Has anyone maintained a database of these, these being the New Model Number 3, NOT those chambered in .32-44 and .38-44 in the separate Target Model serial number range. Such that a sense can be had as to how many were in .44 Russian, percentage-wise, more or less (the vast majority), and those in other calibres, and the rarity of each one. I can start by saying that model3sw has stated, and is no doubt correct, that only two were chambered in .45 Schofield, no doubt the rarest configuration, unless there is a Model 3 in existence, or at least having been produced, in some odd-ball calibre such that only one of such was manufactured.

Ian, I'm surprised at you. You're a very educated man, for Pete's sake. Let's review your interpretation of the "actual" statement I did make and have made frequently which I stand by 100%. .

I NEVER claimed (nor stated) there were only 2 New Model 3 Target models in .45S&W were ever manufactured. If others show up that can be verified ... the number of known to exist would increase by 1.

I did state, frequently, that only 2 are known and verified to exist.

Analogy to early post war K-38 Masterpiece "One-liners". For years no one knew (and we still do not know) EXACTLY how many were manufactured before it changed to the Marcus Registradas (Spelling ?) marking. It seems now there could have been a few hundred to a few thousand manufactured but currently only 10 or 11 are known to exist (verified) that collectors track. I have one of those 10 or 11 that I looked for, for about 10 years.

My statement on the New Model 3 Target variation, factory chambered in .45 S&W (Schofield) is that there are only 2 known of and verified / proved as New Model 3 Target currently existing that were manufactured in .45 S&W (Schofield). One has not been seen in decades but we know and believe it to exist because of the heritage of who it belonged to with record of it in Neal & Jinks.

The mystic early post war .38 M&P "Mexican Model" Target. Only a handful are known to exist. The last one i know of that changed hands between members for about 95% condition IIRC for $23,500.00 that belonged to member Michael Tait (RIP). As his power of attorney (at that time), it was sold in approximately 2014-2015. I submitted the serial number only to one other member who keeps track of those "known to exist", protecting the privacy of the buyer. It was presumed, years back that perhaps only 200 were manufactured, most shipped to Mexico. Over the years it's been discovered more than 200 were likely made (no one knows how many for sure, some guesstimates up to 2000) but still only a very small number of authenticated Mexican Model .38 M&P Target, early post ware, were manufactured. IIRC about a dozen are known to exist

Common sense suggests here were likely more than just those 2 manufactured. Who knows how many ???

They are both numbered in the standard series New Model 3s (special ordered, likely) In the higher serial numbers more toward the end of NM3 production. Mine in the 1900s.

So, I do NOT know how many NM3T in 45S&W were actually manufactured by S&W.

I did say that i know of only 2 ever verified to exist after about a 25 years search looking for one. (Makes that now about 35 years of searching still never found another).

Had I not seen a photo of, and reference to, the original one that sparked my curiosity .. many years ago ... In Neal and Jinks, I would never have known ANY existed. Life is a continuous learning experience. Be a leader to learn and to teach but bear in mind the veracity of what you read and what you may say. Always give references. You named me as saying that statement, that is the correct thing to do, however you did a little "faux pas" in the passing the educational material on to others. Books, give references, the more exact the better but remember everything that was ever printed is not necessarily factual ... and (WORSE THEN THAT) ANYONE CAN POST JUST ABOUT ANYTHING (without penalty it seems( on THE INTERNET. Blogs are opinions.

In summation to my testimony on a crash homicide case, I summed up that basing a report, testimony, and / or cause with information on the internet referenced, I called it like quoting as the NATIONAL INQUIRER of the internet. The judge and jury found it quite amusing because it's true. Just about anyone can post just about anything I was specificallyi referencing the NHTSA "complaint" section by car owners. 3 categories .... RECALLS (safety from manufacturer and NHTSA), SERVICE BULLETINS (for data that "appears odd or dangerous but hasn't killed enough people yet (proven) to be accelerated to a RECALL, then there are COMPLAINTS. ANYONE CAN POST A COMPLAINT and while these owners are trying to be helpful the don't have a clue ... LOL. The opposing expert witness based his findings and testimony on 10% fact, 20% old mechanics' tales / stories and 70% internet blogs and threads posted by people with either NO or completely unknown qualifications.

You knew and respected your source of data just "mis-stated" it a bit skewed in the re-telling however it was enough that it could have been that someone may have again even taken your statement out of context even further.

You would have had me in "Duck Soup" (yes, the Marx Brothers version) with my Dad, Ed Cornett, sitting me in the dunce corner ... if, he would have believed I ever made such a blundering statement but my opinion rests that Ed thought better of me than to make a statement like that.

Have fun (and for safety) look up the safety recalls, warnings and customer complaints on your year make model, car:
>>>> Check for Recalls: Vehicle, Car Seat, Tire, Equipment | NHTSA

In an old S&W Journal, Ed Cornett did an article on New Model 3s (standard models non-target) in .45 S&W (Schofield) that he had encountered in his lifetime, most if not all in well worn condition.

Of the other odd calibers, NM3 in .38 Winchester (not sure if designates just target models) were made in their own serial number range.

Ralph Tremaine would be the guy to contact on those. He has one that letters correctly.

Somewhere there is mention of NM3s in .320 RR, 41 Henry Rimfire (IIRC according to Ed). and I :think" some in .44 American. British .450 for sure, most that I ever encountered shipped to England, And just off hand then why not in .455 ? (not sure).

There are also .44-40 Winchester but I've never seen one in a factory produced Target version. (instead of having sights changed later that do not match).

>>>>CHECK THE DATA IN ROY JINKS OR NEAL & JINKS, IIRC 786 of the original production of 2072 produced .44-40s were converted to .44R to help fill a Japanese contract order as the .44-40 just did not go over well at all. Also, many more were taken out of stock to be converted to .44 R before they shipped. (ref: Neal & Jinks, Revised Edition 1975, page 192). I have 3 NM3s chambered in . 44.40 (standard sight configuration). These 3 and several others I've encountered over the years ALL had something wrong, mechanically, mainly the extractor and / or extractor spring (unspialing and getting caught up when being ejected, some wrapped with thin type of tin material then re-inserted. It was a great idea and caliber but for some unknown / unproved (to me) reason ... all just failed to satisfy the user and / or S&W company ... or so it seems, per my experience.

Ed Cornett and Ralph Tremaine will be along, I'm hope, to add some additional facts and share the benefit of their research and knowledge.

Essentially, any caliber a New Model 3 could be ordered in, could have been ordered as a Target version.

I'm saying that in all my years of experience and searching I know of only 2 in .45 S&W (Schofield) Target.

To me, my interpretation is that the majority of the New Model 3s were manufactured in .44 Russian. .44 Russian was later referred to asa .44 S&W. This round later spawned the .44 S&W Special, which later spawned the .44 S&W Magnum)

I hope this clears up any misinterpretations of what I actually stated and what may have been taken out of context on a quick read through.

As always. All the best. Keep it real and like Joe Friday from Dragnet [[with badge and S&W 9mm (pre-39) serial number 714]] ... just the facts. LOL

Best Regards, Sal Raimondi, Sr.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I'm glad I posted what I did, as I misinterpreted what you said. Known to exist vs number manufactured.

If this is the case, as you are aware of two known to exist, but now, you are only aware of the whereabouts of one of them, as the other has not surfaced in decades, "technically", only one is known to exist as the other one cannot be verified as known to exist. Although unlikely, it may have been destroyed over the decades. An unknowing heir might have turned it in during a gun buyback, a natural event may have led to its demise, etc. In which case the one .45 Schofield known to exist is the only one currently known to exist, making it, IMHO, twice as rare as it once was.

It's like the man said, be careful how you say what you say. Yes I had one that lettered correctly----sort of---not quite------but close. We'll get to how close it got directly, but here's how the gun presented.

It's a NM #3 Target. The number is 3914. "38 WINCHESTER CTG" is stamped on the barrel----and that's sure enough what the holes are for. So, whoever it was that made the holes knew what they were supposed to be. Same goes for whoever stamped the barrel---------and that's the end of the line of who knows what.

Here's what the letter has to say: "The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 6.5 inch barrel, adjustable rear target sight, nickel finish, and checkered black hard rubber grips." (We'll stop here for a bit to clear up a minor detail----or a major one---depending on the eyes of the beholder. The finish is blue. The eyes of pretty much any beholder concur.) Okay, back to the letter, and right about here is where the eyes start to roll, and the teeth start to clench. "There are no notes in the records on this revolver. It appears to have been a special order for one unit and the revolvers in this serial range are all .38-44 Smith & Wesson cartridge revolvers." And then it says, "Sorry we cannot solve the mystery." Finally it says, "We trust that the information furnished will be helpful as well as of interest to you." (It says stuff like that so you won't know whether to laugh or cry, and you'll forget about slitting your wrists for at least as long as it takes you to figure out the laughing or crying business.)

Ralph Tremaine

Okay, so the factory clearly knows they made this gun; and they just as clearly have no idea what the caliber is. I reckon if we could sit down and chat with the powers that be from the time they would quickly come to understand why we care about all this------just as we would quickly come to understand why they don't----and didn't at the time----and never will. It's pretty much the same sort of situation as a single shot I had----1st Model, 8" .32 caliber, #14272-----------letters as a 10" .22----whoops! They'd care about that sort of thing if there was a price differential between the two guns (like there is today), otherwise--------Phhhhttttttt, what's the big deal?

These guns are what they are, and any fool can tell what they are at a glance. Case closed! So is there anything about this odd wad NM #3 Target we can hang our hat on? Yep, David Carroll says this is the only one he's ever held in his hands----says he's heard of a couple of others, but this is the only one he's ever seen---up close and personal. That's all there is----there ain't no more----take it or leave it. It's high praise for David that some of us----I reckon most of us----would take it.

I was brought up believing the factory historical records are reflected in Neal & Jinks book Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, and that the solid baseline for all variations of antique Smith & Wesson revolvers sought is to be had within the pages of that book. I've poked around in there from time to time, and have yet to have failed to find what I was looking for. I've assumed right along the information was the best to be had----certainly not chapter and verse nor a day by day accounting, but I didn't expect that to have been left behind by a bunch of folks who were trying to make a buck making guns.

So to any and all seeking to find out roughly how many of what were manufactured, let me suggest spending some time poking around in that book. There's that and a whole lot more.

Ralph Tremaine

I have a New Mod 3 in .44 American serial no 32511. In the factory letter May 7, 1971 Roy Jinks states that "This revolver was shipped from our factory on November 21, 1900 and was purchased by Oakes Merchandise Co. The gun is chambered for the .44 American caliber an is one of two known specimens in that caliber". It letters as 6.5, blue, and checkered black hard rubber grips.

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Petter
S&WCA 1759

Can you post a copy of the factory letter?

Also, does anyone else have oddball NM No 3 chambered revolvers of which they can provide photographs of and/or factory letters?

There is New Model #3 in a February Rock Island auction that is listed as a "45 S&W". The description states the gun has been professionally refinished/restored. The finish is listed as "chrome" but looks like nickel to me.

B. Mower

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WOW!!! This is quite astounding for many reasons and makes more sense if you collect Colt revolvers and understand the history of the .38 Long Colt round.

First, let's begin with a link to Roosevelt's New Model No 3 revolver in .38 Long Colt: NRA Blog | Gun of the Month: Theodore Roosevelt's Smith & Wesson New Model No. 3 Revolver

This article states the following: "This gun features "combat target" sights and is one of only three or four known to have been chambered for the .38 U.S. Service caliber cartridge (.38 Colt). This is unusual, as most S&W New Model No. 3 revolvers were chambered in .44 Russian caliber. Engraving was done at the factory by a member of the Young family. Standard features include a top-break frame, automatic cartridge ejection as the barrel opened fully, and a rebounding-type hammer. Other variations in features and caliber also exist in New Model No. 3 revolvers."

So, the author believes that three or four New Model No 3 revolvers were chambered in .38 Long Colt. I have no references for this so I cannot support or dispute it. It's a claim that, in all likelihood, is probably about right as you don't see a New Model No 3 revolver in .38 Long Colt every day. The author also states that Roosevelt most likely took delivery of this firearm just before training his Rough Riders at San Antonio, Texas. The author omits some very important information, to be later discussed. It is quite obvious Theodore Roosevelt would never have purchased this revolver in such a chambering if it were not for the fact that .38 Long Colt had been adopted by the U.S. Army in the Colt 1892 revolver in 1892. So, Roosevelt ordered this New Model No 3 because it the round was interchangeable with the ammunition utilized in the standard issue revolvers of the time. Fairly clever on Roosevelt's part. Here's a link to the Colt Model 1892 revolver: Colt M1892 - Wikipedia

And, here's a link to the .38 Long Colt round: .38 Long Colt - Wikipedia

You will note the following in the link about the .38 Long Colt:

"The cartridge's relatively poor ballistics were highlighted during the Philippine–American War of 1899–1902, when reports from U.S. Army officers were received regarding the .38 bullet's inability to stop charges of frenzied Moro juramentados in the Moro Rebellion, even at extremely close ranges.[5][6][7][8] A typical instance occurred in 1905 and was later recounted by Col. Louis A. LaGarde:

Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt's revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine.[9]

Col. LaGarde noted Caspi's wounds were fairly well-placed: three bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went through the right hand and exited through the forearm.[10]

As an emergency response to the round's unexpectedly dismal performance, the U.S. Army authorized officers to carry M1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, and issued from reserve stocks."

Because of the poor ballistics, emergency measures were taken to resort to the .45 Long Colt round and revolvers chambered as such. Colt Cavalry revolvers with 7 1/2" barrels were disassembled, the barrels were shortened to 5 1/2", and reassembled without any regard to the serialization of any components, which is why Artillery Model revolvers have mixed number frames, trigger guards, back straps, and barrels.

Significantly, Roosevelt elected to purchase an engraved New Model No 3 in .38 Long Colt. The engraving had to have been for showmanship purposes. He surely could have purchased (or have been issued) a Colt Model 1892 engraved to his specifications, but he did not. I suspect that this is because Roosevelt realized that the New Model No 3 revolver was superior to anything Colt had to offer at the time with regards to loading and unloading on horseback. Loading a Colt Model 1873 revolver, be it a Civilian Model, Cavalry, or Artillery Model involves pulling the hammer back to half cock, and rotating the cylinder six times as each round is chambered individually. The Model 1892 revolver has a cylinder that opens for loading and ejecting, but, in the open position, this might be rather clumsy, bouncing about on horseback. The New Model No 3 revolver simply opens and closes and the loading of rounds, and the ejection of spent rounds, is simpler on the part of the Rough Rider on horseback attempting to reload in quick fashion. Of course, most, or all, Rough Riders did not have the advantage Roosevelt did, having the superior New Model No 3 available to him.

Pictured with this thread is a Colt 1873 Cavalry Model revolver I own dating from the early 1880's and a Colt Artillery Model revolver with the shorter 5 1/2" barrel, as arsenal refurbished. I included John Kopec's authentication letter for this revolver as it provides some of the history behind this.

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Owned by Jim Supica since the 1980s if I recall correctly. It came from a dealer in West Palm Beach.

I recall it being advertised as either the full back inside or outside cover on a Man at Arms ( I think ) magazine.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Someone needs to find Ed Cornett's article from one of the older S&WCA Journals on the .45 S&W New Model 3s he's encountered in his life. IIRC None were factory target sight configured ... and ... all of them had heavy / excessive wear / usage.

I'll ask Ed, that if I find it, may I copy it to allow distribution of copies to members. Ed recently moved from his home of 50 or so years and disposed of much of his paper.

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

One additional little tid-bit-----------the .38 Long Colt round is NOT one of the 14 known calibers for the NM #3 listed in N&J.

Ralph Tremaine

mrcvs, here are the two factory letters for the New Model 3 in .44 American. The letter from 1971 to Dr. John W. Hall came with the gun when I purchased it. I ordered the other letter and it is dated May 14, 2015.

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Petter
S&WCA 1759

I have a Target New Model #3 in .22, but of course it didn’t come that way. But maybe it should have.

I've got one, too. Works flawlessly but obviously converted with cylinder sleeves and barrel bore insert into either a 32-44 or 38-44 Target model.

From the size of the inserted sleeves, could not have been made from an original caliber larger than .38, I feel.

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Can you post a picture of yours? I didn’t put up a pic of mine because I have so many times. Mine was originally .44 R.

Certianly by 1900 anyway, if not 1899, one could have Ordered a 'New Model 3' to be chambered in .38 S & W Special, I would think...

It'd be fun to see one, if in fact any exist.

Post it again. I have seen it before but am still fascinated by the craftsmanship.

Interesting thread! I do own the Col. Roosevelt NM#3 currently on loan to the NRA Museums. It's my all time favorite gun, being my favorite model and owned by my childhood hero.

Other unusual caliber NM#3s in my collection, not all necessarily as chambered by factory (in addition to .44 Rus, .44-40, .32-44, .38-44, .44 RF, & .38 WCF):

Unknown .45 caliber s/n 28094 shipped to William Petty, champion target shooter & 1st NYPD police marksmanship trainer under Police Commissioner T. Roosevelt. Not sure if it was made in this caliber or converted. I only have the barrel & cyl which are mounted on a Rev. Cutter Service frame, s/n 26196. I have no idea how the two halves came together. Target sights.

.450 Boxer, s/n 35243, marked "B 291" on lower left frame, significance unknown. Not sure how I came up with this caliber designation, I don't find a factory letter on it. May have been converted. Target sights.

.455 Mk II, s/n 33831, shipped 1901 to Osbourne & Co, England, scarce 7.5" barrel.

Unknown .45 caliber s/n 26136, factory letter does not confirm caliber, shows as shipped to "A.L. Harvard." It came to me with a credible history of ownership by Maj. Arthur L. "Gat" Howard, and I tend to suspect the factory ledger was a bit illegible on the last name. I'm guessing this is a .455 Brit caliber, but don't know.

.44 American, revolving rifle s/n 819 in a handgun configuration, I have no idea what to believe about this gun - weirdest one in my collection, bought from R.B. Wayman who spun quite a tale about it. DA pat dates on barrel w/ matching s/n. Triggerguard spur. Open on factory records.

.22 rimfire - have a couple obvious conversions, one single shot, the other revolver. Also have a Russian model with a .22 barrel stacked on top of the .44 Rus. barrel.

Jim

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Jim Supica