Model 3 38-44 target

jinx · #1 01-16-2020, 02:00 PM

Friend of mine just bought a S&W 38-44 S&W Ctg. I am going to say it is a model 3.Has adjustable sights on the rear. Barrel has been shortened to 5 inches and a different front sight installed. You can tell because the front sight covers the first few letters of the words stamped into the top of the barrel. Left side of barrel is marked 38-44 S&W Ctg.
The cylinder looks to be a 44 caliber cylinder that has been sleeved to make it 38 caliber. The barrel does not appear to be sleeved and is marked as 38-44. Cylinder and gun butt are same serial number{4321}
Can anyone tell me if S&W used 44 caliber cylinders and sleeved them to 38? Could this be an old time gunsmith building something from available parts?
I just found it odd that a 44 cylinder would be sleeved to 38 way back then.
Thank Ron Treloar

jmace57 · #2 01-16-2020, 04:47 PM

Sounds like and Outdoorsman that has been cut down. I have not heard of S&W using a .44 cylinder and sleeving it, but figure those with a lot more knowledge will pipe in. It is interesting that the numbering matches, but that's an unusual serial number - I think 38-44s started in the low 30,000's.

EDITED TO RECOGNIZE I DIDN'T READ CAREFULLY ENOUGH...NEVERMIND!!!

glowe · #3 01-16-2020, 05:23 PM

Need more details.

It sounds like maybe a New Model 3, single action top-break revolver if it has a small frame hump behind the hammer transitioning into the butt-frame? Let us know.

Also, there is a serial number on the barrel assembly that can be used to tell if the barrel was original to the gun, but from what you are saying, I doubt it. From the rear of the top strap, lift the latch and look straight forward to see vertical steel blocks on either side of the latch. There should be numbers stamped on one or both sides. The latch should also be stamped on the underside. What are those numbers? It is unlikely that the factory would have sleeved a 44 cylinder, unless it was a very late example, but the serial number puts a New Model 3 at before 1880.

jinx · #4 01-16-2020, 07:31 PM

Thanks to you all for the info. I will take another look at it per your requests.

rct269 · #5 01-16-2020, 09:57 PM

If it said 38-44 S&W on the barrel, it's a NM #3---like Gary said; but a very late NM #3 Target.

I don't buy the factory sleeving a cylinder, but I've learned my lesson about saying never.

Ralph Tremaine

mmaher94087 · #6 01-16-2020, 10:35 PM

Everything points to a New Model #3 Target chambered in .38-44. This was a companion revolver to the .32-44 Target. Both were serial numbered in their own group as they were target revolvers manufactured by Smith & Wesson. They were manufactured to use the .44 frame and cylinder but were chambered in lesser calibers. No sleeves were harmed in the manufacture of these revolvers.

glowe · #7 01-17-2020, 10:07 AM

Given the above commentary, check the length of the cylinder if you can? It should be 1 7/16" or 1 9/16" long.

It is my understanding that the 38-44 and several other calibers were all made in one serial number order? Only the Turkish rimfire and the Frontier 44-40 had their own serial number range?

According to the SWCA database, the New Model 3 38-44 does show up in the serial number range from 1500 to 3000. That is one reason why I ask about the cylinder, because those early standard numbers would have all had the short cylinder. No more NM3s appear in the database with that caliber, but it is understood that some were made very late in production and late production guns were the only ones that had caliber markings. The longer cylinder did not appear until after the introduction of the 44-40 Frontier NM3 in 1885.

Just an aside, while searching the database, I ran across two 38 Long Colt (38 US Service) caliber NM3s and one of them was sent to Theodore Roosevelt in 1898! That is only the second model S&W revolver that was ever found with that caliber. Roy doesn't even have that one in his book. The other 38 Long Colt had a note that only 5 or 10 were made.

Forgot to add photos

rct269 · #8 01-17-2020, 11:16 AM

The NM #3 Targets also have their own serial number series, 1-4333---see pages 116 and/or 91, N&J, Revised.

Ralph Tremaine

glowe · #9 01-17-2020, 11:56 AM

Thanks Ralph. I forgot that entry. It was only 32-44 and 38-44 in that series, from 1887 to 1910, so likely those would have been the long cylinder guns. Targets in other calibers would have been in the standard serial number series, but would guess that 44-40 targets would have been in the Frontier series.

So the barrel would likely have had a caliber stamping??

glowe · #10 01-17-2020, 12:15 PM

I guess we are not sure what the OP has yet, since he needs to look at the gun again, but this thread is posted in the antique section and is labeled a Model 3, so seems likely that it is a top-break.

Ralph, just a quick question about another caliber. There were several entries in the database listed in 38-40. The serial numbers were from around 1 to 50 and ship dates were right sfter the turn of the 20th Century, so is this another little known serial number range?

jinx · #11 01-17-2020, 12:58 PM

Just came back from looking this gun over again. Flipping up the rear sight, it is in fact the same serial number as the butt of the gun and the cylinder.{4321}. The cylinder is 1 9/16" in length. I could not find a serial number on the barrel, probably not looking in the right place.I can see where the sleeves were "staked" in place. The marks are on the front of the cylinder. I would think that means they were inserted from the front? And then staked in. No evidence of a weld of any kind. Probably no such thing way back when.
I have taken several pictures with my cell phone that seem to be good. However, I am a dinosaur when it comes to computer literacy so have no equipment or know how to post these photos.
May I ask you posters to give me a cell phone number to send these photos to? I am able to at least do that. That way maybe you could post these pictures.
Thank you
Ron Treloar

rct269 · #12 01-17-2020, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I guess we are not sure what the OP has yet, since he needs to look at the gun again, but this thread is posted in the antique section and is labeled a Model 3, so seems likely that it is a top-break.

Ralph, just a quick question about another caliber. There were several entries in the database listed in 38-40. The serial numbers were from around 1 to 50 and ship dates were right sfter the turn of the 20th Century, so is this another little known serial number range?

Yes---1-74 if memory serves. And that's not counting the one I had in 38-40 (#3914-----from the NM #3 Target series---where all of them were either 32-44 or 38-44.) Well, maybe not ALL of them---------

And I'll be back later on to clear up this short/long cylinder business---if it still needs clearing up by then.

Ralph Tremaine

On second thought, all the yard boy grunt work that needs to be done isn't going to increase, so we'll tend to cleaning up this litter first. For openers, the 38-44 S&W cartridge from the 19th century has nothing whatsoever to do with the 38/44 revolver from the 20th century----which dined on souped up 38 S&W Special fodder.

Next, to the short/long cylinder business: "Most (NM #3's) used 1 7/16" cylinders but 1 9/16" cylinders were used on some after about serial number 30000." (N&J) (One of mine, #30261, pictured on page 190 of N&J Revised, still had the short cylinder.) Now, to the NM #3 Targets (So named because they're a separate series with their own separate serial numbers (1-4333)----and I reckon that's because they were the first S&W to carry adjustable sights as standard equipment.) " All revolvers through serial number 3644 had 1 7/16" cylinders. Starting with 3645 all revolvers, both 38-44 and 32-44, had 1 9/16" cylinders." (N&J)

jinx · #13 01-17-2020, 01:51 PM

I sent Bmur the photos and he graciously agreed to post the pics. Thanks to Bmur for that favor as I do not have the knowledge or wherewithal to do that.

jinx · #14 01-17-2020, 04:10 PM

My question has been answered. Smith and Wesson did not and would not put sleeves in revolver. I don't think any body would. No reason to, they made the guns. All the parts are there.
I have to wonder why a "shade tree mechanic" or a gunsmith or just someone that was tinkering with guns would go to all the trouble to build this? Highly dangerous, and again, all the parts are available and already factory made.
Maybe just because he could.
Thanks again for all the help
Ron

glowe · #15 01-17-2020, 04:20 PM

Here is a review I wrote on the Forum a couple years ago while researching this caliber. Hope it helps.

Solving the 38 Single Shot Accuracy Mystery

I have been struggling with a 38 Single Shot barrel I had acquired through a source that purchased a large lot of factory leftover stock years ago. These barrels had never been issued and were in the white without serial numbers, but had the proper barrel rib stamping for a Model of ‘91. I purchased a 10” barrel in, what was advertised as 38 S&W. This source had all calibers originally available at the time, but I knew that the 38 barrel was the most uncommon caliber out there, so I bought one.

That barrel came from Poppert's years ago. It was said that they were one of the companies that bought out some of the remaining stock of single shot barrels and parts many years ago. I ordered the new-old-stock 38 Single Shot barrel in the white to go with my Model 1891 SA revolver. Shot a lot of 38 S&W ammo in the gun without much accuracy until I noticed that the chamber was quite long. Measuring it I determined it matched the 38/44 case exactly.

I called Poppert's for more data and they stated that all barrels were sold as they came from the factory and offered to trade it back to them for a short chambered 38 S&W barrel, but I said no thanks, I'll keep it. My assumption is that somebody in the S&W factory did some experimentation and modified the chamber to take the long brass. Maybe did some testing, but never pursued it further.

I cannot validate any of this information beyond what was told to me, but the results of my recreating the original loads, was that target shot at 25 yards.

I had a nice Model of 1891 factory target revolver, 38 S&W, that I had received from a SWCA member and thought that barrel would complement the revolver. After receiving the barrel, I blued it and, through the assistance of a few more members here, I acquired and/or made parts to install an extractor, sights, and put together the Single Shot. On my first trip to the range, plus several more, I could not come up with a load that would hit paper at 25 yards and very inaccurate at 50 feet. Trying several different types of bullets, powders, and crimp styles, I saw no improvements. As I was cleaning the barrel recently, I finally noticed the chamber seemed quite deep, so measuring the chamber I found it to be much longer than a 38 S&W round. Now thinking it might have been bored out for 357 brass. Loaded up some 357 Mag cases with .360 bullets and they would chamber easily and still seemed short, plus there was no improvement at the range. Was about to give up on the SS barrel, but a very learned member (Ralph) suggested that I check the chamber measurement and compare it to a 38/44 Target case. As it turns out, the chamber was exactly the same length as an old 38-44 Target round. The original cartridges were loaded as follows” The 38-44 is a special target cartridge containing 20 grs of powder and 146 of lead either self-lubricated or grooved bullet. Bullet is seated even with mouth of shell. Penetration 6 7/8 in pine boards. Gallery charge, 6grs of powder and 70gr round ball loaded in same shell.

In order to reproduce the ballistics of the original caliber, I acquired 50 rounds of 357 Remington Max and cut it down to just under 1.5”. Used a 158 grain gas check SWC. The reason for the selection was that the bullets dropped from my mold at .361”, just what I needed. I loaded as specified with BP and shot over a chronograph and got around 700 fps. I then worked up a olad using 3.2 grains of Unique and filled the case with Puflon. Velocity averaged 661 fps and accuracy improved dramatically at 25 yards. Now I am onto something here and look forward to loading more ammo to shoot at longer ranges with different powders and bullets to further improve accuracy.

Pictures are of the assembled set that I had shared when I first put together a case for the set. The chamber shows no sign of ever being bored out, so am wondering if it was something the factory may have played with during the production time of the 1st Model Single Shot? If so, I might have the only 38/44 Target barrel out there???? Just another fun adventure with a S&W.

glowe · #16 01-17-2020, 04:35 PM

As for the 38/44 origins, I have a brochure for the revolver and assume it is from 1930, when the 38/44 Outdoorsman was introduced. Not much on the ballistics, but interesting read anyway. I also have the following in my notes about the performance of the cartridge.

The first 38/44 Heavy Duty was shipped from Smith & Wesson on 2 April 1930. This model was built in response to law enforcement's requirement for an arm that would shoot a high speed round which could penetrate car bodies and bullet proof vests. The collaboration between Smith & Wesson, Remington and Elmer Keith produced the 38/44 S&W cartridge which could launch a 158 grain bullet at 1175 fps and producing 460 foot pounds of energy. This round would penetrate 11ea 7/8inch thick boards and would go thru the trunk of a car, seats, dash and into the engine area. The factory first offered this gun in a 5 inch barrel, blue or nickel finish and service stocks. Some special orders were received early in production for the pistol with adjustable sights which was the precursor of the 38/44 Outdoorsman which would first appear in 1931.

glowe · #17 01-17-2020, 08:27 PM

Never held a 38-44 or 32-44, but they must be heavy guns. Lots of extra metal in the cylinder and barrel.

Yes, brass would fit right to the face of a 1 7/16" cylinder. I have a couple of original UMC 38-44 cartridges and they measure 1.46".

rct269 · #18 01-17-2020, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Never held a 38-44 or 32-44, but they must be heavy guns. Lots of extra metal in the cylinder and barrel.

Yes, brass would fit right to the face of a 1 7/16" cylinder. I have a couple of original UMC 38-44 cartridges and they measure 1.46".

Yeah, that was the whole idea of the 38-44----zero throat----the bullet's out of the case, and immediately into the rifling. The only thing better is the so called Olympic Chamber in some 3rd Model Single Shots---the bullet's already in the rifling when it's fired. The cartridge was Ira Paine's baby---his design. The old wives tales have it he set records with the gun and cartridge combination that have never been beaten. I don't know the truth of that one way or the other---but it wouldn't surprise me.

Ralph Tremaine

mmaher94087 · #19 01-17-2020, 10:39 PM

Be careful, the first introduced .38-44 was a different cartridge than the "The first 38/44 Heavy Duty" cartridge.

To the OP, does the cylinder serial number match the frame? I suspect that the original cylinder failed from shooting modern .38-44 rounds and a gunsmith sleeved a .44 cylinder back to the .38.

rct269 · #20 01-18-2020, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

Be careful, the first introduced .38-44 was a different cartridge than the "The first 38/44 Heavy Duty" cartridge.

To the OP, does the cylinder serial number match the frame? I suspect that the original cylinder failed from shooting modern .38-44 rounds and a gunsmith sleeved a .44 cylinder back to the .38.

Yeah---he says the numbers match in his first post, so I reckon it is what it is, and we'll never know.

Ralph Tremaine

jinx · #21 01-18-2020, 08:53 AM

All the numbers match that I can find. It does not appear to have been reblued. I like the theory of the hot loads damaging the cylinder and then boring it out and sleeving. that would make sense.

glowe · #22 01-18-2020, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

All the numbers match that I can find. It does not appear to have been reblued. I like the theory of the hot loads damaging the cylinder and then boring it out and sleeving. that would make sense.

I may have missed it, but cannot find where you replied to two questions that could clear this whole thing up. First, what is the serial number under the latch and on the barrel assembly ahead of the latch on the barrel assembly?? You will need a strong magnifier. Second, did you measure the length of the cylinder??

Jim Watson · #23 01-18-2020, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Never held a 38-44 or 32-44, but they must be heavy guns. Lots of extra metal in the cylinder and barrel.

Yes, brass would fit right to the face of a 1 7/16" cylinder. I have a couple of original UMC 38-44 cartridges and they measure 1.46".

I had a .38-44 Target and yes, it was heavier and less well balanced than a .44. I read that W. Winans shot the .38 for a while but went back to .44.

I cut .357 Maximum to cylinder length and loaded it with various bullets, submerged in the case. Strangely enough, the most accurate load I had for it was with a 125 gr Speer swaged lead 9mm bullet. Note that .357 Max is smaller O.D. than .38-44 and will expand like a Special in a reamed BSR, only more so. I did not consider it a hazard with 3 grains of powder.

On the OP's gunsmithing project, I would like to see the muzzle and breech of the barrel.
The "38" in ".38-44" is not even with the rest of the stamp and looks like it was struck harder.

mmaher94087 · #24 01-18-2020, 12:40 PM

I wonder if this revolver is made from two guns? "Cylinder and gun butt are same serial number{4321}" possibly a .44 Russian caliber which were married to the .38-44 Barrel? That would explain the .44 cylinder and sleeves. We need the barrel serial number.

mmaher94087 · #25 01-18-2020, 02:07 PM

Post #13: " I could not find a serial number on the barrel, probably not looking in the right place.".

bibain · #26 01-18-2020, 03:05 PM

Hello
By observing the photograph, we can see a ring, the sleeve only seems to be on the exit of the cylinder, maybe to fire the caliber 38 sw (or other) without losing the gas , due to the smaller diameter of a bullet of 38 sw.

The diameter of entry and exit of the cylinder of my 38/44 is 0.38 inch
The diameter of a 38 sw bullet is 0.35 inch

It would be interesting to check more precisely the dimension and the shape of this sleeve
It does not appear to have been designed to fire 38/44

bibain · #27 01-18-2020, 04:12 PM

Mine also has the same marks on the back of the cylinder, that's why I thought of a sleeve only crimped at the front

BMur · #28 01-18-2020, 04:19 PM

Hey Bibain,
Yours is a low serial number! That means the cylinder should be 1 7/16ths? Is it? Also, if it is? Are the chambers straight cut? Or is there a cartridge stop machined inside? Can you please show a photo of the chambers?

Murph

glowe · #29 01-18-2020, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

Post #13: " I could not find a serial number on the barrel, probably not looking in the right place.".

Jinx, I tried to take a quick shot of the location where the serial number is located on the barrel. The image is taken looking from the rear of the top latch forward.

bibain · #30 01-19-2020, 06:07 AM

Hello
Mine is a 1 7/16 ", unfortunately, it was very damaged by shooters who were not very respectful of old weapons, who fired with modern powders, bullets not always well calibrated, and made long shooting sessions ……. everything not to do with a top break.
1413 38/44 target have been manufactured, 390 had 1-9 / 16 ”length cylinders.
the 38 44 have no chambers, the barrel measures 1.43 inch and the case 1.475 inch.
the photograph of my first post clearly shows that the case is as long as the cylinder , it is for this reason that I thought that the sleeve was installed to use the shorter cartridges without losing too much gas.
if there is a sleeve on the rear side, it would appear to be of a diameter less than a case of 44 sw russian .
This is just an idea i got from two photographs
Additional measures and details would be interesting

jinx · #31 01-19-2020, 08:38 AM

glowe: I did find the serial number of the barrel and it matches the the numbers on the cylinder and the butt. Also, I do see that the sleeve appears to be thicker on the staked or front of the cylinder as opposed to the rear. And possibly of different material.
Very interesting.
Thanks to all again

Boulder350 · #32 01-19-2020, 09:20 AM

After a while 38-44 ammo was probobly hard to find so i bet it was sleeved so it could fire 38 s&w ammo with accuracy. Thats why the sleeve is thicker on the end of the cylinder. 38-44 cylinders are bored straight through. Is there a step in the cylinder chamber now?

The cylinder is actually long enough to chamber the 38 special round, if the sleeve accommodates it.

glowe · #33 01-19-2020, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

glowe: I did find the serial number of the barrel and it matches the the numbers on the cylinder and the butt . . .

Thanks for finding that last number. Your friend now has a bona fied matching 38-44 Target S&W, which is somewhat of a rarity, given that they seldom are found for sale. I would be very tempted to have the cylinder redone as noted in a previous post. There are restoration gunsmiths who can perform this task with almost invisible results and it would add more value to the gun than the work needed to be done.

I would also have your friend get a factory letter. As for the barrel, it certainly lowers value, but very few collectors today have any examples of the NM3 Target revolver, so it is still worth good money to many collectors.

mmaher94087 · #34 01-19-2020, 08:10 PM

"..I did find the serial number of the barrel and it matches the the numbers on the cylinder and the butt.". Well, that blows my theory of two guns put together. Since we're left with the fact that the .38-44 is all matching; what happened to the revolver to necessitate lining the cylinder??

jinx · #35 01-20-2020, 08:13 AM

I have been passing all of the information you folks provided onto the owner of this gun.
Also have been trying to get out of him what he thought he was buying. He is pretty tight lipped. I think he may be embarrassed about what he paid for this thing. I won't say what he paid, but I think he was taken for a ride. He must have bought a story and not the gun.
Thank you for your wisdom.

BMur · #36 01-20-2020, 01:58 PM

Wow,
Shut my mouth! I did not realize that there are cartridge adaptors already machined out there. Several manufacturers of stainless adaptors that can adapt shotguns to .38's. Rifles to .32acp. etc. So a machinist can use a set of these adaptors and machine them down to fit in the cylinder of your 38/44. That would cut the cost way down. So with the pre-made adaptors the machining process is cut way down to just machining the existing cylinder to fit the inserts. Then cut them to fit and weld them invisible.

***** One last tip. Make sure you tell the machinist the "SAVE" that original serial number on the cylinder. Tell him/her that the serial number must remain "undamaged" and the original bluing also must be saved. The cylinder will heat up from the honing and fitting? Also, the welding of the face of the cylinder? but the finish can for the most part still be saved since it's electric tig welding and the heat can be kept to a minimum if the machinist is made aware of the importance of the original finish. they simply slow the welding process down a little and let the cylinder cool and also apply air cooling. So, it can be done. I have done this myself with Mig welding. You just take your time and the finish is saved.

Probably in the $700 range. See photo.

Murph

glowe · #37 01-20-2020, 03:10 PM

It all depends on how big the hole is drilled in each chamber. I could make a guess that it may be bigger than any standard sleeves out there today. Good news is that it only takes a fabticated straight tube to line all cylinders. The gunsmith or machinist will probably bore the holes just a tad over what they are now, then machine a tube to tightly, complete with the proper chamber size and insert.

jinx · #38 01-21-2020, 08:08 AM

I have given all the information to him. We will see what happens.
Thank you

Oyeboteb · #39 02-11-2020, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

I'd like to see some historical reference for the 38/44 pre .38 special?
It's my understanding that the 38/44 refers to the .38 caliber on a 44 frame. Prior to the introduction of the .38 special I can find no reference in any of my books to the 38/44 except for Mr. Jinks book that references the date of introduction to be 1887 for both the 32/44 and 38/44 target variations.
Which pre-dates the .38 special by 12 years. However, I can find not one single loading data reference for this cartridge pre-1899. I have several loading books back to 1884. Zero references to that cartridge, bullet, powder data, etc. Not even in gallery loads. Very interesting. What exactly did the 38/44 cartridge look like for the early 38/44 target New Model 3? I'm thinking it must be a gallery load in the old 38 S&W round? Wow, that would be a very rare collectable. A short cylinder target 38?

Talk about rare!

Murph

There were two different ".38 - 44" Cartridges.

The earlier one, the Cartridge Case was same diameter as .38 S & W, but much longer, and occupied the full length of the Cylinder, the Bullet was entirely inside the Cartridge Case...cylinder was 'Bored Through', straight, no step.

This was a Target Cartridge...used in the S & W 'New Model 3" .44 Frame size Target Revolvers, hence the "38 - 44" designation ( if possibly some model 1891 Single Action S & W "38" size Frames, may have been special ordered for chambering it also ).

The original ".38 - 44" Cartridges look like this -

Hosted on Fotki

The other and later "38 - 44" of the mid latter 1920s on a ways, was simply a .38 Special Cartridge which was loaded to higher pressures then standard-loading .38 Special, and was meant at least initially or primarily, for use in the heavier .38 Special Chambered S & W 'N Frame' or Colt 'New Service' Revolvers.

Oyeboteb · #40 02-11-2020, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

I'd like to see some historical reference for the 38/44 pre .38 special?
It's my understanding that the 38/44 refers to the .38 caliber on a 44 frame. Prior to the introduction of the .38 special I can find no reference in any of my books to the 38/44 except for Mr. Jinks book that references the date of introduction to be 1887 for both the 32/44 and 38/44 target variations.
Which pre-dates the .38 special by 12 years. However, I can find not one single loading data reference for this cartridge pre-1899. I have several loading books back to 1884. Zero references to that cartridge, bullet, powder data, etc. Not even in gallery loads. Very interesting. What exactly did the 38/44 cartridge look like for the early 38/44 target New Model 3? I'm thinking it must be a gallery load in the old 38 S&W round? Wow, that would be a very rare collectable. A short cylinder target 38?

Talk about rare!

Murph

No Loading Data would have ever been necessary as the original "38-44" was a Black Powder Cartridge, and it's length, and how the Bullet or Ball was always entirely inside the Cartridge Case, allowed one to load it to a range of velocities and or with varying weight and kinds of .361-ish Projectiles, how-ever one wished.

Light Gallery Loads, 12 Grains of BP, and a Ball seated firmly on the Powder, with lots of empty Case above.

Full House Loads, Heavy Bullet, over how-ever many Grains of 3 F BP one could compress, to end up with Bullet nose flush with case Mouth, so long as the same every time, for long distance.

Took a little while for the earliest "Wadcutter" Bullets to make their debut, but by the mid 19-ohs, there were a few to chose from for this, and for .38 Special also, and of course.

Image shows a flawed Casting, but this is the earliest .361 Wadcutter I know of, and was based on the designs of Mr. Himmelwright, who had suggested the same form but larger for the .44 Russian for Paper Target Shooting.

Hosted on Fotki

Oyeboteb · #41 02-12-2020, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

After Glowe posted his extensive research on the 38-44 cartridge I decided to look into my earlier loading data and confirmed the earliest bullet design for the Target Smith & Wesson in 38-44 are seen in photo 1.

Weighing 110 grains heeled and 100 grains hollow based. These date to 1889 in my loading data. So that’s pretty early.

The next bullet that shows up is in 1898 as an improvement having more lubrication bands and an increase in bullet weight to 145 grains. See photo 2.
** I also have in my collection a Smith & Wesson Peanut wood handle bullet mold with this exact same target bullet.

The first wadcutter is the Himmelwright bullet as mentioned. However, it was actually for the .44 Russian in the New Model 3 introduced in 1900. See photo 3.

The earliest wadcutter that I could find for the 38 cal was introduced in 1903 as the Crabtree Wadcutter. See photo 4.

Himmelwright introduced his design for the .38 in 1905. All of the target .38 cals listed as a .360 diameter bullet with various weights between 100 grains and 175 grains!

So this research suggests that the earliest target bullets were those very light bullets seen in photo one that date to right about when the target models were introduced in about 1887. However, what contests that position is when we look to Smith & Wesson loading tools of that “ Exact” same timeframe? Only the 145 grain bullet in photo 2 is found in the bullet molds that I have ever seen or heard of.
It’s interesting to me that there were multiple bullets available for the target .38-44 during early production. This research confirms 3 of different weight and design.

Murph

Great info Murph!

Any chance you have the IDEAL Mold Numbers for the 1st and 2nd Bullets - The Round Nose ones?

I have the IDEAL Mold for the Crabtree example, Mold Blocks integral with the Handles, but I do not know where it is presently to find the Mold Number for it.

If I can round it up, I'll post it.

Oyeboteb · #42 02-12-2020, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Oyeboteb,
I like the early Ideal molds also. Rare birds though!

Here is the list I have. It looks like the numbers changed at some point though. I don’t know why but likely due to the growing number of molds available For the 38 special and the huge difference in popularity of that caliber beyond 1905? So other molds basically inherited those early numbers and the Wadcutters listed became 358 diameter. So the 360 wadcutters are about the rarest molds out there I’d say!!!

The earliest molds for the 38-44;

Mold number. Bullet weight/type

36073. 100 grain RN Hollow based
36072. 110 grain RN Heeled

360345. 1903 Crabtree WC
360271. 1904 Wilder. WC
360302. 1905 Himmelwright WC

Murph

Thank you Murph!

I missed out on a Himmelwright pattern 'IDEAL' Mold for .455 Webley / .45 Colt a while back...darn it...it may well have been the only example I will ever see.

I'll find my Intergal Handle 'IDEAL" Crabtree pattern Mold hopefully sometime while we're young and post some pictures of it.

I know I was casting with it last year sometime, so it has to be around here someplace!

So, on my end here, having a New Model 3 Target Pistol in .44 Russian, and one in .38 - 44, and a couple S&W m 1902 and earliest m1905 Target Models in .38 Special, I got them because I had been all fired up for a long time about what all was going on Target Shooting wise in the late 1880s, 1890s, earliest 1900s, so, then, trying to find right Molds, soon followed...and is still following of course.

I also have the Mold for the little step nose Semi Wadcutter intended for 9mm Luger and . Colt 38 Automatic, which Mold also came out I t-h-i-n-k, sometime in the mid 19-ohs, ( though my Mold is from later and is not the integral Handle kind ) and I got a few hundred of those cast up a month or so back, but have not loaded any of them yet. Looks like it would feed just fine.

Looks like this -

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Oyeboteb · #43 02-12-2020, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Oyeboteb,

I sure would like to see a photo of your early Ideal Integral Wadcutter bullet mold.

Here is a photo of mine. Extremely rare! A .360 Target Wadcutter for the 38-44. Dates to the very early 190? This is a very early mold seen in photo 1&2. And specifically designed for the 38-44 Target in .360.

I’ve never seen another one like it.
So this bullet would have been used for the S&W New Model 3 Target with the bullet seated all the way into the longer case.

Typical of all later Wadcutters for the .38 special in .358.

*** Note: these molds typically place the heel of the bullet on top next to the spru cutter. So the front of the bullet is facing down. Very early design. You can see bullet orientation in photo 3 with yellow line pointing at what looks like the Case crimp groove. So just the very tip of the Wadcutter would stick out of the case. This assessment fits like a glove.

Murph

What a wonderful early Wadcutter!!!

I sure like that one!

We may have to trade some Cast Boolits one of these days!

Oyeboteb · #44 02-12-2020, 07:31 PM

I am in Brass Limbo with my .38 - 44.

I have about 60 odd original charged Cartridges, but of course I do not want to shoot them, it would feel wrong to me to do 'Posterity' wise, even if it may be silly to think and feel this way.

So, I sent off for a bunch of .357 Maximum, and a Wilson Case Trimmer, and I had them prepare a Case holder for this, and I kind of stalled then as for the next steps, and for how to enlarge the 357 Maximum Cases, as well as not feeling as happy about using them, as I would feel about using Right Brass to begin with.

I had no luck at all finding empty .38 - 44 Brass, but I had oddly good luck finding original charged Cartridges, so...sigh...

At least my New Model 3 .44 Russian, I have about 100 or so excellent condition Balloon Head Cases, so I am "Good to go" with that one anyway.

Oyeboteb · #45 02-13-2020, 12:39 AM

Hi Murph!

The Cases I am going to modify and use are .357 Maxiumum, so, they are longer than .357 Magnum, and so long, that I have to shorten them to arrive at the right length for the 'New Model 3' .38 - 44.

They ought to fire form just as you say, at least on most of their upper portion anyway.

I have a few two Cavity IDEAL and LYMAN Molds, and oh yeahh, even those make it all a lot faster than the single Entity ones!

Wish it was back-when, so we could just write to them and order any Bullet-entity we want in a four cavity or even an Armory Mold!

I think I have three different early 360 or 361 IDEAL Molds...

I have a two Cavity IDEAL "360 271 S" which is an early Semi-Wadcutter, but I forget now who designed it, or when it came out...and I have not cast anything with it yet...just got it a couple weeks ago.

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I have about 10 old Molds sitting right on my Desk here for inspiration, so, it's easy to snap a fast picture of the ones handy anyway.

I bought one of the el cheapo basic small size Lee Electric Melters, which one uses a Dipper with, and it has been a complete joy in every way, no scorched Handles, comes up to heat fast, melts the ingots quickly, Molds to be used warm up sitting on the wide edge of the Pot, elegant, easy, fun!

Oyeboteb · #46 02-13-2020, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

Just came back from looking this gun over again. Flipping up the rear sight, it is in fact the same serial number as the butt of the gun and the cylinder.{4321}. The cylinder is 1 9/16" in length. I could not find a serial number on the barrel, probably not looking in the right place.I can see where the sleeves were "staked" in place. The marks are on the front of the cylinder. I would think that means they were inserted from the front? And then staked in. No evidence of a weld of any kind. Probably no such thing way back when.
I have taken several pictures with my cell phone that seem to be good. However, I am a dinosaur when it comes to computer literacy so have no equipment or know how to post these photos.
May I ask you posters to give me a cell phone number to send these photos to? I am able to at least do that. That way maybe you could post these pictures.
Thank you
Ron Treloar

Are there a 'step' or small change in dameter, in these Cylinder Chambers/Bores?

Images showing the Cylinder rear and front, the rear Holes kind of look a little larger to me, than the front Holes do.

If you or the person who has it have any empty .38 S & W Brass, see how one of those fits.

BMur · #47 02-13-2020, 02:28 AM

I see what you’re trying to accomplish but honestly I think the results would be about the same using a much cheaper and easier to find .357 Mag case. But let me know how it turns out.
My 38-44 Target is bored straight through. The chambers closely mimic a 357 Mag.

Murph

Oyeboteb · #48 02-13-2020, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

Post #13: " I could not find a serial number on the barrel, probably not looking in the right place.".

Lift up the Latch and look to the small vertical flat rectangular area on the right...it is on that tiny end portion of the Barrel.

Oyeboteb · #49 02-13-2020, 02:45 AM

Looking to the image showing the front of the OP's Cylinder -

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I think we can see a little 'step' back in there a ways.

My own hunch is that this Cylinder was converted to be .38 Special.

Bored out large enough to have acceptable section/thickness Sleeves installed.

Step is too far forward to correspond to .38 S & W I think.

Which, granted, would not be an ideal match diameter wise for the Bore, but with Hollow Base Wadcutters, who knows, maybe it did 'okay enough' or maybe not and was set aside and on from there.

Blueing does look mighty nice all things considered...

Oyeboteb · #50 02-13-2020, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

I see what you’re trying to accomplish but honestly I think the results would be about the same using a much cheaper and easier to find .357 Mag case. But let me know how it turns out.
My 38-44 Target is bored straight through. The chambers closely mimic a 357 Mag.

Murph

.357 Mag Brass is too short.

Both .357 Mag and 357 Maximum are also a little too small in diameter.

I got a hundred .357 Maximum "once fired" and inexpensive.

They will still have to be shortened, expanded, and then Loaded up and Fire Formed.

Of course, how-ever much of the base of the Case and up how-ever far, will not expand with that, but, most of the Body's upper portion should.

Maybe I should anneal their upper third or so, to help that...

and or, I need to find or make a Die element to expand them so they will accept my .360 or .361 Bullets.

At least with these one does not need a Crimp Die, anyway..! ( and I hope no one will be creeping out on recoil...so, we'll see...)