I recently acquired a S&W New Model Number Three that I would like more information about. Specifically, I would appreciate input regarding the stamps pictured, as well as the condition. Value estimations would also be welcome.
Some photos are below. I have the rest in an Imgur album that can be viewed here.
Thank you for your input! Again, lots more photos here!
Last edited by Dream to Dream; 08-31-2018 at 07:25 AM.
Well, without looking at the rest of the pictures, the star on the butt signifies a trip back to Springfield for repair/refinishing----and/or whatever. The 3.47 stamp on the grip frame tells us that happened during March of 1947. The serial number of the several components tells us they were fit to the frame during manufacture----and they're still with us. (That makes for a warm, fuzzy feeling among the lunatic fringe.) (As an aside, the barrel also carries the serial number (if)---and it will be found hidden away at the rear---inside the recess where the latch lives. It will be on the right hand side (or start there, and end on the left). Open the gun, hold the barrel/cylinder assembly in your left hand---holding the latch up with your left thumb---and BEHOLD! In the unlikely event you don't behold, the value of your revolver just dropped like a rock!!
Very nice nickel NM3 that appears at first glance to be original, but read on. With 17XXX serial number, ship date could have happened around 1886. The numbers appear to match, but there is one more between the ears of the top frame. Look beyond the latch and you should see numbers stamped on the rear of the frame on both sides of the latch. The star indicates a return to the factory.
The gun stamp 3 . 47 means it went to the factory in March 1947 for repair and maybe a refinish then as well. The P in the circle means the gun was plated.
Ralph - you have to stop copying me as I am hitting the keys as fast as I can!!!!!!
.... and I come in, in the "show" position behind Ralph and Gary.
Looks very nice. It was factory refinished in March 1947. The (*) in the serial number and the date stamped on the left grip frame of 3.47 verify that.
It looks sweet. Factory refinished / refurbished guns are becoming much more sought after in recent years than it years of past when they were frowned upon (from a collector's standpoint)
Sal are we sure the star means a refinish on this one ?
I've taken it to mean it was sent back for some repair, sometimes a refinish.
Not knowing these guns is the step in the cylinder normal ?
The step in the cylinder is normal---or not, depending on the caliber------of which there were A BUNCH!!--14-15 if memory serves. At first glance this one appears to be chambered for something that starts with a 4. Given my penchant to bet on pretty much sure things, I'll bet it's .44 Russian.
And no, we're not sure the star means refinish, but back to betting on sure things----I'll bet it was---never mind that what you've taken it to mean is absolutely correct.
Sal are we sure the star means a refinish on this one ?
I've taken it to mean it was sent back for some repair, sometimes a refinish.
Not knowing these guns is the step in the cylinder normal ?
Yes, it is almost a "given" that when it went back in for repairs it was refinished. I enlarged one of the pictures of the left side "flat" where the date is ... off in the far corner there is a "P" inside a circle which is not any S&W marking I ever saw on a NM3, so (think about this) has this gun been in a vacuum since 1947 ? This stray marking may be a 2nd refinish but of outstanding, professional, quality.
Either way, once it passes the muster of a physical inspection and it functions excellently, I'd buy it for a fair price.
I'm not great at spotting a refinish and one thing in particular may be throwing me off and that was the sharpness of the cylinder flutes.
Ok several other things too the condition of the stocks, the case colors and no marks/dings around the trigger guard.
When is it done by a Master ... most times you cannot tell if it has been refinished for certain.
The concern here is that most consider "refinish" as a less quality.
When I had my auto restoration shop, one of my "buy" lines was that my restorative repair and / or refinish work was undetectable.
There was Earl Sheib, then Maaco, then the corner garage, then the dealership, then there were restorationists (also in a variety of quality of work). When you get to cars that are worth big bucks ... (guns too) should never end up at an Earl Sheib refinisher but every day we see some that surly had been to a Earl Sheib-like gun refinisher.
This one has just about all the good qualities you would look for in a professional refinish.
I'm not great at spotting a (factory) refinish either, so I look at everything there is to look at. In this instance the bore says this revolver didn't live a pampered life---or even a proper life. Hence the good bet it's been refinished.
I'm not great at spotting a (factory) refinish either, so I look at everything there is to look at. In this instance the bore says this revolver didn't live a pampered life---or even a proper life. Hence the good bet it's been refinished.
Ralph Tremaine
I did exactly the same with a different take on it.
If not pampered some the stocks would be a mess same with the trigger guard area. My take was not cleaning after black powder loads.
I'm not great at spotting a (factory) refinish either, so I look at everything there is to look at. In this instance the bore says this revolver didn't live a pampered life---or even a proper life. Hence the good bet it's been refinished.
Ralph Tremaine
Look at the close up of the cylinder with the latch lifted ... the cylinder bores have positively been honed.
You can see the striations left by the stone or sandpaper wrapped around an oversized mop as those are the only 2 things I know of that leave marks like that, e.g. a brass brush (even if run through with a mandrel on a drill) wouldn't do that.
NOT that it's bad or terrible, it is just evidence that it has been aggressively cleaned inside the bores of the cylinder which is to be expected on a black powder gun and this guy is an early one, at that.
It is STILL a respectable piece to own or shoot (as refinished).
I am usually on the side of refinish when guns are presented here since there is always something that I see that does not look correct, but with the images presented by the OP I would say it was NOT refinished when returned in 1973. Important features to look at are the barrel stampings and the S&W logo stamp (if it has one). There are no pictures of those. The serial numbers look perfect without the slightest hint of blurring or thinning. The edges cannot be more crisp and the bluing/white metal in the extractor star also look perfect without any apparent wear.
One of the other positives here is that all the screws look virtually unturned. What could not have happened in 1974 was the re-stamping the top rib, since those roll dies were long gone by then. If refinished, one would likely see some evidence on the barrel rib. The small pin holding the front sight in place in perfectly done. Even the trigger spring pin is perfect along with a random"5" near it. I really like the fact that the return box is still with the gun and in perfect condition as well, indicating that the gun may not have been used after its return from the factory?? Looking under the ejector star, I see a perfectly done recess with all the original fitting and machining marks.
What it has going against original finish is that it is too good! I can forgive the chamber appearance as being an attempt by a repair shop employee to brighten up the chambers, or even a prior owner. I see specks of rust inside the butt-frame looking untouched by any refinish attempt, but cannot point to a single issue that makes it certain the gun has been re-plated. Please show me the light.
Couldn't resist a comparison 1st Model New Departure
Regardless if OP's New Model 3 has or has not been refinished, I wish I had seen that "nice looking" gun before I did a deal on the 1st year (1888) first Model in 32 Short shown below.
The OP's sideplate and screws look unmolested over the 125 + years, as well as the nickel bright and still shiny, the grips still black, numbers matching....compare to my numbers matching, but it sure quits there.
The only thing I can almost guarantee is that mine sure doesn't show any signs of refinish by factory, Earl S or Maaco I thought Earl went to jail somewhere in the late 50's early 60's but I still recall seeing Earl's $98 same day, baby blue repaint on a neighbors 1952 Dodge....looked pretty good from down the street....but open the doors, trunk or hood and see the original car color on the jambs, etc.
Just like I won't be bringing my 1st Model to any symposium, you don't exactly see (or want to) a Earl Scheib repaint at Pebble Beach Concours either!
I don't know about the screws being molested as they look real good to me. I have seen some really bad screw slots with pieces of metal missing. Don't really see that here. Remember, the gun was assembled and disassembled when built and then again disassembled and reassembled when it went back in 1974. The screw slots are certainly not virgin. What I did notice and it may only be camera angle was that it appears in photo 6 that the two screw slots on the left toward the cylinder appear to be wider than the rear screw slot. Other than that the gun appears very sweet and I for one would have NO problem adding that one to my collection.
Wow! I personally think you have a real beauty there. No matter what the factory did in 1947, that gun is sweet, good looks, appears to be mechanically intact, exactly what I was looking for when stumbling across the fair to poor condition one I found.
Have you found a way to ascertain the exact caliber yet? I see above posts that there were possibly 14 or 15 different calibers available on your model? If that is correct, and in absence of any roll stamps or markings, how can a collector know when seeing specimens that one might want to acquire?
I don't do any on-line purchases for that reason, and of course if in person one doesn't carry around rounds of different calibers to "try before buy" (that would for sure get me thrown out at most places).
I do not want to highjack your thread of your great find so I'll leave the question hanging as again...I'm no expert, or even novice when it comes to S & W antiques but I do like to learn.
As to your other question about value I probably cannot help much either other than to say my "cosmetically challenged" 1st year production 1st Model was a tad less than $100. If I had seen yours somewhere personally I would be in the $200 to $300 range just to add it to my collection but that value may be way off base to other more astute collectors like those posting above.
You are from Springfield MA? Just walk down the street and ask Roy!
The roll stamping on the rib looks very thin. All is legible, but shallow which indicates the rib was smoothed and some metal was lost in the process. I also see a slight rounding of the edges of the screw slots which can happen when buffing along with what looks like pitting on the sideplate surrounding the screws. The alignment marks on the right side frame and hinge pin look to have been buffed, losing metal and a little bit of the lines. The barrel condition is a sharp contrast to the exterior finish as we see it today. It was also mentioned above and if the original owner kept the exterior flawless, they totally neglected the bore, which is not reasonable.
Other than that, the gun is great, indicating there was at least one master refinisher still working at the repair department in 1974 (should be 1947), and did a stunning job. Too bad someone has used something abrasive to polish the surface.
The cost is minor compared to the value of the real answer on refinish, since original guns in this condition are approaching mid-thousands in value. Hope I'm wrong here for your sake, but am fairly confident you have a factory refinished revolver.
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Gary
SWCA 2515
Last edited by glowe; 08-31-2018 at 11:45 AM.
Reason: transposed numbers
Glowe
Re: p in a circle
Did the factory mark these like this when the gun was made?
or when returned for refinish?
None that I've ever seen, especially not back in 1947. Cannot swear to anything factory refinished or refurbished after 1970. I believe the factory only continued repairs for a very few more years on the old guns after 1970.
When the factory stopped repairing / refinishing the older guns, they directly recommended David Chicoine. That is how I first made David's acquaintance (by referral of S&W factory) almost 40 years ago.
Gary ... "this" is a prime example of the quality of work Dave Chicoine would perform. NOT saying positively nor possibly, but Dave was a "Master" at his craft. Now that Dave has long been out of it, and in the latter days his son tried to keep it going but failed (darking some of his prior glory and star status), people forget just how great of a Master Dave was. Oh, there is ONE other ... Charles Duffy (RIP). Also, Ford's did refurbish top breaks until a few years ago, too. Also, absolutely flawless work in every detail. All of the for mentioned replicating the exact factory details including screws, pins and S&W period Case Colors.
Ask ANYONE who is still alive that knew either Dave Chicoine, when he was at the top of his game, or, Charles Duffy right up to the day he passed on. Charles Duffy's standard refinish was the next master's "restoration", and, THAT is a fact !
Charles Duffy's work was so perfect that those who actually "used" Charles Duffy's honest and kind nature, would have antique S&W's refinished by him, then try to age them a bit to make them believable, presenting the for sale as "original". Charles would NEVER do any work to fool anyone. It is the people that "used" Charles' master work ... those who contracted Charles that then passed it off as original. He was "THAT" good !
I will say, without stating who nor how many, there was a member passed that used Charles Duffy for MANY Revolving Rifles to be repaired and / or refinished. Charles never stated he did "restorations" because he was just a 5 Star Master. His work was the best of old world craftsmanship, with his early 20th Century work-ethic, that anyone could ever find.
I could honestly say (and truly believe) for every 5 excellent shape Revolving Rifles you might find out there, 4 of the 5 were refinished by Charles Duffy then "aged" a tad (by the contractor NOT by Charles Duffy) to make it look believable that it was 125+ years old at the time it was being offered for sale. That member has passed and I will refuse to divulge who that was for respect of the dead ... who kept coaxing Charles to come out of retirement for "just one more", Charles agreeing to do it, mostly as a favor to a fellow member and old friend "in need" than for the money. I think Charles was still charging 1960s prices for his parts and gunsmithing work up till the day he passed.
There are, at least, 2 that I know for sure of Charles Duffy repaired 1st American U.S. Cavalry models that I, personally, know of. One sold at Rock Island about 3 or so years ago. It has sold years prior, too. I believe the last sale advertised it as "from the Charles Duffy Collection", if I recally correctly (without saying who Duffy was).
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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Last edited by model3sw; 08-31-2018 at 02:59 PM.
Reason: revised / amended
The factory did use the P in a circle and I have seen them on pre-war revolvers. My notes state P and circle mean a plated finish; can be nickel, silver or gold. I think it was used on a factory refinish, but can not confirm that. The latest factory return date I have on my list is 1983.
The factory did use the P in a circle and I have seen them on pre-war revolvers. My notes state P and circle mean a plated finish; can be nickel, silver or gold. I think it was used on a factory refinish, but can not confirm that. The latest factory return date I have on my list is 1983.
Gary, if you would like to research this further or need help on a joint project pertaining to known S&W Factory Refurbished guns, dates, marks etc. It's long overdue as a hot topic of research but we've discussed it prior.
I have no less than 3 factory refurbished Schofields, a 2nd American, a American transition, 1 or 2 Factory Refurbished NM3s (1 sureley a 2nd refinish) and few more dated from 1910s to 1950s if you need to see. It is my time that is limited to take a few days dismantling, good quality photos, reclean and repack etc.
The factory did use the P in a circle and I have seen them on pre-war revolvers. My notes state P and circle mean a plated finish; can be nickel, silver or gold. I think it was used on a factory refinish, but can not confirm that. The latest factory return date I have on my list is 1983.
Is that 1983 refinish date on an Antique and or any year top break S&W ?
I'm thinking S&W stopped doing the top breaks and other antiques much prior to 1983. I could be mistaken. If they continued that far to 1983, in all my years I have never seen one with newer than a 1973 stamp on it.
Seen many in the 1900s-1930s. MANY MANY more in the 1940s and 1950s. Much less than that in the 1960s and only one in 1973(ish).
I believe it was a K frame. What I have in my notes referring to the 1983 date is it is one I either have in my collection or witnessed because the entry is specific to July, 1983. Repair Date Stamps may have started in 1910 and were eliminated in mid-1983 (07.83)
As far as working on something like that, I would think it could benefit the Forum collectors and members, but until the Expert Commentaries come back online, I don't have much interest in doing another project.
I hope the OP posts more pictures as I did agree with Gary.
Now I'm unsure "again".
I looked at it in person today trying to remember the spots I thought were weak on the barrel stampings and couldn't find any.
I thought for sure I would.....My eyes aren't good anymore even with spectacles on.
I'd hold it and gradually turn it and all the numbers, amperstamps, everything looked good couldn't find the ones I thought were weak.
Hopefully you guys can tell if he does.
S&W New Model Number Three Questions
I thought Earl went to jail somewhere in the late 50's early 60's but I still recall seeing Earl's $98 same day, baby blue repaint on a neighbors 1952 Dodge....looked pretty good from down the street....but open the doors, trunk or hood and see the original car color on the jambs, etc.
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