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Old 01-14-2019, 03:54 PM
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Default S&W no2 old army .32rf [update Factory Letter p.2 post #52]

Hi everybody,

Well, today I finally received my Smith & Wesson no2 SN 34XXX I won by an auction, I share the pics "out of the box".
It needs a very good cleaning and I'm a little confused because I can't "open" the barrel.

I searched on internet how to do, but when I watched the videos it seems to be very easy, but not with mine...the barrel latch doesn't move. Or maybe I don't really do the right think I don't know

Any help please ?

Thank you



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Old 01-14-2019, 04:13 PM
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I believe the latch moves up towards the hinge screw, then the barrel tips up.


If the latch does not move it may need to be soaked with some kind of penetrating oil.
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Old 01-14-2019, 04:21 PM
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Ok thank you, I think I have to try with some WD40
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:50 PM
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Try something that is labeled as a penetrating oil. I just do not have much faith in WD40 for much of anything. These tip-up revolvers take two fingers placed on either side of the latch and push up fully then tip up the barrel. Use penetrating oil on the top hinge as well, since that could be bound up. If you plan on any disassembly, I would take the stocks off and soak the gun in a mixture of ATF and Acetone for a few days either outside or in your garage. ATF works great at penetrating threads and acetone helps dissolve hardened greases and oils.

The gun appears to be in better shape than many and shows very sharp bottom edges of the rosewood stocks, indicating that it did not have a hard life. Hope all goes well with your cleanup project and post some after pictures.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:21 PM
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Thank you.

Well, I'm trying a penetrating super lubricant (not WD40) during all this night.
And if tomorrow it still stucks, I will try with the penetrating oil.

I don't know what is the ATF but my husband knows, and he told me we will disassembly together.

I'll keep you updated.

Maybe I will ask for a factory letter.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:26 PM
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Was given a very similar condition No. 2 this past year.
I took grips off and soaked it in kerosene for 2 days. Freed up everything and got rid of interior gunk.
Then a good cleaning involving use of Ballistol.
Have it in a shadow-box now and enjoy it there.

Good luck.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:29 PM
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I normally advise against WD-40 on firearms as it turns to varnish and can stick things together that dont need to be stuck.


However, the number 1 best thing for removing WD-40 is WD-40.


Not saying your gun has had WD-40 used on it in the past, but it is a very good possibility. Once you get it un stuck then go with a better grade gun oil


PS ATF is automatic transmission fluid
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 29aholic View Post
PS ATF is automatic transmission fluid
That's funny because I work in an autoshop ! So yes I know ATF oil but as regards to firearms I thought it was meaning a different thing
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:07 PM
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Kroil is another good penetrate. As you are doing, letting it soak in overnight should loosen up the latch.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:50 PM
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Hi guys !

So, today I decided to make my DIY penetrating oil with 50% ATF dexron II and 50% acetone.

« Come on baby, don’t be shy, let me see inside your barrel »
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:30 PM
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Some very light taps on the latch with a plastic , hammer head might help break it free. Remember - I said light taps , and NOT heavy whacks !

Some moderate heat can at times help. Like from a hair drier . Your best tool is patience. With the stocks removed soaking it an a penetrant for several days is not going to hurt anything.


As mentioned the latch has to move upward and evenly.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:40 PM
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Yeah, I tried to tap with a plastic hammer too.

All the screws were very easy to remove, only this latch still stucks.
I hope the mixture ATF/Acetone does loosen it up.

Has anyone already seen these marks ? (sorry for the bad quality, I did my best)
They are only on this side and not all over the lenght.
It seems to be a factory made...





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Old 01-16-2019, 06:43 PM
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Hi there,

Well, since yesterday evening the latch is soaked with the ATF/Acetone mixture and this evening I tried to tap on it with the plastic hammer.

Gradually I could see it moved. Then it was stuck in the open position, so I soaked it again and tried to move it up and down with my fingers. Slowly it started to move freely.

So thank you guys for the mixture ATF/Acetone trick.

I removed a lot of old dry grease again around the latch.
I wanted to remove the screw under the barrel and then remove the latch to clean it better, but the screw is really stucked...

I have a question about the action.
The gun has a bad timing. The chamber doesn't align correctly with the barrel.
Any help ?

Thank you

Here are some photos I took.





Chambers :



Before cleaning :





After cleaning :





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Old 01-16-2019, 07:20 PM
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"I have a question about the action.
The gun has a bad timing. The chamber doesn't align correctly with the barrel.
Any help ?" I can only say that the 'teeth' on the cylinder are worn, the hand (pawl) that rotates the cylinder is worn or the full cock notch on the hammer has been messed with (filed/sharpened). Will the cylinder lock (chambers align) when the hammer is pulled a little beyond full cock?
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Old 01-16-2019, 07:28 PM
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The cylinder doesn’t lock when the hammer is pulled beyond full cock with chamber aligned.

Sometimes, when I try to cock the hammer, I only can pull it until the cylinder stop releases and then it’s stuck and the hand seems to doesn’t work when it happens.

The teeth on the cylinder seem to be not so bad.

I haven’t removed the side plate yet.

Thanks for help.
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:53 AM
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Before you go tapping on the star, you need to know exactly what is happening with your Model 2. First determine what is not working correctly when the hammer is cocked?

Check the cylinder stop and see if it is fully dropping through the slot in the top of the frame? Debris, damage, broken spring, alignment/binding, can all affect how this part functions. Second, try to determine if each or any of the stop slots on the cylinder are working to properly lock the cylinder without assistance. Third, determine if the cylinder goes far enough to align with the slots or passes over them and goes too far?

To do this try the following. With your finger pushing down on the stop, cock the gun and let us know if any chambers lock into battery. Second, pull the hammer back fully and tell us how many of the stop locations need an extra turning of the cylinder to lock? Use a small punch the push the hand back into the recoil shield and see if is sticks or snaps back out into position? Lastly, push the cylinder forward and back and check to see how much it moves? If there is too much play in the cylinder, the hand can bind as it tries to push the cylinder into position.

With all that information, we will have a better idea of what needs to be done to get the gun cycling properly.
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Old 01-17-2019, 11:41 AM
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Keep soaking the whole gun, you might even go so far as to add a little synthetic motor oil to the mix.


As far as the marks you are asking about. That rod is effectively the ejector. To remove spent cartridges you slide the chamber of the cylinder over that rod (?) to push out the cases. It appears that the chambers may have been dirty and it took a little spinning back and forth to slide the chamber on/off the rod.
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Old 01-17-2019, 11:50 AM
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Check the end of the hand that revolves the cylinder too. If it is chipped or the tip broken off; the cylinder won't revolve for an instant and will re-lock and the action will bind up.
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Old 01-17-2019, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Smith View Post
The cylinder doesn’t lock when the hammer is pulled beyond full cock with chamber aligned.

Sometimes, when I try to cock the hammer, I only can pull it until the cylinder stop releases and then it’s stuck and the hand seems to doesn’t work when it happens.

The teeth on the cylinder seem to be not so bad.

I haven’t removed the side plate yet.

Thanks for help.
Probably gunked up inside as well.
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Old 01-17-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Check the cylinder stop and see if it is fully dropping through the slot in the top of the frame?
No problem with the cylinder stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Second, try to determine if each or any of the stop slots on the cylinder are working to properly lock the cylinder without assistance.
No problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Third, determine if the cylinder goes far enough to align with the slots or passes over them and goes too far?
The cylinder doesn’t go far enough to be locked when I fully cock the hammer.
If I Pull the hammer slightly, just enough to operate the cylinder stop (so the cylinder spins freely), the chambers are correctly aligned when I rotate the cylinder with fingers.

When the hammer is fully cocked, every chamber need an extra turning of the cylinder with fingers to lock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Use a small punch the push the hand back into the recoil shield and see if is sticks or snaps back out into position?
No problem, it returns to its position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Lastly, push the cylinder forward and back and check to see how much it moves?
Only a little endshake play, no more than my modern 67-6.

Thanks for help.
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Old 01-17-2019, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaher94087 View Post
Check the end of the hand that revolves the cylinder too. If it is chipped or the tip broken off; the cylinder won't revolve for an instant and will re-lock and the action will bind up.
I think you're right !
I removed the sideplate and the hand seems to be very worn or broken.
So I have to find a good photo of an original hand and to add some metal I guess.

For now, the mechanism is soaked in ATF/acetone mixture to dissolved all this old dry grease.



Cylinder teeth :


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Old 01-17-2019, 04:53 PM
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The fact that the cylinder consistently comes up short indicates either the star is worn or the hand is worn or damaged. The pictures of your cylinder looks very goo with no appreciable wear to the star, so the hand is likely the culprit. I have taken a couple of pictures ot a hand on one of my Model 2 revolvers. They are quite simple with a small angles ledge that engaged the star to rotate the cylinder. If damaged, it is most likely the problem. The solution might take the skills of a gunsmith or machinist, since you will either have to rebuild the damaged tip or have a replacement hand manufactured. Hope you have such people where you are located to do the work.
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Old 01-17-2019, 08:40 PM
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Lady Smith, The working end of the hand is missing. Find a good "micro-welder" who can lay a small bead of weld on the end of the hand. It will be necessary to file the end in the profile shown by Gary in photo #2. Be very careful when shortening the hand; try the fit and function often. As said when I worked as a carpenter "I cut it off TWICE and it's still too short!" Good luck,; and take your time. It isn't rocket science.

P.s., Nice fingernail polish.
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Old 01-17-2019, 11:16 PM
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I agree, the tip of the hand looks chipped. I also agree that you should keep on soaking. (and use toothbrush at times to help break up crud) That spot in the barrel looks to be a combination of rust pitting and lead build up. I would cork one end and pour in some bore cleaner then cork the other end. Leave it sit with the forward end of the barrel up. Pour solution off every couple days and run a brass brush through the bore. Then repeat the soaking. It may clean up quite a bit.

The marks on the ejector rod are damage. Not factory. Looks like you have a nice project gun going. Love the nail polish as well !
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:23 AM
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Well guys,

I asked 3 gunsmiths to repair or rebuild the hand.

The first said no, because the part is too thin and small...
The second said no too, because it could break again... (whereas he repaired a Remington 1858 hammer, Deringer frame etc... )
The third is ok to repair but asks 200$ to do it...

So, I asked on a french forum about collectibles firearms if someone can help.

If not, I guess I will have to do it myself even if I'm a little scared that the things get worse than they actually are.
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:55 AM
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Look for a micro-welding expert and not a gunsmith. They often advertise themselves as tool and die makers or machinists in the US. Many gunsmiths cannot weld anything and send their work out. You can fit the hand yourself, it is not difficult. Have someone build up the top of the hand and you can file to shape. Make sure to tell the welder the age of the part, so they know it is low carbon content steel. Take a picture of the hand before having it worked on and take several dimensions. Match the welded hand's proper shape with it longer than original to try. Keep taking off a very small amount of metal and try until you get the cylinder to lock up solid.
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:27 PM
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Hi guys,

I finally disassembled this Old Army. It wasn’t as hard as I thought, even if the hammer and the hand were difficult to remove, I didn’t damage nothing.

The action was soaked in the ATF/Acetone mixture during a few weeks but there’s always a lot of old dried grease and some rust especially around the hammer stud. There are some points of rust on the mainspring too but nothing to worry about.

A few weeks ago I started a new thread on a french forum about collectibles firearms to ask if someone knows where I can found someone who is able to repair or rebuild the hand.
An old guy who owns a no2 asked me to send him the hand, I think he wants to try to rebuild one for me for free because he said if he tries to repair and if then it doesn’t work, it will be over...




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Old 02-06-2019, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Smith View Post
Hi guys,

I finally disassembled this Old Army. It wasn’t as hard as I thought, even if the hammer and the hand were difficult to remove, I didn’t damage nothing.

The action was soaked in the ATF/Acetone mixture during a few weeks but there’s always a lot of old dried grease and some rust especially around the hammer stud. There are some points of rust on the mainspring too but nothing to worry about.

A few weeks ago I started a new thread on a french forum about collectibles firearms to ask if someone knows where I can found someone who is able to repair or rebuild the hand.
An old guy who owns a no2 asked me to send him the hand, I think he wants to try to rebuild one for me for free because he said if he tries to repair and if then it doesn’t work, it will be over...



Hopefully he'll be able to make it all right again.

Dale
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:12 AM
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I hope you have good luck with this project ,keep us posted .
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:19 PM
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Hi there,

Work in progress... the guy sent me this pic today

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Old 02-20-2019, 04:40 PM
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You are making good progress on this one. I hate to see these historic old guns not in good working order. Now if you could only buy a few boxes of ammo . . . ???

From looking at the photos you have supplied, I think your Model 2 is in much better condition than most out there for sale today. I like the case coloring left on the gun.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:12 PM
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Thank you.

The guy who makes a new hand for me is 82yo, I'm impressed by the work he's doing since it wasn't his job, but he likes helping people with their antique firearms.
The hammer on the pic is not mine but the hammer of his no2, he's using it to make adjustments.

I guess my no2 didn't fire a lot, but I think it was stored for a long time with loaded ammo.
I have to soak chambers in ATF/Acetone, I saw some rust inside them.
If the action works very well with this new hand, my next purchase will be :
Boutique

Wait and see...
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:04 PM
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Here is what I get when trying to open your link..

L'article demandé est indisponible, discontinué ou non publié.

(the requested article is unavailable, discontinued or not published.)
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:50 PM
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You’re right. I don’t understand it worked...
Well, I think this one could work but sorry it’s in French language.
http://www.hc-collection.com/Mobile/...ong-c2x2373516

It’s a handloading kit with tools, cases, primers and bullets.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:05 PM
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You have shown great determination and persistence in this project. I'm confident you will have a working gun as a result, and I want to see the finished product.

I still love your witty signature line.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:08 PM
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Ah, yes these are around in the US. Those lists seem to be kind of hit and miss options. Some have reported that they sometimes don't fire correctly. I have seen the French kits and the cost seems very high, but not many choices available.
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Old 02-22-2019, 04:52 PM
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Howdy !

Great news guys ! The hand is finished.
The guy sent me these pics. He tried the new hand on his Old Army and said it works very well.
He will send it to me on monday.
I can't wait...



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Old 02-22-2019, 06:35 PM
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What I hope is that he left it a little longer than needed, so you can file it until it locks your gun into battery at every chamber. It looks longer than your old one.
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:41 PM
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I will keep you updated. I think he used the hand of his own no2 to build it and not only mine, hopefully it will fit to my no2 without to do a lot of adjustments. Anyway it can’t be worse than it is actually.
I keep my fingers crossed.
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:59 PM
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I agree. Hopefully he left it a tad larger than need be for you or your local gunsmith to adjust for proper fit to your gun.

Good to hear it will be headed your way soon.

Dale
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:47 PM
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Please don't throw away your old, chipped hand. A micro-welder could add material to the tip and, with filing, render it useable. Very few people have the skill, knowledge or patience to make a hand as your friend has done. Great job!
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Old 02-23-2019, 07:02 AM
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At times you can find some useable .32RF ammo on Gun Broker. Some late production ammo was brought into the states by Navy Arms, and prior to that a Canadian firm. I have about a full box of the Canadian ammo and about 20 rounds of turn of the century Winchester shot shells for the .32 rf.

They are not cheap and I don't know if they can be exported. There is also a kit made to be able to load rounds. Cost is fairly high here as well.
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Old 02-23-2019, 07:10 AM
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Unfortunately it’s very difficult to import loaded ammo as regards to our country rules. Old ammo boxes are very hard to find there, to be honest I never found one.
Anyway I plan to purchase the handloading kit made by a French dealer.
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:22 PM
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Howdy guys !!!

I cleaned parts.







Trigger spring





Today I received the brand new hand.
The guy did a really amazing job ! It looks like a factory part !



Reassembly




Well... Firstly I was a little disappointed because sometimes the timing was perfect, sometimes not. I was thinking maybe the ratchet was worn.
But then, I noticed the timing is perfect when I’m cocking the hammer quickly and hard. The cylinder stop works perfectly as well.
I can’t thank this gentleman enough I guess



[img]



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Old 02-27-2019, 06:29 PM
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Way to stay on top of this one. It seems like your persistence and patience has paid off.

Nice display box as well.

Dale

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Old 03-03-2019, 02:41 AM
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"Well... Firstly I was a little disappointed because sometimes the timing was perfect, sometimes not. I was thinking maybe the ratchet was worn."

Well you would likely be thinking correctly. If the hand would have been left longer the hand and ratchet could have been carefully fit to achieve better change up. He did such a nice job on building the new hand that it is very unfortunate he forgot to leave the length longer to allow for fitting. You will need to have one of your hands tig welded longer and fit it in order to have proper change up on all cylinders. Or perhaps find another ratchet that may work better. Whatever you end up doing make sure the cylinder is in time and locked on the spot in order to fire the gun. So - a bit more work is required to get it all correct, but your heading in the right direction. Good Luck ( Buena Suerte )
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Old 03-03-2019, 02:47 AM
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Thanks.
Only 2 chambers ain’t perfect aligned so I think if the hand was longer, the timing would be bad with all the others.
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Smith View Post
Thanks.
Only 2 chambers ain’t perfect aligned so I think if the hand was longer, the timing would be bad with all the others.
LS,

It simply could be that the new hand is just barely long enough to engage half or more of the chambers but not quite long enough to engage all of them correctly...…...especially if/when combined with a worn cylinder ratchet.

There is some slight leeway with regards to fit/engagement when dealing with the cylinder stop and the cylinder stop cut-outs. Of course we are talking about very few thousandths of an inch, but the slight allowance is there.

Without him fitting the hand to your specific revolver I feel he did a pretty good job considering...….and if he had your gun when he made/fit the hand then he may have been able to get it just right. Then again, if the ratchet is overly worn on a few chambers then it may already be as good as it's ever going to be unless any other issues are addressed.

Just for giggles can you measure the thickness of the new hand near the top as well as your old hand near the top? I'm curious. By width I mean this area:

TT32
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:56 PM
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In fact, I don’t actually know what happens.
Half the time, the timing is perfect with all the 6 chambers and every now and then isn’t perfect with 2 chambers

Anyway, it is better than it was before and if I shoot it I will always check if the cylinder is locked.
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:00 AM
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"Only 2 chambers ain’t perfect aligned so I think if the hand was longer, the timing would be bad with all the others. "

That is true, and then what you would do is carefully dress down the ratchet slightly on those 4 cylinders to get your fit.

"Half the time, the timing is perfect with all the 6 chambers and every now and then isn’t perfect with 2 chambers"

That said there can be the issue of the hand having to much play in the frame slot. In such a case carefully peening only the outside of the slot or shimming the outside of the hand might help. Shimming can be done by soft soldering proper thickness shim stock to the hand, and trimming it to profile the hand. You want the hand to push on the ratchet as near center as possible.
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