I just acquired a Smith and Wesson New Model number 3 with a 6 inch barrel and the caliber is unknown for sure at this time. Serial Number 18,525. Would any one of the experts here know the approximate date of manufacture for this weapon? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. PS I'm a brand Newby here. Thanks again.Mike from Rochester, Minnesota

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! You are going to have to determine the caliber since all the different models began at SN 1. We can eliminate some because they didn't get up that high. Presuming it is .44 Russian, it likely shipped between 1883 and 1890. Also, you need to post some pictures so we can see if you have correctly identified it as a NM#3. Many folks mis-ID the Double Action models as NM#3.


Try inserting a .44 Special or .44 Mag into the cylinder. If it fits ok, we'll try to determine if it is .44-40 or .44 Russian, etc.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Thank you for the update. I haven't taken possession of the gun yet. I was the winning bidder on Gunbroker yesterday. It was GB number785503202. It should still be available for viewing. Please take a look and tell me what you think. I've ordered a letter of Authenticity from SW today. When it comes back, I'm going to order a Historical Research letter. The seller has absolutely no idea what the caliber might be. When I receive it, I'll get a handle on it. Thanks for the prompt response and any additional information would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Mike from Rochester, Minnesota

Nice ivories, congratulations! Looks like .44 Russian. .44-40 has a tapered rather than stepped cylinder. But, I'm no expert. Someone like model3sw will be along to give you the straight dope.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Thank you for taking the time to look. I forgot to mention that I was virtually certain it was SW New model Number 3. I'm still in the dark on the barrel length though. It looks to me like a 6 inch barrel but it maybe a 6 1/2. I'd say .44 Russian is a good guess on the caliber. I like those Ivories too. Anyway, I just sent off the money today so it will be a while before I can put my hands on it. Once again, Thank you for your help. Sincerely, Mike from Minnesota.

I checked in here at the request of Guy, Wiregrassguy, who asked me to take a look at this for you, Killer73.

I hate to be the one to tell you ... unless that ends up being a Revenue Cutter Service. State of Maryland (US) or other unique or extremely scarce issue revolver, you paid about $2000 too much. That's a well worn, beat, parts gun if I ever saw one. I cannot determine if the guy running you up the flagpole with the bids is legit or not. You determine. I'm suspicious.

If you've got any way out of it, tell the seller you made a mistake and pay his auction charges to get out of it as eloquently as possible.

Is this is ? ( it is OK to like past / sold auctions here, just not pending auctions )

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/785503202

Next time, check in with us BEFORE you plop down that kind of cash.

PS: It is (was) a New Model 3 at one time. I cannot tell the barrel length but looks shorter than 6" at a glance but may be, however, he does not include any photos of the top roll stamp on the barrel. It might just be a clipped barrel but cannot tell for sure by what I see.

Any barrel length other than 6 or 6.5" is unusual. 5" and 8" are highly coveted but ONLY in upper condition ranges. Keep your eye out for the Blue Book of Antique Gun Values, 2nd edition that will be out in 2019. I'm doing edits on the S&W section for the publisher to the end of this month. And, buy yourself a Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson 4th Issue / revision by Supica and Nahas. Can't go wrong there.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

IIRC (without pulling books out) too high SN for a 44/40 frontier. That stocks may be bone and kinda tired and stained, too.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Yikes, I was pretty proud of that New Model number 3. It's exactly a 6 inch barrel and I believe its in .44 Russian. What specifically is incorrect with this gun? You've got me nervous. Really Nervous.Thanks again for the help. Mike

Hmmm, What is a clipped Barrel? I know you are an expert but this gun looks original to me. The barrel is exactly 6 inches. The finish is brown but the screws are in good shape except for the side plate screw. The Gun is fully functional. My research indicates that this gun is in the ball park price wise. Can you give me an over view on this gun and tell me what is bad? I'd appreciate it. Yes the condition is fair but what is incorrect? I'm in need of your expertise.. Thank you Sincerely, Mike from Rochester, MN.

Frontier ended with a 2072 serial number. As a reference to your question on value, I can provide some information given by a couple of premier experts on Smith & Wesson. Nahas and Supica published their 4th Edition of the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 2016 and the book details all models and values.

Looking at the images, the gun is in Fair to Good Condition by standard evaluation criteria. There is literally no finish left and roughened metal over much of the gun. The value of a Good Condition NM3 is $1100 and the value listed in Fair Condition is $900. Not sure if you paid $2000 over value, but you can make the comparison with what you paid and what it's worth. In order for a gun from 1890 era to get a Good condition rating, 30% of the original finish must be left.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thank you for the reply. Those values that you quoted me are correct and of great assistance to me. Unless this Gun was shipped to Frank James in St. Joseph ,MO. I paid too much. It Looks like around $1400.00 too much at least. I'll work it out somehow or grow into it over the next 100 years. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Mike from Minnesota.

I can tell you that, based on historical values, this model has grown an average of 8.6% annually in value over the last 60 years. If the appreciation trend continues, it will double in value about every 10 years, so you are only looking at less than 20 year payback to profit.

I might add that if you are interested in continuing your adventures with Smith & Wesson, please purchase the book I mentioned above. Well worth the money and full of great reading. Every Model from the Model 1 up to today's current models, and everything in between.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary, the statistics you state I accept that you researched and did the math so I don't doubt you, however, for future values it will not continue. Only the upper grade antiques will maintain value, I feel.

There just aren't enough new collectors interested in the old guns anymore and the old collectors that appreciate them are dropping off in rapid succession.

I'll wager the NM3 the OP mentions is a shakey, loose, malfunctioning piece of iron, but, that is only my thoughts on it without examining it. Even if it were in excellent mechanical condition (which I strongly doubt), a $ 900 value (for what I see) is really pushing the envelope, I feel.

I sold one several months ago to a gent that needed one for parts. It showed much, MUCH, nice that this one and I felt guilty asking for $500 but it had $500 worth of parts on it, so, that's how I justified the value. Sal

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Average annual value growth is independent of value. I am giving the OP's gun a better shake than you, but without inspection, we just do not know what is what. If a working well used NM3 was to sell in 1953, it would probably have been worth $20. A high condition NM3, according to early collector's guides would have sold for $50.

What would that gun have been worth 30 years ago? Let's say $200, or still an 8% AAGR. Sure the dollars are not there, but those excellent examples selling for $5000 to $10,000 are dragging the values of Fair & Poor condition guns up along with them.

I remember buying well worn Model 2 tip-ups for $75 to $100 in the late 1970s. You cannot find that same condition Model 2 for under 300 to $350. today. My view is that as prices on most sought after models get beyond what many collectors can afford, the value of lesser condition specimens rise faster than those high grade guns while slowing for those high priced examples. Anyway, my assessment is that accumulators and new collectors will continue to compete for those Good to Poor condition guns to fill holes as I did when I started out, pushing the prices yet higher.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

As you stated, this is an AVERAGE annual growth rate. I would expect the median is significantly lower. The high condition guns are probably exceeding the average, possibly significantly. Because of this, some of the "average" condition guns will increase to some degree, but probably unlikely to be as much as the average. The poor condition firearms are not increasing in value much, if at all, and might be losing value. Due to the disinterest in this stuff by younger generations, lower condition stuff has little upside.

Quality will always sell. A high condition firearm will always appeal to the firearms enthusiast. It will also appeal to the investor, even one who might be anti 2A. Why do you think some major auction houses are taking out full page ads in the Wall Street Journal just before an auction?

Gary, Another consideration is the annual average inflation of 3.48% per year over this time frame:

$1,000.00 in 1953 had the same buying power as $9,233.11 in 2018

See: Calculate the value of $1 in 1953. How much was inflation of $1 in 1953?

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

what the heck does inflation have to do with gun value? Im going to use this philosophy in the stock/bond market. I will give Buffet a run for his money. I gots enough to move west of the Turnpike in Palm Beach.
Hello to all my new neighbors.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I did not want to depress the OP by including the negative changes in the value of the dollar over time. Nobody really wants to know that the buying power of one dollar from 1953 is now 11 cents.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Good Grief, cut the guy some slack.

Yeah, he paid too much, but no use rubbing it in.

For what it's worth, I paid $1500 for this one last year, which I thought was a fair price. Very little blue left, the bare metal has faded to a dark brown. 6 1/2" barrel, 44 Russian.



The New Model Number Three was available in 17 different chamberings, however 44 Russian was the most common. Measure the length of the cylinder. 44-40 and 38-40 will only fit into a cylinder 1 9/16" long. Most had cylinders 1 7/16" long.

By the way, from what I can see the chambers look really nice and clean with no pitting. I'm going to take a wild guess and say it is probably chambered for 44 Russian. And I see no evidence of the barrel being cut. Compare it to mine. Measure it again, from the front of the cylinder.

I see 50% blue with looking at that picture. Maybe it is the picture, but it is a heck of a lot better than “very little blue left”.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

If someone asks for a honest evaluation, adding a candy coating is being dishonest. Sometimes there's a slight upside to a bad deal, but in this instance of the OP's post ... I see none. Also, as a Licensed Auction House I have a fiduciary responsibility to appraise accurately. In addition, I have a moral and ethical duty and responsibility to my fellow man (and myself) to be forthright, even if the news is not pretty.

I advised him (the OP) to contact the seller to ask to get out of the purchase as eloquently as possible by paying the sellers fees, etc ... and by suggesting this, I got ripped a new one in emails and notes from subscribers to this forum.

It infuriates me when people are targeted as "pigeons" but in this instance I cannot say whether this was the case or not other than it seems the OP got lured into a bidding war in waters that were above his head.

Honoring your bids, even if you were suckered into a bidding war is one thing, a thing any gent has to abide by. However, being sold a false bill of goods is something different. In this instance I have no proof one way or the other.

The only irrefutable fact is ... that NM3 is a junker, NRA poor-fair at best.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Amen to that!

How do I state this emphatically? There is little to no upside to grey guns, guns with patina, guns without condition, etc & etc, unless extremely rare or extraordinary provenance. And how can there be? You are lucky if the under 40 set even wants to pick up a gun, and when they do, it is unusual that the interest is anything other than "black guns". Very few younger folks show interest in this stuff--walk around an antique firearms show and note all the grey hair!

There is absolutely no upside to the OPs NM#3. Little more than a parts gun, no potential for appreciation, cost to OP several times actual value.

Some folks don't want to hear the truth. And that's a shame! I have been particularly candid regarding some guns, especially on the Colt and Winchester forums, and the responses are amusing sometimes. I've been called extremely rude, was told that my knowledge base suggests I need to "get some", been reamed a new one in PMs and been recommended in a thread to the forum administrator Bert (Winchester forum) that I be permanently be banned from the forum! This all actually makes me SMILE. A mark of a job well done--some folks just don't want to hear the truth! Of course, I pointed out all my negative feedback--others were most gracious to hear the truth no matter how bad.

And one should be open to the truth no matter how bad. For example, over on the Colt forum, an individual is convinced his fake Colt Paterson is the real deal. I, and others, have pointed out the numerous deficiencies. He refuses to believe any of us. We suggest he take it to an expert for their opinion, and he reapeatedly refuses to do so.

Do you want to go through life thinking you have a diamond when you don't? Someday, if you decide to cash in and need the funds, and they simply are not there, you will surely be much more disappointed.

[QUOTE=Driftwood Johnson;140180369]Good Grief, cut the guy some slack.

Yeah, he paid too much, but no use rubbing it in

So you show him a nice one you bought for $1k less?

Hello Mr. Killer. Welcome and I see you are a new guy.
Did any of the members that posted on your entry, personally
examine your S&W?

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I think it's pie in the sky to say collectable firearms will go up every year, or go up a certain amount. In the last few years I've seen guns I thought I could never afford go for prices I could have afforded 10 years ago. High end guns and extremely valuable guns are off today, and have been dropping for several years now.
Collectable guns will return in value, and I still think they're a great investment. But there's simply no way to determine how much or if they'll go up each year.

Since we know the SN to be too high for the 44-40, there isn't a need to measure the cylinder. However, that is a clue for caliber when SN cannot disprove the chambering.

What does inflation have to do with gun values? Well its quite simple actually. If a gun goes up 5% a year in value, as an example, but inflation is 4% per year, as an example, then the gun actually only gained 1% in value because the dollar lost its own buying power. If the gun value increases don't beat inflation, then the net gain is basically zero for the investment.

Some people disregard the inflation but I disagree with that opinion. Most people who brush it off use it as a justification for over paying for a firearm in the moment, with the thought being that eventually it will be worth what they paid. Other times people brag about the increase in value of a particular firearm, without considering the decrease in buying power of their money, which results in the net aka white meat.

However, the real world market value equalling out to what was paid originally, will happen regardless of the sanctity of the firearm (assuming its righteous), because of the inflation. In other words, eventually, maybe after decades, or more in extreme cases, the gun will be worth (and then some, eventually) what one has paid, when one over pays at the beginning. This however does not actually qualify as a good investment, when compared to other options.

Also, FWIW, those grips on OP's NM3 are worth about $500 themselves, if ivory....if bone, much less.

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

I agree with you on everything except the Ivories (if Ivory) have to pretty sweet looking and nearly undamaged to reach the $500 mark but could go higher if perfect and how nice they were manufactured way back when.

When they'rs stained and ratty looking it's a matter of catch as catch can. If bone, worth seriously less, is true.

A nice old mellow aged (lightly yellowing) set of period Ivory stocks for a NM3 with mild age striations (but no cracks, chips, shrinkage, repairs or other damage, can bring a nice sum of money even higher than $500.00 but then you have to figure out if it's legal to transport interstate.

I saw and posted a video link about a year ago or less of an "ivory crush" that went on in Central Park NYC. The works of art being placed on the conveyor belt of the huge ivory pulverizer machine was enough to make you sick.

Here's one link. I cannot find the news video of the dealer that was set up and arrested for selling an item that only had ivory insets or ornamentation. It was not a solid ivory item.

See: About $8 Million of Elephant Ivory Destroyed in Central Park - The New York Times

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425