Fraternal twins, a pair of Baby Russians! Delivered by the UPS stork yesterday. Aren't they cute & cuddly? Ex collection of Dr John W Hall.

The nickel one comes with the original spanner tool. Box stamped M W Robinson, Gen'l Agent, 79 Chambers St, NEW YORK. M W Robinson was Smith & Wesson's main distributor at the time this revolver shipped in 1876.

The blued one has a name and address on the underside of the box, appears to be Arlington, Mass. I think it says Thomas Carlow, 7 Morris St, Arlington, Mass?

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Congratulations! And yes, they are cute!

That the boxes survived so well is pretty amazing.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Congrats! Feed them properly!

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Come and take it!!

There is more than one Thomas Carlow in MA, but one of interest was Thomas H Carlow, born in Dennis MA in 1848 and married in Boston in 1891 to his second wife. Arlington is very close to North Boston. He was a Hotel Keeper at the time of his marriage. Buried in Brockton, MA.

Age, demographics seem to work for your revolver & box, plus he was a hotel keeper who could likely have had a pocket revolver handy in the late 1800s. Very nice set you have there.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thank you, glowe. Further analyzing the cursive writing, I think it's a Thomas A Carlow, however.

EDIT: Thomas A Carlow, as written on the box, and Thomas H Carlow might still be one and the same. To a census enumerator, A and H sound very similar. If written hastily in block fashion, an A could easily be confused as an H.

Very nice collectable set. I'm amazed by the Major Distributor stamped box. Very unique and rare. I've seen a Paper Distributor label on the outside of the box? but never on the inside and what appears to be Red ink? The location of the stamp couldn't be better in my opinion. Perfectly preserved!

I know I always go to far with this but what's very interesting is that the stamp almost looks like it was applied by the box maker? It doesn't look to me like it was stamped after the box was made. Just my opinion but the stamp is perfectly aligned. It would be hard also in my opinion to get a stamp in that tight location? and stamp it perfectly in line with the trim? Very interesting box!
*You will also note that the stamp is perfectly centered.

Murph

Murph,

It's in red ink. I assumed it was stamped at M W Robinson, but this would be tight to apply with a stamp, and that precise as well. Your comments are welcome and spot on. I never thought of that!

This is something I, too, had never seen before but you know is correct.

Oh for sure! No doubt! Everything that I'm seeing in the photo's in my opinion is spot on! I just think the stamp supports the position that the Distributor in this case M. K. Robinson was directly involved with boxing at least some of the guns received by the Company, "From the source". (The box maker)

The Distributor stamp most definitely increases the value of the box by a significant margin! I just find that stamp to be just a little too well done to suggest it was done by hand after receiving the box?

I guess what I'm really getting at is that the Major Distributor was a lot more involved than we might think with product preparation for sale. They may have actually played a very large part in boxing the products to be sold. That includes reloading tools. After all, that was their job? To sell the product.

I'd also like to say that in my opinion shipping these Baby Russians or even larger caliber revolvers "IN a cardboard box" from the company? would damage the box from the gun bouncing around. Even in paper. That would represent damaged merchandise in my opinion.
I've had wood cased guns shipped to my residence and requested from the seller to "PLEASE" don't ship the gun "IN The box" because it will blow through the box and damage it.
Sure enough, nobody listens, "Out comes the glue" and that's a wood box!
A cardboard box that is bouncing around on a rail car back in 1876 or in the back of a wagon? Come on now! What a mess that would be!

Murph

Pasteboard boxes were delivered to the factory by the vendors and S&W placed the revolvers in them prior to storing them or shipping. Distributors placed revolvers in wood cases. The one exception is the rarely found wood box (case) for the .32CF, Single Action that was made by S&W.

It's doubtful that the red ink stamp was applied at the box maker as that implies a logistics problem at S&W as to whom gets what product. As a retired printer, my opinion is that the stamp was applied by M.W. Robinson.

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Mike Maher #283

I don't know Mike,
All of the research that I have performed regarding the Major Distributor strongly suggests that they ran the show. They "Told" the Gunmakers what exact product that they wanted and how they wanted the product. I find no evidence that the Gunmaker told the Distributor "This is the way its gonna be take it or leave it".

I also find it very hard to believe that Smith & Wesson in Springfield would ship Baby Russians "IN The cardboard box" 142 miles by rail in 1876?

Absolutely every photo that I have seen of guns being shipped? Are in Wooden crates. I would like to know how you can ship a heavy pistol in a cardboard box in 1876 over 140 miles by early train and have ZERO damage? talk about bumpy?

The concept of shipping the Major Distributors empty cardboard boxes in New York City? Where a box maker I'm sure is right down the street? Maybe even next door?

Doesn't make much sense to me but you seem to be absolutely sure that's the way it was done. I wonder if you can please convey your researched sources? Since every other maker seems to have preferred a wooden crate over a cardboard box?

Thanks,
Murph

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After BMur posted his perceptions, it's difficult to believe that the M W Robinson markings were stamped. Too uniform, perfectly stamped, none of the indications that later was inked by a rubber stamp.

Ok so lets with and open mind?????

Lets look at the letters please??? Look at the font of the letters as compared to the font in the capital letters in the instruction sheet below the Distributor's address?

This is another method of physical evidence that is used in research? Die stamps! The die stamps in the capital letters of the Distributor stamp are "IDENTICAL" to the die stamps in the actual instructions!

That includes the capital S' in Smith and Wesson as compared to the Capital S in Robinson. Also look closely at the very unique capital N' in New York compared to the N in Wesson?.....That didn't just happen by accident. It's the same exact set of dies printed on the same printing press! Look at the very long bottom leg in the capital E' in New York? As compared to the Capital E' in Smith and Wesson? They are identical!! Same set of die stamps!

This box in my opinion was contracted by the same vendor that printed the instructions as well as the Distributor Stamp!

No two dies are the same when it comes to separate sources! Different gun makers used totally different dies for numbers and letters. FACT. Printers also used Different dies. A rubber stamp? NO WAY!!!

So, essentially what this visible evidence is telling us in my opinion is that it ties the Distributors label directly to the box and or the instruction sheet maker. Therefore the box was made specifically "FOR" this Distributor.

Murph

I agree that military orders were shipped in wood crates and some orders were shipped overseas in crates also. It is known that crates were used for the Schofield revolvers sent to the Springfield Armory as well as the Revolving Rifles sent to Australia.

In the manufacturing of revolvers at the factory, S&W produced them using a batch system; usually 100 - but not always. S&W produced and stored these until an order was received from a distributor. These were mostly standard configuration pieces pulled from the vault to fulfill an order. S&W follows this procedure to this day.

On few occasions, S&W would produce the revolver for a particular distributor usually because the distributor would spec non-standard features. Wolf & Klar and Phil Beckert are two examples.

The fact that the red M.W. Robinson markings appear to be printed is the luck of the draw. Whomever imprinted the address was sober that day. I'll refer you to the photo in N&J (1975 Revised) page 109 that shows that exact stamping in a Baby Russian box where the line runs downhill to the point that "New York." almost touches the line. For those with the 1966 edition, it's a clearer photo on page 105.

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Mike Maher #283

A printed document can be sloppy in nature sometimes, but it usually contains crisp letters, as my box markings are, even in red. If stamped later, there should be evidence of this. Some smearing after 143 years, or even at the time of imprint, one or more corners of the stamp making contact with the paper, etc.

Congrats Ian on the wonderful addition to your growing family!!

You find some nice stuff!!!

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

I honestly don't see how we can expect a print performed in 1876 to be perfect every time? Especially an additional line to an existing plate. The fact that the dies are Identical cannot be simply dismissed. I've seen so many stamps that are tilted or off line? I don't see the point.

Take a really good look (OPEN MIND) at the lower cased g' in the word Agent in the Distributor's stamp? Now look at the lower cased g' in Springfield at the bottom of the instruction sheet. NOT only are they absolutely identical? But they are extremely unique and odd! How the heck does one come across a rubber stamp with that little "Matching" odd g"?????

I don't have one in my die stamp record of that unique g'....Come on now...

Like my 6 year old niece says...…"Whatever"....

Murph

[/QUOTE]

More distributor stamping from another thread.

There was a Thomas A Carlow in Arlington, but he was born much later than the gun. Not to say he bought it used and put his name on the box. WWI Veteran.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Well, here's the opinion of a second retired printer...

The instructions are a separate sheet glued into the box top. So is the label on the front. That way they could use the box for anything and they could retain local control over the content by printing up what they needed as they needed it.

My guess is they bought their boxes from an established box maker and printed the sheets they affixed locally.

It would have been a relatively simple matter to take some pre-printed inside instruction sheets and run them back through the letter press to add the customer's name before they were applied. They probably used a local printer for both. I don't think they had enough volume to justify an in-house operation. If I was S&W's printer I'd do anything they wanted.

Rubber stamps aren't rubber anymore. They now use sections of newspaper plate which is a photopolymer. I did have the pleasure of using actual rubber stamp making machines in the 70's but by the 80's the photopolymer had replaced those.

I think the line of type in question is too long for a rubber stamp. Not that it's impossible to make a long one given a machine of ample size, but I've never seen nor heard of one that big. The limit on length is a practical one. After 4 inches lng or so they get difficult to mount and keep straight and don't give a good result.

Plus you'd still have to make a mold for the rubber stamp. It's way easier to block metal type in a chase and run it through the letterpress to add the company names. Plus as noted it's way too tight up in that corner.

So it doesn't look like a rubber stamp, too straight and uniform. It's too long for a rubber stamp given common equipment that I'm aware of. Given the printing equipment at the time vs rubber stamp equipment it would have been easier to print it on there.

It is common to this day to provide large customers with customized packaging. We did.

I agree with glenwolde. Local printer, S&W applied and hand set metal type; not a rubber stamp.

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Mike Maher #283

I honestly think this is a very interesting subject. In my opinion we agree that the inside instructions and the Distributor label on top, tucked into that tight area were both printed on the same type set.

So, I would like to go just a little bit further and discuss "where" the label was printed?

We know that Smith & Wesson was in Springfield and that M. Robinson was in New York. We also know that there is approximately 142 miles separating the two and that the most common method of shipping at that time (1876) was by train.

I still can't believe that Smith & Wesson would have shipped these revolvers in the cardboard box. I believe that they were securely shipped in wood crates!

I suppose it's possible that the boxes were included in the shipment? In a separate crate, carefully packed in perhaps paper wrap. Packing material back then was nothing less than pathetic as compared to todays material.

In my opinion the cardboard boxes that we all value today were just as delicate then as now. I also believe that the company and distributor saw them as "valuable" product not to be treated without care or to be damaged!

The boxes in my mind represent part of the final sales product. In 1876 I'm seeing the Baby Russians being put "IN the box" by the Distributor at the products final destination for sale on the shelfs. Anytime earlier? would damage the boxes!

We also have to come up with a reason if the boxes were actually provided by Smith & Wesson? Why would they have the typeset include the Distributor's label? In Red? or black like another member kindly provided a photo of? It's a hard sell in my opinion that the boxes were shipped to the Distributor with the distributor label on them.

We also have to account for the tools inside? To say that Smith & Wesson shipped empty unmarked boxes to M. Robinson? Anything is possible but it honestly doesn't make sense to me. The year 1876 was a totally different Era. Production was in it's infancy and shipping items without damaging them? Very difficult. I'd say even empty cardboard boxes. It just makes more sense to me that the boxes were actually made in New York and the guns put into them by the Distributor.

What would blow my theory out of the water is if we can find a box with a different Distributor's name on it!!! That would support that the boxes were shipped by Smith & Wesson???? Anybody have one??

I have several Major Distributor catalogs from the 1880's that are advertising Smith & Wesson revolvers for sale throughout the country. Did those Distributors make there own boxes also? I don't know. It seems to me that there is only one type of box for the Baby Russian but I don't know.

I can say this though. Other Distributors most definitely sold various pistols from several gun makers "IN the box" and those boxes I suspect were made at that location by the Distributor via contract. Were they made and shipped across the country in the 1870's, 1880's and 1890's by Hopkins & Allen, Forehand & Wadsworth, H&R, Bacon, etc?? I don't know? but that's a very long way to ship a box at that time without damaging it! Coast to Coast? on a train? It's hard to imagine a Train ride back then. I'm sure it was awful! but a lot better than a wagon I suppose.
I have a few of the off brand boxes in my collection and they seem to have a similar pattern to the S&W boxes. I suppose it really doesn't matter who made the box. The value is rock solid in my opinion no matter who made the box. I think we just have to realize that product preparation was totally different back then. Damage from shipping was all too common. It still is 150 years later!

That's why Final Product preparation at that time was performed "At the Distributor house". I can visualize it. They pick up the crate at the Rail Station in a wagon no less, they bring the crate back to the Distributor house, open it, and move the product to storage or place them in a custom made box for sale on the shelves? I think we also have to realize that not all guns were sold in the box. I don't think the Baltimore Police Department was interested in cardboard boxes?


Murph

Murph,

Fascinating subject, isn't it?

I would think the ease of printing and assembling boxes at M W Robinson, this also being a much larger city, would make more sense than shipping from Springfield to New York. Arriving in wooden crates would be the revolvers themselves.

Of course, a lot can happen in over 140 years, but one box having the M W Robinson printed on it and the other not strongly suggests the other box was not through M W Robinson. Maybe all instructions and labels were printed for attachment to boxes assembled elsewhere. BUT, the two boxes, one with the M W Robinson printing, and the other without, are so identical they must have originated at the same location??? The one without M W Robinson imprint has the name and location of Arlington, Mass on it. Again, a lot can happen over 142 years, but it's possible that revolver went from Springfield to Arlington, bypassing New York completely.

Also, where were the spanner tools manufactured?

So, I raised more questions than I answered!

Also, the other gun a poster presented is owned by Driftwood Johnson. His box has a cardboard divider. Did some boxes have them and others not, or were mine discarded, or was the divider created after market by the consumer.

Lastly, I could letter these guns, except it's unknown if Dr Hall purchased these with original boxes or if it was a later matching, and also since he owned both revolvers and boxes, if each revolver ended up in the other box inadvertently over the years.

Ian,
Yes it is a great subject. Collectors appreciate details. Just as long as it doesn't hurt the market! I don't think this subject impacts value at all. The boxes are worth a ton and they always will be.
I just think we need to attempt to use our minds eye to try to see just how rough traveling and shipping was then. It was just plain awful! as compared to today's standards.

Shipping products in 1876 was a coin toss. I honestly think that's why the Major Distributor was so independent of product needs. They could do it all back then. Today it's totally different. Products are shipped in peanut and form fit Styrofoam and the boxes are still damaged! but the product generally arrives intact for the most part.

It's very hard for me also to envision the Company shipping cardboard boxes to New York especially. As far as product variances? One box with partitions and one without? I have no idea. We might just be touching on different Box makers or different Distributors? But that doesn't explain the instruction label.

Considering that Smith & Wesson revolvers were sold throughout the country? If the Distributors were making there own boxes, shouldn't we see different boxes? I would think so but these surviving boxes are pretty darn rare.



Murph

Smith & Wesson contracted for the pasteboard boxes. The label printing may have been done locally as glenwold said. I have reservations about the dealer name being applied at this time unless the order was for a substancial quantity. The distributors didn't necessarily order large quantities but would order smaller amounts like one or five or 10 at one time.


During manufacture, all department operations were recorded by serial number as the workers were paid by the piece. This was done for inventory control and payroll purposes. The serial number of the revolver was written on the box bottom usually in soft pencil when the finished product was placed in the box and moved to the vault. When shipped, the serial number was noted in the shipping records book. The distributor didn't care about the serial number and there were no laws that required that information in 1875.

Check the box bottom for the serial number. It is usually found close to the end. A strong light and a magnifying glass helps. As for the divider; they all started with a divider. However, many were removed or the glue failed and the divider was thrown out.

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Mike Maher #283

Just a quick follow up? I am in my shop today cuz the weather cleared up briefly.

I'm looking through my Distributor Catalog collection and what seems amazing to me is that literally "Every" Distributor catalog lists the Smith & Wesson Baby Russian or SA model 2 for sale! Most of the Distributors are in New York, Boston, Philadelphia, and along the Eastern Seaboard. However, I also have some in the Midwest and in San Francisco and they list the Baby Russian as well.

Some date to 1876! One is earlier in 1875 and lists the various tip-ups. So to think that M. Robinson was the primary sales Distributor? I think is a mistake. Or perhaps They shipped guns to "ALL" these other Distributors? That's hard to believe but I suppose it's possible?

In my opinion this information supports that the Green labeled boxes were manufactured on contract by M. Robinson only. Otherwise we should see at least a few of the various Distributor labels on these boxes. Other distributors may have just made plain boxes that are not marked? Who knows? but with this huge volume of Distributors selling the Baby Russians? We should see a lot of different marked boxes out there.

Here is a short list of Distributors that I looked through. I have several more but I know what I will find in those as well. They were all selling the Baby Russian or the later model 2 SA. this is only because I don't have an earlier copy of their catalog!

J.A.Rosa 1876 (Boston Mass)(Clearly selling the Baby Russian)
Henry Squires 1876 (New York)
Turner & Ross 1878, 1883 (Boston Mass.)
Hodgkins & Haigh 1883 ( New York)
Hartley & Graham 1885( New York)
Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co 1884 (Chicago)
Jos.C.Grubb & Co. 1883 (Philadelphia)
Schoverling, Daly & Gales 1892 (New York)
Great Western Gun Works 1882 ( Pittsburg, Penn)
Homer Fisher 1880 (New York)
P.Powell & Son 1875(Cincinnati, ohio)
Curry & Bro San Francisco, Ca. 1884
John P. Lovell Arms Co. 1887 (Boston Mass)
ETC.

Murph

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Well,
The serial number in pencil is a great point. I've looked at some of my boxes and there is some evidence of some numbers there. Some actually have NO evidence of numbers and it doesn't look like there were ever numbers there.
I also have boxed guns in Iver Johnson, F&W, and they also have serial numbers in pencil written under the box.
I also have Wood distributor boxes? Cased guns if you will? And some of them have writing and numbers underneath them as well! Would the Distributor mark serial numbers under wood cases? I have no idea but they look legit to me. They are in cursive font and look very much like early period writing that was taught in schools of that era.

I also have a Tippen and Lawden wood cased pepperbox with very clear matching serial numbers written in pencil on the bottom of the wood box. Why? I have no idea but that wasn't done at the factory. Not on a confirmed cased Distributor wood box that's for sure. So I don’t know why/who numbered them


Murph

Points to ponder:
There were only 25,548 made from 1876-7. Divide that by the 13 distributors ("etc.") mentioned above from 1876 to 1892 ("Schoverling, Daly & Gales 1892 (New York)".
Of those that were shipped to M.W. Robinson, and all the other distributors, why would they individually bother to have boxes made, imprinted with their name and where would they procure the box top labels and "Instructions For Use" that are uniform across the production of this revolver? I maintain that the boxes were subcontracted from S&W, labeled (finished) at S&W and shipped in the box.

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Mike Maher #283

Mike I think you’re missing my point.
I’m saying “Only” M.Robinson boxed them in the green box. Other Distributors sold them proof positive but we do not see ANY Green boxes with other Distributor labels on them! NOT ONE! That’s my point! Shouldn’t we???

I’ve seen H&R boxes with Lovell Distributor stamps on them and Hartley & Graham stamps on Colt Lightning and rare Newline boxes. Their direct association with those Company’s mentioned is definite.

Most, not all, but most boxes that I believe were made by Distributors have no instructions. Just a basic label or in fact no label whatsoever! Often when you rarely find those boxes? It’s only because they have just barely enough Paper label left on them to identify them as an original cardboard gun box. If that small paper label is gone? The box is no longer identifiable as an original cardboard gun box. And most of those In my opinion would have been tossed by the customer.

But M.Robinson was much different! They were directly associated with Smith & Wesson by shear volume alone. In fact when we look at M. Robinson’s catalog? They are the singular Distributor that has an exact matching tool advertisement as is found in the Smith & Wesson catalog! No other Distributor that sold the reloading tools has that matching advertisement in all my catalogs. Several Distributors sold them but the ad was Very basic.
So I am suggesting that the green boxes originated at M. Robinson. I’d have to look through my factory letters but the vast majority in my collection were sent to M. Robinson. I have several letters and some of my collectibles were part of a VERY LARGE shipment! So that Distributor received a huge amount of Guns from the factory! One of my CF 1 1/2’s was shipped in 1878 as part of I believe a 500 gun shipment!

*** Note! If you look closely in one of the pictures I posted of Distributor catalogs?? You will notice that Charles Folsom, also a large Distributor in New York? Was right down the street from M.Robinson on Chambers Street. You probably could have thrown a football from window to window! They also sold the Baby Russian. Yet we see no labels or green boxes marked with that Distributor name!

Murph

Here are a couple examples of what I believe to be General Distributor Made boxes. In other words they were not the primary Distributor that the Company relied on to sell their product. They may have purchased the guns from the Primary Distributor? But they had these boxes made to sell the product in after receiving the guns in a wooden crate.

Very basic boxes with a very basic label and no instructions. I’ve seen many of these boxes with several different makes of guns. If we Take that little paper label off the box you would never know what was in there originally.

Another member recently posted a box marked “Columbian Arms Co”? That box was also basic and had no instructions! Columbian Arms Co was a trade name used by a Major Distributor in Tennessee! But the gun was actually manufactured on contract with The Norwich Pistol Company. Proof positive that Distributors made boxes via a local vendor!

Murph

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Smith & Wesson had a Springfield-based box manufacturer for many years; exactly how many, I don't know ... but certainly through the 1860's. The limited evidence I've seen is that the guns were shipped in the boxes to Storrs during this time.

Boxes are easier to stack and package in crates than individual guns are ... and while it's nice to imagine that the commercial guns were being shipped in wood crates, it's impractical to imagine that the crates were then shipped back to S&W. Given the demand for guns during this time, I doubt that S&W was worried about the guns getting a bit of shelf wear during transit.

As for the labels: there were several major printers in Springfield, including Milton Bradley (of board game fame) and several of the people involved in the manufacture of very early cartridge ammunition (one was a type caster), so it's possible that there were different labels being printed for different distributors. Or, the labels could have been printed in New York. Or, the factory may have provided the "stock" labels and some distributors may have pasted over with their own labels. Or any number of other possibilities. I haven't done any research on the box labels not have I come across any prima facie evidence, so that remains an outstanding question, and I'm not sure that the labels alone will guide us much here (but I'm open to ideas).

The few promotional materials that I have from Smith & Wesson in the 1860's are all high quality printings ... but I can't say for certainty whether they were contracted by Storrs or S&W. My guess is that they were done by someone that Storrs contracted, since he was likely interfacing with the consumers of that material more than the company was. But, there are no "proofs" in the history business and I prefer not to inject too much opinion, lest we start arranging the bits and pieces to fit our opinions instead of letting them tell their own story.

And yes, I know that I'm talking about the 1860's, and that the Baby Russians shipped in 1876-77. Things may or may not have changed in the intervening time ... but I figured I'd start with what I know and go from there. Caveat emptor. :-)

Miken

Well,
I think we just can't get past the ridiculous concept of shipping revolvers in a cardboard box in 1876? It didn't happen!!

When I've conducted hours of patent research? It's actually very entertaining really. As you very slowly page through the hundreds of patents in one single day of one year in say the 1870's? You will be entertained by the continuous attempts to improve both "WAGONS" and "TRAINS"......and I don't mean from a comfort standpoint? I mean a "CONTROL" standpoint.

They were still trying to control them. You know? Trying to "STOP"? Stop those 6 spooked horses on a dirt road filled with pot holes on your way to the Distributor house from the Rail yard ?? Some little kid using his .32 rimfire Smith & Wesson in a field shooting rabbits for breakfast? One of his shots spooked the lead horse and "off you go"!!

I don't know how many of us have gone rabbit hunting? I have and one of the best places is close to the tracks for some reason. My dogs at that time loved Jack rabbit for dinner.

I think we all need to take and thoroughly experience a Freight Wagon ride on a dirt road? It has to be an original freight wagon from the 1870's. No bringing pillows to sit on. You get to sit on a wood plank to get the "FULL" impact from a solid axle freight wagon of that ERA!

I'll bring the video camera to catch folks getting tossed off the wagon when we hit 2 foot deep mud ruts. Remember, the term paved road didn't exist in 1876 and a rail yard is not known for having great roads! Even today!

All I can see in my minds eye is if you were to attempt to ship these revolvers in a flimsy cardboard box stacked on top of each other no less inside a crate with all the packing straw you wanted? 142 miles by "EARLY" pathetic Railroad travel followed by "FREIGHT wagon" technology on dirt roads?

When you opened the crate at the Distributor location what you would see in that crate would be an absolute shredded mess! Sort of like the pile you make of opened boxes on Christmas Morning?

Everything would be damaged way beyond repair.

Come on now! This was 1876 guys!

Murph

An assertion based solely on your (flawed) assumptions about transportation and mass-distribution in the 1870's. Respectfully, flipping through some patent records is hardly an education on the topic.

For some real education on this, you may start with Woodman's book "King Cotton and His Retainers," which will give you an excellent introduction into early market economies and modalities of transportation. There are no lack of good books on the railroads, but Chandler's "The Visible Hand" (Part 2, chapters 3 through 6) provides an extensive discussion about the railroads, their impact on mass-distribution during the latter half of the 19th century, and the various other businesses (like local couriers) that provided the critical "last mile of delivery."

And, despite your assumptions, untold millions of pounds of goods were moved great distances during this time with complete success. And yes, many of those goods were shipped in cardboard boxes. You'd be surprised what a well-packed crate of boxes with some packing material inside can endure. These people weren't idiots.

I know that lots of local roads could be virtually impassable at various times of the year, but despite your claim, there was indeed the concept of a paved road (the ancient Romans were paving roads several millennia before Smith & Wesson were making guns). And given the importance of moving people and goods (to both the local and national economies), you might be surprised how much was invested in the road networks during this time. Flip through the Springfield Republican newspaper from the 1860's and 1870's and you'll see a *lot* of references to local road building and maintenance. Springfield was hardly unique.

Suspension technology for buggies and wagons (and trains) was also pretty advanced by the 1870's. In fact, the rear leaf springs on my pickup truck are directly derived from the leaf springs of this era. Which is not to say that roads weren't bumpy in the spring ... but I think you might be surprised how much stuff (and how many people) were moved around without, as you put it, getting shredded to pieces.

Mike

Very interesting points Mike,

I wonder if Ian’s lovely 2 Baby Russians and original boxes?
Simple question? Do we think that the Auction house that he won these two historical examples were “Brave” enough to ship them “IN THEIR ORIGINAL BOXES”?

Or perhaps were they “smart enough not to”?? Remember this is the year 2020! It’s not 1876 with the fine buckboard shipping they had back then? This is today’s High Tech packing Age!!! With frizbie throwing package carriers!

There should be absolutely ZERO threat whatsoever to those $1200 original boxes! ( The dealer stamped one even more)! Why not ship them inside those extremely rare boxes?
Hey they did it in 1876 right?

BTW: I actually wrote a Shredded Mess not “Shredded to pieces”. Sensationalism sucks in my view! And does not in any way represent the truth!

Murph

Maybe they did. I have no idea. I'm not in the business of making assumptions like you are.

And, I'm not going to assume that a good business decision in 1876 would be a good business decision in 2019. In 1876 I doubt that anyone cared whether the boxes arrived with some scuff marks, and the guns with a bit of wear on the cylinders. Nor were people paying exorbitant sums of money for these guns back in 1876; these were working tools being sold to people who, for the most part, probably tossed the boxes into the fire pit before nightfall. Which is part of why the boxes are so much rarer than the guns.

But you seem to have all of the answers, so by all means hold forth.

It has been my observation that when people start nit-picking about semantics, they are doing so because they've got no substantive argument. But mea culpa; "shredded mess" it is.

Mike

I don’t know.
I’m assuming again here but $12 was a lot of money in 1876! That’s the average price in my Distributor Catalogs.
You worked hard for your dollar a day wage! That Smith represented an average ( another assumption on my part) of 2 weeks pay! I’m assuming again here but I think that folks would want every penny worth and damaged goods? Scuffed or scraped. Even slightly worn represents damaged or used to me but that’s again an assumption on my part.
I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t pick through fruit at a grocery store to avoid bruised food or even looking at tools on a shelf in a store? Just another assumption on my part but I personally tend to avoid an opened box or damaged product when Im paying full price for anything? But that’s just me I can only assume others do the same.

And a Merry Christmas to you too Mike!

Murph

The wage indexes I generally rely on (drawn from the Bureau of Statistics, which the University of Missouri has kindly made available online) show average weekly ranges from $5 or $6 per week (for unskilled labor) to upwards of $20 per week for the more skilled mechanical vocations. So it's anyone's guess just how much this gun cost its first owner (as a percentage of their total wage). But that's just part of it.

In 1876 you may not have had the luxury of going to a variety of different stores to find the product with the least shelf wear. And, given the scarcity of many goods during this time, you may have been glad to find any gun for sale at any of those shops. That was certainly the case in the latter half of the 1860's during Reconstruction, and I suspect it was also the case during the Long Depression of the 1870's when the Baby Russian we're discussing was shipped. If the gun's original buyer was in New York City, then it's likely that he/she would have had their pick of shops ... but in the rest of Small Town America, it would probably have been one hardware store with a small selection of guns.

Insomuch as how these guns were shipped: I have good evidence to suggest that in the 1860's (which is my area of research focus), the guns were shipped in the boxes. This evidence comes primarily from knowing that Smith & Wesson used a Springfield-based box manufacturer extensively during this time, and from never having encountered any evidence that they had made alternative boxing/packaging arrangements for the guns. Anecdotally, I have never seen a period box that wasn't scuffed and scratched on the inside, but it's impossible to know whether that wear happened during shipping or the intervening 150 years. As an aside, S&W used the same box manufacturer to provide boxes for its early cartridge ammunition, which we know was packed into those boxes at the factory. Different form factor, yes, but another small data point to suggest that individual product was shipped in its box from the factory.

Some of the larger military guns were known to have shipped in wooden crates. Since these were typically large volumes of guns going to a single buyer (who wasn't reselling them), I think it makes sense that they were crated thus, and I'm sure that it was cheaper for the factory. I would not make the same assumption about commercial guns, which were probably shipped by Storrs/Robinson in much smaller lots to individual stores.

My finger-in-the-wind guess is that the boxes had some sort of packing material inside. Perhaps a tissue paper of sorts, but it could have been anything that was readily and cheaply available. That would also have meant that Storrs (or whoever the wholesaler was) wouldn't have to fuss with the task of boxing the guns. They were in the logistics business, and they would want to handle the finished product as little as possible.

This, by the way, supports the idea that the inside labels were printed from the factory with Robinson's name. But I think the jury's still out on that, and without more data I think we're just going to wildly speculate. The fonts in the few samples we've seen show a lot of consistency, but that could be because they were using the same type supplier. I can imagine lots of scenarios there.

Of course, everything that I've said could be wrong, and if it is I'd be the first to happily admit as much. I just want to see the hard data to support that assertion.

On a related note ... I have wondered if S&W shipped guns inside of the thermoplastic cases (sometimes erroneously called the "gutta percha" cases), or if those cases were shipped separately. Unlike a cardboard box, those cases were prone to chipping and cracking, especially around the hinges. We do know that these were being sourced by Smith & Wesson, so they somehow made the trip from Springfield to New York (and beyond), but whether they shipped with guns inside of them is anyone's guess.

Mike

I'll agree with the other printers here that the red distributor's imprint was done on a letter press. It would be trivial to set metal type and run a few hundred through. The very old (but immaculate) Heidelberg letter press (aka "the whirlybird") I used to run was a precise and versatile machine and a similar press was no doubt used to make the box labels.

__________________
The triple smoker

It's very possible that the boxes shipped separately to M. Robinson?
I'm only standing firm on the ground that the guns were not shipped "Inside" the cardboard box specifically talking ONLY about the Baby Russians in the year 1876. When I look at my boxes? Well, at least the better condition green boxes (Mine have no picture labels unfortunately)? I find no visible evidence that the gun moved around in the box except for the hammer scraping the top of the box as seen in the OP's box? But that is common wear from removing the gun and placing the gun back in the box. Just like with wood cased guns. It's not wear during rough shipping in my opinion.

But stopping the barrel from "blowing through the side of the box"? or at least leaving a signature that it was bouncing around? I really find that part of the puzzle very hard to comprehend. Even with the gun wrapped in paper. The weight of the gun alone would damage the cardboard box in transit! Especially given the rough conditions in 1876. I can't see how that could have been avoided. Honestly? I can't see the company even considering shipping the Baby Russians in that picture cardboard box. It makes no sense to me from a product care standpoint.

I worked with other members on this forum researching the Baltimore Police Baby Russians, this to confirm that there was a huge shipment of Baby Russians to Baltimore to supply the Police Department? Estimated at between 700-800 guns total. I'm pretty sure those were shipped in wood crates and not in boxes. So I'm only bringing that up to support the position that large orders to M. Robinson also likely shipped in wooden crates with the guns carefully packed tight in the crate, without including them in cardboard boxes.

I would really like to know how they even shipped them in crates without damaging them? That's over 340 miles by train! In 1876 no less!

I have no doubt that there were consumer items shipped in light duty cardboard boxes back then? but heavy guns? That's a hard sell for me.

Plus my research has confirmed that Distributors did in fact have boxes made and the only problem I'm having with the concept of Smith & Wesson shipping the boxes empty to M. Robinson is that stamp on the inside of the OP's box? It's hard to swallow the Company putting that stamp on the box "For" the Distributor? That's beyond being buddies. Sure Pal, I'll write your name above our name on our box for You? Wow.

Murph

Two of the three 'Baby Russian' boxes are marked/printed with the M.W. Robinson markings.

I have five S&W boxes (1st DA .38, 3rd DA .38, 3rd ND .38, SA .32 & 4th DA .32) and none have the M.W. Robinson markings.

Maybe we should start a thread on boxes.

Books

I know I'm always starting something?

Just looking at the penciled name up close? I'm also thinking the name was written on the box much later. The authentic 1800's cursive writing is A' typical when studied. It's almost like folks that were lucky enough to attend school in the late 1800's all went to the same school. Authentic 1800's cursive writing or printing is normally very disciplined and very fancy.

If we look with an open mind at the middle initial? A'? It was printed in lower case for the 1800's. Disciplined cursive of the 1800's? In other words someone that attended school in that period would have used a very fancy Capitol A' for his middle initial in my researched opinion. You will note if you follow my photo's of a time line of teaching? That type of capitol A' was not introduced until many years later in the School system.

So, I'm thinking that penciled name was put on the box much later. Zero impact on value for this box but this person as was mentioned before must have bought the gun used. Or at least the box much later.

Please follow my photos. This is a timeline of typical cursive taught in the United States School system.

++Note: You can see how disciplined and fancy the early school system was? They probably included some pretty violent teaching with a stick as well if you didn't print your A's just like as seen on the chart?

First photo dates from the 1870's.
Second photo is from the early 1920's.
Third photo is from the 1970's and likely is the same today.
Final photo is a close up of the middle initial A' on the box. Also the capitol A in Arlington is also not correct for that time.

Ill let the forum be the judge.



Murph

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I found something else that might support that the guns were shipped outside of the cardboard boxes?

I remembered that many reloading tools of that same ERA were also very heavy and can also be found in original cardboard boxes?

But you will clearly note that the various companies left the caliber section on the label blank? This in my opinion was done to allow the clerk to pencil or pen in the caliber once the tool was placed into the associated box. Not for shipping! But to be placed on the shelf at the Distributor house for sale at the final destination.

These tools can also be extremely heavy and the edges of the tools often pointed. Shipping them outside of the box at that time would have been in my opinion mandatory.

Later tools and boxes had matching caliber markings but that was not until “Form fit packaging” was being used so that the heavy tools or guns could not move around loosely in the flimsy cardboard box! Causing destructive damage to the box and also the tool as well.

Murph

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The were a number of gun dealers on Chambers Street back in the 19th and early 20th centuries. I worked two blocks from Chambers Street.

For those not familiar with Manhattan NY, Chambers Street is in lower Manhattan, just above the financial district and about five city blocks north of the World Trade Center.

Storrs was heavily invested in Smith & Wesson, and may have had some sort of management title within the company (I recall reading about this somewhere, but I don't have my notes in front of me right now). Whatever the case, he was far more invested than other distributors / wholesalers. And Robinson was the heir apparent (his nephew, I recall) that inherited the business, so I'm not surprised in the least that the company would have stamped boxes for him.

And it certainly wouldn't be the only time that a manufacturer has done something for a distributer. Lipseys, Talo and countless others have had custom runs done over the years. From a more historic perspective, the Beakert guns were much the same thing.

The sales agents were absolutely critical to the success of the manufacturers, and companies like Smith & Wesson would be in no hurry to jeopardize that relationship. And a specially printed label would hardly be some sort of hardship, regardless of when the gun was put in the box.

Maybe, maybe not. Regardless of when the product was put in the box, it makes sense that they would have only printed one label and hand-written the caliber. Reloading supplies were much lower volume, and the cost of making different labels (and managing those labels) would have increased the cost unnecessarily. S&W hand wrote labels well into the mid-20th century.

Mike

I'll leave this one also up to the Forum to decide.

Don't let the old "Maybe they did or Maybe they didn't" excuse fool you or lead you to doubt the truth.

I was doing some more research on the early Baby Russian boxes and I found something "EXTREMELY" interesting. See below photo's.

You will notice that there was an early addendum in (Red Ink no less). The same RED INK that you see the Distributors name typed in the same font on top?

The Addendum is an addition to the instructions located right below the Distributors label. With an additional little RED arrow added as well to denote the location in the instructions applicable to the addendum. I found several on web searches. Primarily related to the 4"barrel Baby Russian box but not all!

So, lets put our common sense caps on here for just a minute and avoid the critics sensationalism?

Question: WHO put that matching RED INK Addendum on the box instructions?

Are we to believe that "THE COMPANY" put that on only "SOME" of the boxes? But ONLY those boxes having the DISTRIBUTORS name M. ROBINSON??????? Is that what we want to believe? Or should we believe the obvious??? The photo's below ALL depict Distributor marked box covers. Some are hard to see but they ARE marked with the Distributor name above the Addendum.

The Distributor simply had the box maker modify "SOME" and ONLY SOME of the earliest Baby Russian instructions in the "EXACT SAME COLOR" ink as the Distributors name...….

Why? likely because at first, customers were having problems with the gun. The addition to the instructions is a focus on the locking of the latch/catch. In other words: "Make Sure the barrel is locked to the frame before you pull the trigger"!
This was a new design for the pocket sized revolver. No other gun at that time had the auto eject feature except for the larger caliber 44's and the Schofield. Most of those were Military at that time. Honestly folks those large frame 8" barrel guns likely didn't appeal to the general public that wanted a pocket sized gun! NO BRAINER here folks!!!

*** NOTE: I also noticed that the earliest boxes seem to lack the partition and also the base or bottom of the box seems to be thinner.


Murph

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Regarding Baby Russian and other boxes from this time frame, 1870's +/-:

An extremely credible source informed me that these boxes were all produced in the Springfield area, which makes sense, as the Connecticut River Valley was probably the premier manufacturing region of the country during that timeframe. A company named Taylor, predominantly or exclusively, would have been the most likely manufacturer.

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For me the stamp (Robinson) was set up during the manufacture of the box.
Something written on the bottom, any idea lol !!

__________________
Daniel
SWCA#2471

I'll guess that is the total to purchase the gun, cartridges and a holster? Looks like: $13.68, $.75 and $1.63???

__________________
Mike Maher #283

Here's another fun and rather unique piece related to Baby Russians. This is a go/no go gauge that was used for the ends of the Baby Russian barrels near the barrel catch.

Mike

A recent thread in the “Antiques” section of the forum about a “Baby Russian” suggests this thread is work resurrecting—for fresh eyes!