
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 08-11-2018, 02:48 PM
glowe's Avatar
glowe glowe is offline
US Veteran

32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 12,964
Likes: 3,047
Liked 14,343 Times in 5,470 Posts
Default

Too bad it was modified, but one can only guess at the intent of a previous owner. One option would be to sleeve the cylinder. You would also have to replace or re-manufacture the ejector star. At least one would be able to shoot the gun and it would be correct. It would be nice if you could pick up a new cylinder, but chanced of finding one in 32 caliber would be slim.

As for the cartridge, it should have been around .335" diameter and the length of the cylinder. The bullet should have been the same as the 32 Long and 32 S&W, .312" and sunk fully into the case.
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Last edited by glowe; 08-11-2018 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Added comment
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 08-11-2018, 03:31 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

Here are a few more pictures. I was incorrect in saying the 32-44 fell straight through the cylinder. You can see the 32-44 round in the cylinder and is shows the round is quite a bit smaller diameter. I thought the 32-44 was the same length as cylinder and the 38-44 too until I bought both rounds. The 32-44 is shown next the the 38-44 target round in two of the pictures. The ejector star has been modified to accept a larger round just like the cylinder has been modified. Also took a pic of the chamber lined up with the barrel. Wonder if the shooter had a special shell machined to fit the cylinder so he could reload them easier? The 32 long round uses a .312 diameter bullet while the 32-44 uses a .318 (about, i'm still learning) diameter bullet.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20180811_130944.jpg (84.5 KB, 222 views)
File Type: jpg 20180811_130716.jpg (146.2 KB, 214 views)
File Type: jpg 20180811_130657.jpg (88.5 KB, 231 views)
File Type: jpg 20180811_130430.jpg (45.9 KB, 232 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 08-11-2018, 05:09 PM
glowe's Avatar
glowe glowe is offline
US Veteran

32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 12,964
Likes: 3,047
Liked 14,343 Times in 5,470 Posts
Default

The 32-44 cartridge is not in Barne's book. I was assuming it used the same case as the 320 RR, but what I can find lists it as just under 1" in length, while the 38-44 was about 1 7/16" long as was the short cylinder NM3s. That last image seems to show drill marks, so no polishing had taken place?? What is the diameter of the charge holes?
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 08-11-2018, 05:34 PM
M E Morrison M E Morrison is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mercer County, PA, USA
Posts: 1,661
Likes: 19,302
Liked 1,781 Times in 897 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder350 View Post
Here is a 32-44 target revolver I own. It was my first large frame revolver purchase and didn't know very much about them at the time. It is refinished and has matching serial numbers on the frame, barrel, and the cylinder. There is no number on the latch. The serial number is 3xx. There is a 3 digit number under the left grip indicating it was sent back to the factory for work 1/17 (or maybe 11/7). It has 6 notches filed in the end of the barrel. Maybe it indicates the number of shooting matches won with the gun?

At the time I bought it it was listed as a 38-44. Thought is was a 38 until I took it to the gun smith and he said it was a 32. That was about 1 year after I bought it so there was nothing I could do. Sent away for the historical letter and it came back confirming it is a 32-44 that was sent to G.W. Beard & Son Co on January 21st, 1892.

Since working on my model of 91 project barrel in 32 caliber I started looking at the Model 3 revolver a little closer. Bought a 32-44 round and tried to chamber it in the New Model Number 3 but the entire 32-44 round slid right through the cylinder. Took out the caliper and measured the cylinder. They are all bored straight through to about .380, large enough to chamber a 38 special round. The end of the barrel measures about .318 which is correct for the 32-44 round.

Any thoughts on why the cylinder was bored out?


How does it compare to a 3-20?
__________________
Merle, retired
western PA
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 08-11-2018, 05:40 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,053
Likes: 918
Liked 9,936 Times in 3,652 Posts
Default

The several dimensions of the 32-44 cartridge are as follows:

Case diameter: .346"

Overall case length: .974"

Rim Thickness: .056"

Overall Length: 1.021" (Regular load---Gallery load has bullet seated deep within the case.)

Ralph Tremaine
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 08-11-2018, 05:50 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

If there was polishing it was not very good. There are lines going the length of all the chambers and lines going around the circumference of each chamber at different depths. I can't tell if the charge holes are nickel or raw steel.

I can't actually insert the 38 special round in all chambers. One accepts the round easily, some go in with a little force, while others won't accept the round. The charge holes/chambers are about .380".

Last edited by Boulder350; 08-11-2018 at 05:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 08-11-2018, 06:49 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

After reading Gary's and Ralph's post I did more searching on the internet to find out the difference between the 32-44 and 320 RR round. Most sources list the 32-44 cartridge dimensions the same as what Ralph posted. It looks like the 320 RR has the same dimensions as the 32-44, its just longer. It also looks like both cases can be formed from the 32-20 case, with a few adjustments that make is close to the original ones 32-44 and 320 RR.

Is the 32-44 chamber/cylinder bored straight through or does it have a step in it? Can't check mine since its been altered.

Mark
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:01 AM
glowe's Avatar
glowe glowe is offline
US Veteran

32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 12,964
Likes: 3,047
Liked 14,343 Times in 5,470 Posts
Default

I am confident that Ralph has this caliber in his collection and can comment on the chambers. He shared information with me, so I could reload the 38-44 Target.

The 320 was a straight walled case with a .317" bullet, around .320"-.322" case, and a .350 rim. Don't know if one can go from .338 base diameter of a 32 Winchester down to .32"?? I would think that it would be easier to reform a 32 H&R Mag case that is straight wall and .333". As for whether there is any step in the cylinder, I would only guess that a 32-44 would have the step to accommodate the increased brass case diameter and the front of the cylinder should be the diameter of the bullet in order for the bullet not to lose back pressure through the cylinder??
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:57 AM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default

The .32-44 is a TRUE .32 Caliber. Bullet molds I have are a .323". More modern .32 Longs are .311-.312"
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:49 AM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default

In reviewing this thread, you are extremely fortunate you had not dropped in a .38 Special cartridge (even a downloaded to a gallery charge) into the cylinder and fired it.

The confusion of the .38-44 New model 3 blackpowder round and the 1930s, .38-44 Heavy Duty, caused the demise of a least a few of the .38-44 New Model 3s and that is bad enough, however, to drop a .38 round with a .32 barrel ... that would have had a tragic result.

I'm curious to know if you have determined who refinished this revolvers. The finish appears to be professional from the extent of what I can see in the photos, so, it doesn't reason someone with this skill could make such a blunder.

Are you absolutely SURE, the serial numbers on the face of the cylinder, the rear recess of the barrel (visible with the clasp raised) all match exactly ?
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-12-2018, 12:07 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is online now
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,581
Likes: 4
Liked 2,515 Times in 1,306 Posts
Default

Gary is correct: "As for whether there is any step in the cylinder, I would only guess that a 32-44 would have the step to accommodate the increased brass case diameter and the front of the cylinder should be the diameter of the bullet...".
__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-12-2018, 12:40 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

Here are some pictures of the serial numbers. They look original to me. The numbers are clear and the rust pits are still there under the new nickel finish so the numbers were never removed and re-stamped.

Based on everyone's comments I'm starting to think this revolver was in the process of being converted to another cartridge, but the project was never finished.

The revolver did go back to the S&W factory for work in 1917. Maybe it was refinished then.

Thanks
Mark
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20180812_093209.jpg (71.8 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg 20180812_093109.jpg (62.5 KB, 90 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-12-2018, 01:25 PM
alanfir alanfir is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brookings, Or.
Posts: 81
Likes: 57
Liked 31 Times in 21 Posts
Default

I once owned a New Model #3 target serial # 33X that was refinished and converted to 38 special. The barrel was bored and sleeved to 38 special and the cylinder bored with a step to 38 special caliber. The numbers all matched and the latch was the early non-adjustable target type which someone appears to have replaced on your gun. I think you are correct that this is a conversion process that was not completed.

I believe the one I owned was originally a 32-44 target New Model #3.

Alanfir
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 08-12-2018, 02:34 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanfir View Post
I once owned a New Model #3 target serial # 33X that was refinished and converted to 38 special. The barrel was bored and sleeved to 38 special and the cylinder bored with a step to 38 special caliber. The numbers all matched and the latch was the early non-adjustable target type which someone appears to have replaced on your gun. I think you are correct that this is a conversion process that was not completed.

I believe the one I owned was originally a 32-44 target New Model #3.

Alanfir
i have one bored and sleeved to .22LR when it started life as either at 32-44 or .38-44 as best I can determine.
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-12-2018, 02:37 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder350 View Post
Here are some pictures of the serial numbers. They look original to me. The numbers are clear and the rust pits are still there under the new nickel finish so the numbers were never removed and re-stamped.

Based on everyone's comments I'm starting to think this revolver was in the process of being converted to another cartridge, but the project was never finished.

The revolver did go back to the S&W factory for work in 1917. Maybe it was refinished then.

Thanks
Mark
Yes, they all match. The most logical conclusion here is likely it was refinished for cosmetic purposes only, never intending it to be fired but rather "blocked and mounted".
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 08-12-2018, 02:41 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaher94087 View Post
Gary is correct: "As for whether there is any step in the cylinder, I would only guess that a 32-44 would have the step to accommodate the increased brass case diameter and the front of the cylinder should be the diameter of the bullet...".
Now you guys are going to make me go dig out a few .32-44s for comparison when today is one of those days when certain parts of my body haven't started to move fluidly yet.
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-12-2018, 02:50 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,053
Likes: 918
Liked 9,936 Times in 3,652 Posts
Default

Yes----there's a step in the 32-44 chambers.

I'm not really sure why there ever was a 32-44. That's mostly because I don't know diddly about the history surrounding it---and the 38-44 is A LOT more interesting---given the technological benefit it brought to the table.

Ralph Tremaine
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-12-2018, 04:47 PM
glowe's Avatar
glowe glowe is offline
US Veteran

32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 12,964
Likes: 3,047
Liked 14,343 Times in 5,470 Posts
Default

It appears there is not much information out there about this caliber. One source stated that ".32-44 S&W ammunition was originally made in 1877 (should be 1887) by UMC and was only chambered in the S&W New Model Number 3 revolver." I could only find one image of an original box and it is for sale, but if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it!

Another source states that the 32-44 Target, introduced in 1887, was specifically designed for target shooting in the Smith & Wesson New Model No.3 Target Revolver, alongside the .38-44. The .32-44 was associated with the well-known target shot F.E. Bennett, the .38-44 version with the Chevalier Ira Paine. The revolvers using the .32-44 cartridge had cylinders bored precisely to match the .321 inch diameter bullet, ensuring the bullet was fully supported and was not deformed as it passed from case to barrel. Both cartridges were capable of groups of c 1.5 inches at 50 yards, performance that has not been bettered since.

If the bullet is .320" or over, it might not work to use 32 H&R Mag cases and 32-20 might be the only way to go, but how one would reform any brass to fit the standard chamber of a 32-44 Target would be the challenge. I am sure that reloading dies are tough to find.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 32-44 Box.jpg (69.7 KB, 71 views)
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #21  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:17 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,053
Likes: 918
Liked 9,936 Times in 3,652 Posts
Default

Well, as near as I can tell with the bullet poking it's nose up in the way, the inside diameter of the case (and the outside diameter of the bullet) is .320-.321"---more like .320" when I have everything squared up as best I can.

Ralph Tremaine
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:20 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

Here is some interesting info on the cartridge and revolver. This info is from the "Broadfoot Publishing Company" reprint of "The Rifle" which was originally published by Mr. A. C. Gould. It is a review of the cartridge and revolver that was originally published in May of 1887. I also included the advertisement for the revolver from the same May of 1887 issue.

It appears two different cylinders were available for the revolver, at least at the time of the review. One cylinder accepted the cartridge that was just over 1" long. The other cylinder accepted the 320 RR cartridge which was bored straight through.

It also mentions info in the original target sights and the promise that the elevating rear target sight that would be available soon.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20180812_153347(1).jpg (150.7 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg 20180812_153421.jpg (132.1 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg 20180812_154127.jpg (139.6 KB, 104 views)
File Type: jpg 20180812_155309.jpg (170.3 KB, 109 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:17 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,053
Likes: 918
Liked 9,936 Times in 3,652 Posts
Default

Now THAT is interesting! I knew about the (non adjustable) early "target" sight, but for sure NOT about the option of the 320 RR set-up----and I just as for sure don't have one---damn it anyhow!!

Ralph Tremaine
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:27 PM
raljr1 raljr1 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast FL
Posts: 5,780
Likes: 7,438
Liked 15,134 Times in 3,616 Posts
Default

I would think you could sleeve the cylinders to accept the correct round or the 32 S&W. Someone good enough with a tig welder might be able to build the extractor up on the open half moon ends to be able to remachine it to extract cartridges. Or you could just sleeve it out to the face of the extractor and extract empties manually using a small dowel rod. At least you'd be able to shoot it at that point. It looks too nice to have been done to like that.
__________________
Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Last edited by raljr1; 08-13-2018 at 08:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #25  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:15 PM
mnrivrat mnrivrat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 225
Likes: 2
Liked 93 Times in 56 Posts
Default

I guess I will have to add my 2 cents worth here. No great feat of knowledge but an opinion.
No matter the reason the cylinder has been modified into something of no use other than display. My opinion as some others have already stated is that if it were my gun I would have the cylinder sleeved back to its original chambering and the extractor done as well. Not a job for anyone but a good qualified machinist/gunsmith , and rather costly but that is one very good looking revolver, and deserves to be put back as close to what it was when first manufactured.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:38 AM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

I have called a few people and can't find anyone who can sleeve the cylinder. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-30-2018, 01:33 PM
glowe's Avatar
glowe glowe is offline
US Veteran

32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 12,964
Likes: 3,047
Liked 14,343 Times in 5,470 Posts
Default

My guess is that most gunsmiths will not touch an antique gun, partly because they know nothing about them and do not want the liability. I, unfortunately do not have any leads for you, since the shops I am familiar with are now closed. Hang in there and someone will be along with leads.
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-30-2018, 01:50 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,053
Likes: 918
Liked 9,936 Times in 3,652 Posts
Default

Chris Hirsch specializes in antiques (ONLY). Whether or not he does sleeving remains to be seen---but it figures he'd know who does either way. The work he performed for me borders on magic!!

[email protected]

Ralph Tremaine
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-18-2021, 09:36 PM
Mbrgr1's Avatar
Mbrgr1 Mbrgr1 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Central Oklahoma
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 1,845
Liked 6,042 Times in 1,108 Posts
Default

What a weird cartridge! Stolen pics.





Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 05-21-2021, 08:17 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by model3sw View Post
The .32-44 is a TRUE .32 Caliber. Bullet molds I have are a .323". More modern .32 Longs are .311-.312"
I'll get my .32 - 44 dug out and check Cylinder Bores and Barrel's Groove-to-Groove...

Edited to add -

Okay, got it dug out and Cylinder Bores are a uniform .3215

I was not able to really get a Groove to Groove measure right now ( bad allergy day, ugh! ), but can try again later.

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 05-21-2021 at 09:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #31  
Old 05-21-2021, 08:45 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Casual extempore images comparing .32-44, .320 RR, and 38-44 Cartridges...the .32-44 happens to be a Gallery Round with a Ball set deep in the Case, and the other two are Target Rounds.

Some early Cartridges were not Head Stamped.

Hosted on Fotki


Hosted on Fotki


Hosted on Fotki

And, some loose .32 - 44s which are Head Stamped -

Hosted on Fotki

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 05-21-2021 at 08:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #32  
Old 05-22-2021, 12:45 AM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,053
Likes: 918
Liked 9,936 Times in 3,652 Posts
Default

Perhaps as an aside, because I thought it was common knowledge, the 38-44 S&W cartridge case (designed by Ira Paine) is the same length as the cylinder (of the earlier NM #3 Target revolvers of that caliber)---with the bullet seated entirely inside the case----which is to say the bullet leaves the case and immediately enters the rifled barrel---which is also to say there is no throat---which was a boon to the target shooters equipped with these guns----and a boon to the shooters of the custom hand ejector revolvers produced ever since-------those many of us have at least seen if not owned and used with custom barrels protruding back through the frame to meet with shortened cylinders.

The 32-44 S&W cartridge case is not and never was the same length as the cylinder-----does not and never will enjoy the same advantage as the 38-44 S&W cartridge, which makes me wonder why they bothered to make them in the first place.

That brings me to photographs of 38-44 gallery ammunition I've seen (round balls seated deep within a SHORTENED 38-44 cartridge case)----or perhaps a shortened 357 Maximum case if what I've seen were more modern items. It should require nothing more than being awake to realize these shortened 38-44 cases (whether shortened originals or more modern items) enjoy exactly none of the advantages of short throats.

Ralph Tremaine

Last edited by rct269; 05-22-2021 at 12:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-22-2021, 02:07 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,873
Likes: 1,800
Liked 4,546 Times in 1,669 Posts
Default Black powder loads

It’s interesting to note that from an early 1900’s UMC catalog you can see the Gallery load for the 38 special and the 38-44 is “ Identical “. Both Black powder, both identical bullet weight.

I would think that given the same barrel length the two would perform the same. “ Identically”. But that’s only a theory.

Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpg D6255D6C-EFE6-41DC-8CF0-9C520DC05928.jpg (22.4 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg 2B8E095D-97F8-4157-BB5C-D022F13B0E78.jpg (24.1 KB, 30 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #34  
Old 05-24-2021, 04:12 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
It’s interesting to note that from an early 1900’s UMC catalog you can see the Gallery load for the 38 special and the 38-44 is “ Identical “. Both Black powder, both identical bullet weight.

I would think that given the same barrel length the two would perform the same. “ Identically”. But that’s only a theory.

Murph
I am sure they would perform identically, out of a same length Barrel.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-24-2021, 04:26 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder350 View Post
Here is a 32-44 target revolver I own. It was my first large frame revolver purchase and didn't know very much about them at the time. It is refinished and has matching serial numbers on the frame, barrel, and the cylinder. There is no number on the latch. The serial number is 3xx. There is a 3 digit number under the left grip indicating it was sent back to the factory for work 1/17 (or maybe 11/7). It has 6 notches filed in the end of the barrel. Maybe it indicates the number of shooting matches won with the gun?

At the time I bought it it was listed as a 38-44. Thought is was a 38 until I took it to the gun smith and he said it was a 32. That was about 1 year after I bought it so there was nothing I could do. Sent away for the historical letter and it came back confirming it is a 32-44 that was sent to G.W. Beard & Son Co on January 21st, 1892.

Since working on my model of 91 project barrel in 32 caliber I started looking at the Model 3 revolver a little closer. Bought a 32-44 round and tried to chamber it in the New Model Number 3 but the entire 32-44 round slid right through the cylinder. Took out the caliper and measured the cylinder. They are all bored straight through to about .380, large enough to chamber a 38 special round. The end of the barrel measures about .318 which is correct for the 32-44 round.

Any thoughts on why the cylinder was bored out?

I am unable to imagine what the idea was for the Cylinder being bored-out the way it is.

It makes no sense to me.

There is nothing to sleeve it to, unless changing the Barrel Bore also.

Conversion to .320 'Revolving Rifle" Cartridges would have been easy and feasible, by merely continuing the Cylinder Chambers to be full length...but anything else would be a really big hassle, and also, why bother??

If back when - Twenty-Five Dollars worth of work, to convert an obsolete $7.00 Revolver, to some other Cartridge, when a good condition used Target Revolver in .38 Special, or as one please, could have been had for $10.00 or $12.00...I am just not seeing the logic...

It's a mystery!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 05-24-2021, 05:20 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

If it were me, I'd be very tempted to just do the following -


I'd figure to just use .32 - 20 Brass, and to expand it to oblige a .321 Bullet, and get the Cylinder sleeved and chambered to chamber that 'Wild Cat' Cartridge, and be very happy, since .32 - 20 Brass is plentiful and inexpensive, and expanding it out a little to accept a .321 Bullet is super easy to do...

Crimp die would have to be made, or adapted ( 8 mm Nambu Crimp die might work just fine) just as one has to do for the .32 - 44 anyway, so, other than for that, which is no big deal, the rest would be easy and elegant..!

And it'd be a dandy Round this way too!

Now I want one like this!!

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 05-24-2021 at 05:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 05-25-2021, 12:38 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,873
Likes: 1,800
Liked 4,546 Times in 1,669 Posts
Default Bonehead logic?

I can actually see someone doing this...Their thinking being that the 32-44 cartridge is impossible to find. Therefore the gun is worthless to them...So, why not bore it out to the most common cartridge out there at that time....The .38 Special? .323 to .358 is not a huge increase. That way you can shoot it.... Thinking that he'd worry about the barrel bore later.....So, he performs a sub-par boring of the chambers and like many projects? That's as far as this person got.

I think I've seen more altered cylinder chambers than any other part on Antique guns and always to alter to a more powerful cartridge. Or, a cartridge that is readily available at that time.....

Murph
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:55 AM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
I can actually see someone doing this...Their thinking being that the 32-44 cartridge is impossible to find. Therefore the gun is worthless to them...So, why not bore it out to the most common cartridge out there at that time....The .38 Special? .323 to .358 is not a huge increase. That way you can shoot it.... Thinking that he'd worry about the barrel bore later.....So, he performs a sub-par boring of the chambers and like many projects? That's as far as this person got.

I think I've seen more altered cylinder chambers than any other part on Antique guns and always to alter to a more powerful cartridge. Or, a cartridge that is readily available at that time.....

Murph
Yeahh, but...who-ever did the Cylinder bore effort did not even come close to chambering it for .38 Special, they bored straight through, and are way over-size for .38 S & W or for .38 Special, as well as failing to have a 'step' or Cylinder Chamber to Cylinder Bore transition ( leaving aside the Barrel Bore diameter problem ).

Granted, a naive and impetuous person can embark on a project with poor planning and worse understanding, to soon be in some kind of impasse and limbo, and that does happen sometimes...

.380 straight through just makes no sense at all other than maybe, as preparation for sleeves...but, sleeves for what conversion? Given the unique Barrel Bore diameter, nothing else Bullet wise other than .32-44 or .320 RR ( or eventually 8mm Nambu Bullet wise, sort of, ) would fit that Barrel.

As an aside - I have to suppose in theory, that one could have 'Special Ordered' a New Model 3 to be Chambered in .38 Special, at least from 1899 and on from there a ways, and I wonder if any exist?

We do know some ( or at least 1 ) New Model 3s exist in .38 Long Colt, so...might be possible.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-25-2021, 11:59 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,873
Likes: 1,800
Liked 4,546 Times in 1,669 Posts
Default Rough but close

Phil,
Actually it’s pretty close to case specs for the 38 Special/ 38 Long. See diagram. Granted no case stop would impact accuracy negatively but it would still be shootable vs not being able to obtain 32-44 cartridges in my opinion being the root cause for the attempted alteration.

Murph
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 621BEBFF-BFAC-4159-98B2-81BE2C55571B.jpg (24.1 KB, 12 views)
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:31 PM
cwneely cwneely is offline
US Veteran
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 28
Likes: 2
Liked 13 Times in 11 Posts
Default 32 44

Wouldn't that be the 320 rifle round? They were chambered for that and it is full cylinder length. You can make cases from 7.62 Nagant [pistol] brass. As I remember the bullet is .323.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-25-2021, 05:24 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwneely View Post
Wouldn't that be the 320 rifle round? They were chambered for that and it is full cylinder length. You can make cases from 7.62 Nagant [pistol] brass. As I remember the bullet is .323.
.320 RR is same diameter Brass as .32 - 44 - it is not .380 in diameter.

I posted images comparing .32 - 44, .320 RR, and .38 - 44 earlier in this thread, if you would like to see what the .320 RR Cartridge looks like...and to compare it to .32 - 44, the images are in Post #31.

Bored Straight Through Chambers of .380 diameter, do not co-respond to any kind of known Cartridge, and certainly none having a Bullet of .321 diameter.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-25-2021, 05:26 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder350 View Post
Here are a few more pictures. I was incorrect in saying the 32-44 fell straight through the cylinder. You can see the 32-44 round in the cylinder and is shows the round is quite a bit smaller diameter. I thought the 32-44 was the same length as cylinder and the 38-44 too until I bought both rounds. The 32-44 is shown next the the 38-44 target round in two of the pictures. The ejector star has been modified to accept a larger round just like the cylinder has been modified. Also took a pic of the chamber lined up with the barrel. Wonder if the shooter had a special shell machined to fit the cylinder so he could reload them easier? The 32 long round uses a .312 diameter bullet while the 32-44 uses a .318 (about, i'm still learning) diameter bullet.
Check your PMs, I sent you a message.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-26-2021, 11:31 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

Just out of curiosity, how much do you guys think this revolver is worth in its current condition?

Thanks
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-27-2021, 12:20 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,873
Likes: 1,800
Liked 4,546 Times in 1,669 Posts
Default Net worth?

It’s tough enough to evaluate antique guns in various conditions that are functional. This one I see as either parts or restoration.
Restoration would likely cost more than the gun is worth unless you are buddies with a machinist who is willing to take on the work and who also happens to be an excellent Tig welder? Lots of $$$$ to repair it.
Parts would actually be quite a bit if you broke it down piece by piece. Both would likely result in just about the same outcome money wise.

Murph
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-27-2021, 03:58 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
Member
32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 6
Liked 862 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder350 View Post
Just out of curiosity, how much do you guys think this revolver is worth in its current condition?

Thanks
Is this is a refinished Revolver, in addition to the modifications which were done to the Cylinder Chambers?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-27-2021, 04:49 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver 32-44 Target Revolver  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Out West
Posts: 529
Likes: 1,245
Liked 965 Times in 284 Posts
Default

It is refinished. Looks like it was done a long time ago
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Roper style add-on rear target sight adapter (to a non target sighted revolver) model3sw S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 5 11-23-2016 06:37 PM
The Best Target .38/.357 S&W revolver ? steady S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 36 05-23-2014 11:42 PM
My next target Revolver S&W357 S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 42 05-23-2014 09:07 AM
M&P Target Revolver DOB M67 S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 5 05-06-2008 10:51 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:26 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)