According to SCS&W barrel lengths for the .38 Safety were 3-1/4",4",5" and 6" with some found with the scarce 2" (bicycle gun) length. A few, reportedly 15 or so, were made with 1.5". A couple known examples are in the 25xxxx serial range. While the .38 Safety Hammerless has a front sight forged with the barrel, a characteristic of the short barrel is a pined front sight. Additionally no caliber or address markings. The number on this example 259097 is found on the butt, cylinder, barrel and latch.

Cool gun! The barrel/cylinder assembly (I guess the “upper” in AR-15 speak) looks a lot different finish-wise than the frame. Matching numbers?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Now that is one sharp looking hammerless? Any chance we can expect a range report?

I agree with Alan do the numbers all match?
Just noticed the high serial number and Made In USA has to be one of the last ones made since SCSW list 242981 as being the approximate last serial number.

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Randy

C'mon guys, this isn't Playboy! You should read the post as well as look at the images. The numbers match and it's a 5th Model who's numbers went from 220000 to 261493.

Rick, nice little SH. When you post with kinda rare, have a Letter to back it up.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I stand corrected...never picked up a Playboy so can't comment on that. The frame finish is different than the barrel/cylinder or appears so to me. It is a rare gun if it is indeed a bicycle one, and not a cut down one...

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Randy

As Mike said, only a letter will tell.......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

It will letter. The gun is correct.

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Dave

Thanks Dave.

Please re-read what you post yourself, since it seems quite defensive sounding to me. Let's face it, any good gunsmith could shorten a barrel and pin a front sight, while removing the barrel address. The finish on the barrel assembly is obviously different than what is on the frame in both color and condition. As noted above, without a letter is is just well founded speculation.

There are three 1.5" guns in the SWCA database with serial numbers in the 257,XXX, 258,XXX, 260,XXX ranges, so your gun fits into the known manufacturing era, but 20,000 other guns made in this timeframe were factory original standard barrel length guns.

Get the letter and we all hope you got the real deal.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary, I had no intention of sounding defensive anymore than you intended to sound dismissive. I was trying to make a lighthearted response to Merl67 asking if the numbers match (which is in my original post) and his misquoting the SCS&W regarding the serial range of the 5th model. Yes, the barrel looks refinished relative to the frame but it is what it is. I understand and appreciate a healthy degree of skepticism when it comes to rare guns, I just thought you folks might like to see it.

Hello Rick, pls. be prudent with the usage of the term "rare" at this point of the mystery. At best it is a "potentially rare" gun, to the right collector.
Just wait and come back with a Letter. Lack of barrel roll marks and condition,kind of raises a brow. I hope it comes back as correct and wish you luck, cute little gun.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Mike, I rarely use the word "rare" I wouldn't have used it here unless I was absolutely, unequivocally certain. I wouldn't have shared images of the gun here (of all places) unless I was positive it shipped with a 1-1/2" barrel.

For what it's worth I own 10-12 Bicycle revolvers including 5 .38 S&W, one of which is a 1 1/2" one. What is interesting is that at least half of them letter to West Virginia. Maybe coal execs slipped them into their vest pockets.

No matter what, it is a beautiful example of when they sat down and hand fitted things. I'd love to experience breaking it open. My perfected third model 22 is in a league of its' own, or maybe this one's in it too. Nice job. Please tell once it letters sir.

The question I have is do you refinish the rest of the gun to match, or leave it as-is? While I respect old objects found in their original condition, what should you do with a collectible that is at best half-original?

Also, are the grips two different colors? The photo posted looks brown on one side; black on the other. Was it that both sides were originally black but the "brown-ish" side was face-up in a display case and exposed to light?

Rick, I hope it letters. It will be another little treasure that was made by true craftsmen. Best of luck. Mike

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

That is very cool, and I suddenly want one. Looking forward to the Letter.

In a world of Plastics and MIM, this just turns my crank !

The Brown on one side Black on the other side has been attributed to exposure to sunlight. In other words one side of the gun ( The Brown grip) saw more sunlight than the black grip.
If you look closely you can see appreciable wear to the brown grip below the grip screw? Worn flat? This can be caused by the gun residing in a desk drawer that is opened and closed often. Causing the gun to slide back and forth slightly. So it might have been a shop keeps gun( Store) or resided in an executive desk or perhaps a lawyers desk? Or a lady of the evenings night stand?
Nice gun!

A neat little gun.


I had a 38SH that was all original finish, but the two halves varied considerably in condition. It was a nickel gun. The frame was decent at above 90%. The upper half was horrible- maybe 40%, with much brown patina and blisters. NEITHER half was refinished.
My SPECULATION on how that happens: The gun was stored hidden in two different locations. It is a very simple disassembly. Just pull the pivot screw and push out the joint pivot.


They both look brown to me, but, yes, they do sometimes fade differently.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

This is a beautiful machine. What does she do in the /4 mile?

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"Don't Give Up the Ship"

Brilliant. Forrest, meet the trees.

I would say that goes beyond speculation all the way up to well founded hypothesis.

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Dave

Maybe the barrel/cylinder assembly parts made of a different grade of steel than the frame and side plates?
Steve W

Another recent acquisition. From Armslist, pictured with his .357 Model 13, for sale, but not mentioned. I replied and asked if that old Top-break was for sale! Only the grip side was visible. Nickel, 4th Model, all matching #'s. Only upper side plate screw is missing. One cylinder, of new PPU .38 S&W, fired. Perfect timing, etc. Bore was mint after a mild cleaning.

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Mike and others, here's the letter.

Congrats Rick, glad you got a letter that agrees with the gun.
Neat gun, great letter, and good snag. Again, congrats. best, Mike

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Very cool little gun. I agree with others that there is something different about the finish of the barrel and cylinder compared to the frame. What caused this would be pure speculation and above my pay grade. These stocks do change color over time and this has been seen numerous times. Sunlight exposure does weird things.

I once bought what I thought was a gold semi auto box. Thought that I had found something very rare. Turned out to be a nickle finish silver/grey box that had changed color in the sun.

Why bother?? If the gun is half or fully refinished it loses collector value to most purist "collectors". The gun will not shoot any better with a new paint job so why waste your money. If you are doing it because you don't like the current look and it doesn't bother you to have it refinished, then have at it. Your gun, your money.

Besides, every time someone refinishes a collectible or semi collectible gun, it just makes the rest of the original ones more valuable.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Cool gun and letter too. In the interim I took a remedial reading course and see the mention about matching numbers. Enjoy!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Very cool little piece, glad your letter worked out.
I once saw an absolutely beautiful super grade 1886 Winchester in 45-70 that looked like it had just left the factory. The owner said I could pick it up and examine it saying "look on the other side." When I turned it over it all of the vivid case hardening was silver/grey, the blue was faded as well as the stock. He said that it had been kept over a fireplace in a building with a skylight that let it get exposed to direct sunlight for decades. It was amazing and although a truly beautiful example of the type, probably washed at least 25-30% of its value off, even as mechanically pristine as it was.

Congratulations on your purchase and the letter.

I recently purchased a 2" .38 Safety Hammerless. It is interesting that our serial numbers are close but the ship dates are not. Mine is ser # 259382. Mr. Jinks gave the ship date on it as May 9, 1932, basically 2 years later.

Tim

Nice gun. The letter also points out that it is not uncommon two see differences in aging on differ parts of a firearm. As Lee pointed out, the pistol could be disassembled, perhaps for safety, and parts exposed to different storage conditions. Even in the same storage conditions differences in the carbon content and heat treating of the parts can result in different aging on the blue finish.

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Kind regards, Heinz

I do not see that in the letter......

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Another interesting note with this gun is the small S&W logo on the right side which seems to be correct for a 1930's gun.

Using my database for the .22/32 the small logo on the left was used from their inception in 1911 to around 1914 when it became a medium sized logo on the right. This continued until 1919 when the no logo guns appear. In 1921 I begin to see guns with a small logo on the right until around 1939 when it becomes a large logo on the right. Around 1952 it becomes a small logo on the left again.

This may mean nothing for different models and I merely point it out as an observation from my database.

The Made in USA stamping was ordered by H. Wesson in May of 1922.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I probably worded that poorly, Prior to the letter there was some concern about the difference in finish perhaps indicating reworked parts on the uppers. The letter confirms that the parts are very likely original. That infers the difference in finish can be attributed to natural causes.

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Kind regards, Heinz

I have 259630 that shipped in April, 1931.. .no rhyme or reason to serial numbers relative to ship dates...

Robert
SWCA #2906

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

This one (SN 251,XXX) left the factory July 20, 1923 on the way to Ellery Arms Co. in San Francisco.

Books

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I have a 5th Model with a 1 3/4" barrel. In the Jinks it says 5th Model 38, serial 233005 to MW Robinson July 7, 1913.

It adds,
it was as a single firearm shipment and no details listed except 38 Safety Hammerless.This is common on special orders and could indicate that the revolver was shipped as listed in your request.

Where did you get the letter from

The letters now come from the S&W Historical Foundation---see their section of this forum.

Ralph Tremaine

Here is the page to request a letter of authenticity; it is the first option of the two listed:

Letter Process - Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

The picture of your gun brought back fond memories of my Uncle who owned a barbershop in a small town in Ohio in the 1950's. He had a hammerless break open gun with a grip safety and he showed it to me as a boy. He carried that gun when he went to deposit his money in the bank each day.

Its been so long ago (1950's) I cannot remember who made the gun, it probably was not a Smith & Wesson but it could have been. I asked him why it had such a heavy trigger pull and he told me it was so that kids like me if they found it loaded could probably not pull the trigger and depress the grip safety at the same time.

I once owned a nickle plated Smith & Wesson M49 and regret bitterly that I sold it. It probably was during a temporally period of insanity I guess.

I did manage though to pick up another gun recently that I sold years ago, it was an H&R M999 break open in .22 L.R. I love those old break open revolvers no matter who made them, they are all fascinating to me.

Guys,
I had no idea that S&W even made some of the presented revolvers and shown barrel lengths…thanks a lot. And the resulting tension for part of the thread kept me fixated.
Bill

This is my only S&W top break. It’s been cut down. Has nice engraved pearls too. GWC, I believe it’s George Washington Carvers hideout.

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