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09-22-2018, 08:08 PM
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Letter of “Authenticity”?
Hello, I just purchased a S&W .32 cal s&w Bicycle Gun with a 2 inch barrel with patent markings on the side identifying it as such. The weapon has the original box with papers in English and Spanish. I’ve seen a few S&W weapons on Gun Broker that have some sort of letter from Smith and Wesson that’s notorized as to the weapons authenticity. Is there such a letter and if there is what is the process?
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09-22-2018, 08:23 PM
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Yes, there's such a letter. Process: Go the General Topics section of the forum where you will find an option for the Historical Foundation. That's where the letter comes from.
The content of the letter treats with the history of the model, and reflects the factory's records for the particular item---no Notary is involved.
Ralph Tremaine
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09-23-2018, 04:32 AM
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"The weapon has the original box with papers in English and Spanish."
That's interesting . I am not a collector but have a few old S&W guns but no old boxes. Was it normal for S&W to do both English AND Spanish on their paperwork back then ?
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09-23-2018, 08:52 AM
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Here is the link to order a Historical Foundation letter, which replaced the factory letter: http://smith-wessonforum.com/redirec...foundation.com . Both are/were signed by Roy Jinks, whose signature on a gun-related letter is worth more than any notary.
The letter will tell you when, to whom, and the barrel length, finish, etc. of the gun when shipped. A letter may be important to verify a rare barrel length such as a bicycle gun. However, in your case, if the serial number of the gun is on the bottom of the box and the barrel length on the end label, the letter is not needed for that purpose.
Bob
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09-23-2018, 09:41 AM
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Come on folks - WELCOME OUR NEW MEMBER TO THE FORUM - Duigiud !!!!!!!!!!
The "patent" box was introduced in 1920 and there were probably many 32 Safety 2" guns sold after that date. Maybe the OP can share the serial number? To match the box, it would have to be around 220,000 or above.
I am learning by observation that these guns are more common than once thought. They come up for sale regularly, letters all show different ship numbers depending on serial number range, from 50 to 150 in each letter. I am starting to believe that the total number produced may a thousand or even much higher.
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09-23-2018, 09:53 AM
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It may be important to note that a letter from Roy Jinks adds value to a rare gun, or one with an interesting shipping destination. However, the letter does not technically authenticate a gun--it only authenticates that a gun with a specific serial number shipped to a particular place on a particular date in a particular configuration.
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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208
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09-23-2018, 01:43 PM
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Duigiud, Welcome to the Forum! Comments above as to value of a factory letter are correct, however as noted for a 2 in Safety Hammerless model, if the box has the correct label and is numbered to the gun, authenticity is pretty well obvious and the letter will only add the gun's destination and ship date, which is usually in the case of this model, a distributor, not an individual. You didn't give the serial number of your gun, so I don't know which model of the .32s you have, but if it has the markings on the side of the barrel, chances are it is one of the later models as offered and shown in the later sales catalogs of the era. Early 1st model .32 Safety Hammerless models, with 2 in barrels, were not in the catalog as production gins, but were special ordered only and the die stamping of the patent dates was placed on the top rib of the barrel and ran back over the top strap. The die stamp used was the same as the die for the .32 DA revolvers, until a die stamp was made to fit the side of the barrels. The first .32 Safety Hammerless 2 inch barreled gun, a special order, was serial number 53252, shipped June 14, 1893. Ed.
Last edited by opoefc; 09-23-2018 at 01:55 PM.
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09-23-2018, 04:54 PM
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Like posted before, they are just cute and cuddly! That hurt to say.
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09-23-2018, 07:52 PM
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We need a picture of a 2" Bicycle gun for this post.
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H Richard
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09-24-2018, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duigiud
Hello, I just purchased a S&W .32 cal s&w Bicycle Gun with a 2 inch barrel with patent markings on the side identifying it as such. The weapon has the original box with papers in English and Spanish. I’ve seen a few S&W weapons on Gun Broker that have some sort of letter from Smith and Wesson that’s notorized as to the weapons authenticity. Is there such a letter and if there is what is the process?
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If you post pictures you will probably get a lot more info from the experts here.
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09-24-2018, 03:23 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I second the motion for pictures. I haven't drooled into my keyboard today.
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Guy
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09-24-2018, 06:03 PM
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Welcome to the forum .
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09-24-2018, 11:46 PM
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Welcome from the Philippines!
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09-25-2018, 10:45 PM
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Thanks Everyone
Hello everyone, and thanks for welcoming me to the group! I appreciate the information as well. I purchased the weapon on Gun Broker and haven’t received it yet. However, from looking at the pictures on GB the serial # is 115211. The GB item # is: 785441904 if anyone cares to take a look at it. I think the pics are still there even after an item is sold.
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09-25-2018, 10:57 PM
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P.S. To 09/22/18 Post
P.S.
Forgot to mention since so may respond about the “original” box that is included with the purchase of the weapon, the Gun Broker site pictures also show the box.
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09-25-2018, 11:08 PM
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Picture Comparison
Thanks “H Richard” for including a picture of a 2 inch bicycle S&W .32 on this thread. I’ve compared it with pics of my gun from GB and they are identical! However, I’ve noticed that on one picture of the end of the box where the barrel length is written looks like it’s been obscured with whiteout? Also another picture of the inside of the box clearly states “S&W .32 - Safety Hammerless, 3 Inch”, so I don’t know if this is indeed the original box for THIS gun.
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09-25-2018, 11:53 PM
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Question For “Glowe”
“Glowe”, you wrote that in order for the box and the gun to have matching serial numbers the gun must have a serial number above 220,000? Since I don’t have the gun yet, (in transit), I just have the pictures from Gun Broker to go by. Mine has serial #115211 and pictures of the box identify it as a box for a S&W 3 inch Hammerless. I’ve compared mine with a picture of a 2 inch bicycle S&W and confirmed that’s what I have. Was it common during the time my weapon was made to use different boxes to ship guns in? For S&W to mismatch guns with boxes? You can see pictures of both my gun and the box on GB item # 785441904.
Last edited by Duigiud; 09-25-2018 at 11:54 PM.
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09-26-2018, 08:48 AM
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Your gun would have shipped most likely in 1903. The first issued box with dual language was what was called the patent box because it had a patent date printed of Dec. 28, 1920. Later dual language boxes did not have the patent date. Bottom line is the box is not original to the gun. Last question is does your box have dual language printing or is it just the papers??
The most common box for these Safety revolvers was the 3", since so many 3" barrel length 32s were made. You still have a box that has value and a gun that has value as well, so no loss
Even if the box had been period correct. the factory would typically not put a gun in a mis-matched box. Is it possible? Maybe, but the label would at least be covered over with a proper label or at least written over. The factory, the distributor, and the buyer need to know what is in the box so mistakes did not happen.
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Last edited by glowe; 09-26-2018 at 08:50 AM.
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09-26-2018, 09:59 AM
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Box
I am no expert, but the box has definitely been Bubba'd by someone. The "Blue" & "3 Inch" have been scraped off of the label & "Nickel" poorly scribbled on it, would have been better to left it alone. It is still a box that is worth something until a better one come along to replace it with. The revolve is pretty decent for it's age, hope you enjoy it, & welcome to the Forum.
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09-26-2018, 10:36 AM
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Pictured here are three examples of what Smith & Wesson did to the end labels of boxes that needed to be changed. These are directly from Roy Jinks vault. I know, because I personally removed them two weeks ago. I think the end label on yours has been altered by someone outside the factory. It's just my opinion, I'm sure someone here will be along to dispute me.
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09-26-2018, 10:40 AM
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I have seen boxes that guns were shipped in and with an incorrect box with a piece of paper glued over the incorrect part (barrel length, finish, etc). When they came out with the plain box ends, and a descriptive label was attached it ended the alteration, but if they were out of a certain size box they would substitute the next size available.
I have a 24-3, 3" which shipped in a box that can accommodate a 6" gun.
I don't know just when S&W started with the blank labels and hand written info, Post WWII?
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H Richard
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09-26-2018, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard
I have seen boxes that guns were shipped in and with an incorrect box with a piece of paper glued over the incorrect part (barrel length, finish, etc). When they came out with the plain box ends, and a descriptive label was attached it ended the alteration, but if they were out of a certain size box they would substitute the next size available.
I have a 24-3, 3" which shipped in a box that can accommodate a 6" gun.
I don't know just when S&W started with the blank labels and hand written info, Post WWII?
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I also have a 24-3 3" that shipped in box for a 6" gun. If I'm not mistaken the larger box was used to accommodate the holsters that came with the 3" 24s. I have the holster that goes with the 24 and it will just barely fit in the box along with the revolver.
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09-26-2018, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ol777gunnerz
I am no expert, but the box has definitely been Bubba'd by someone. The "Blue" & "3 Inch" have been scraped off of the label & "Nickel" poorly scribbled on it, would have been better to left it alone. It is still a box that is worth something until a better one come along to replace it with. The revolve is pretty decent for it's age, hope you enjoy it, & welcome to the Forum.
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Yeah, it definitely was doodled with. Raised a red flag with me too. But I didn’t buy the box just the gun, the box came with it but was included as a selling point as the original.
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09-26-2018, 04:25 PM
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I guess I missed the images, but the end label is almost certainly on a 1920s burgundy box, like the first couple images posted below. Boxes from pre-1910 would look like box labels in the last three photos below.
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09-26-2018, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan
Pictured here are three examples of what Smith & Wesson did to the end labels of boxes that needed to be changed.
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I agree with Don that the factory occasionally re-labeled boxes, but from what I see they mostly had stamps like the 44 box Don shows. I find this done most often on less common variants. A 2" Bicycle gun would certainly qualify as a uncommon variant that the factory may or may not have always had on hand when an order came in. The problem with this box and gun is the box was made 20 years after the gun.
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Last edited by glowe; 09-26-2018 at 04:35 PM.
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09-29-2018, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
Your gun would have shipped most likely in 1903. The first issued box with dual language was what was called the patent box because it had a patent date printed of Dec. 28, 1920. Later dual language boxes did not have the patent date. Bottom line is the box is not original to the gun. Last question is does your box have dual language printing or is it just the papers??
The most common box for these Safety revolvers was the 3", since so many 3" barrel length 32s were made. You still have a box that has value and a gun that has value as well, so no loss
Even if the box had been period correct. the factory would typically not put a gun in a mis-matched box. Is it possible? Maybe, but the label would at least be covered over with a proper label or at least written over. The factory, the distributor, and the buyer need to know what is in the box so mistakes did not happen.
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You’re right, the box is exactly as you described. And there are no papers.
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09-29-2018, 01:55 AM
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New Safe Queen Arrived
Well everyone it came in today! The box has dual language printed on the inside cover in English and Spanish but no original papers. The inside box cover bears the inscription, “This container patented Dec 28, 1920”, printed on the bottom of the inside of the top cover. The weapon is in immaculate condition! It took me awhile to break it open it was soooo tight and stiff! There appears to be very small amounts of lubricant around the moving parts I suspect from the factory. The chambers, chamber face and breach face look pristine with no heat or smoke rings indicative of it being discharged. I really don’t think this has ever been fired. I’ll see if I can load some pictures this weekend. THANKS EVERYONE for your help and welcoming me to the forum!
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09-29-2018, 05:44 AM
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[I]Welcome to the forum and congratulations on winning the bid on a fine historic old revolver. Looking forward to seeing your pics
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09-29-2018, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
I guess I missed the images, but the end label is almost certainly on a 1920s burgundy box, like the first couple images posted below. Boxes from pre-1910 would look like box labels in the last three photos below.
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My box looks exactly like the first two.
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