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Old 02-15-2020, 10:34 AM
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Default Double Action Frontier Revolver

I know very little about S&W antiques so I though I'd ask a question.
There's a local auction tomorrow showing a Double Action Frontier Revolver in 44-40 listed. There aren't any pictures and very little info. They're showing a date of 1903 for the gun and that's about it. My question is was S&W still producing that model in 1903?
I haven't made up my mind if I want to go have a look or not yet.
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Old 02-15-2020, 10:55 AM
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SCSW says they were cataloged from 1886 to 1913 serial number range 1-15340 but all the frames were made prior to 1899 making it a antique.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:01 AM
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SCSW says they were cataloged from 1886 to 1913 serial number range 1-15340 but all the frames were made prior to 1899 making it a antique.
Thanks that answers another question that was lingering in my mind, There are several guns for sale at this auction and they have a dealer do transfers and I was wondering if they were going to try a gig me with a $20 fee if I purchase the revolver.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:28 AM
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The fee is up to the individual auction. In all cases where I have bought using my C&R I have still had to pay the 10-15 transfer fee. Technically al the guns in the auction are on the books of the FFL (who may or may not be the auctioneer).
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:52 PM
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The auction is for a private person through the auction company. The auction company uses a FFL holder to do the transfers and background checks. Technically the Double Action Frontier is a antique and shouldn't require a 4473 to be filled out.
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:24 PM
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Most auction houses are totally ignorant as to what's a S&W antique antique and often have put guns like the S&W Frontier on their FFL dealer books and will try to charge you a transfer fee, especially if the gun was shipped after 1898. You can request them to look at the BATF web page for a list of S&Ws that are antiques, even though shipped after 1898, and maybe they will, or not. If the FFL has the gun on his books, it can be deleted as an error and the gun delivered to the buyer w/o any 4473. Ed.
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:44 PM
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How much is your time worth? I would probably pay the $20 rather than spend 30 minutes trying to convince someone in charge that the firearm did not require a transfer through an FFL.

I was shopping for a black powder replica. The sales site said must go to an FFL. I objected, they said it was a store policy regardless of federal law.
Didn't buy the gun.
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:30 PM
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How much is your time worth? I would probably pay the $20 rather than spend 30 minutes trying to convince someone in charge that the firearm did not require a transfer through an FFL.

I was shopping for a black powder replica. The sales site said must go to an FFL. I objected, they said it was a store policy regardless of federal law.
Didn't buy the gun.
I just called the FFL doing the transfers he told me there are several guns that fall into the antique category but the people doing the auction want all of them to go through the transfer process. While we were talking he said the revolver was listed incorrectly that's it's a .44 Russian not a 44-40. So as of now I'm still sure if I'll go to the auction or not.
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:18 PM
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I sure wish it was $20 here in California. You fellas don’t know how good you have it!
It’s $120 here now!! and it’s going up again. It’s robbery! The anti- gunners are pricing us into oblivion! That’s the best price through my personal FFL dealer. Others are even more!



Murph
I'm truly sorry for what you have to put up with in California, 20-30 is the going price here in the free state of Missouri.
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:51 PM
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How successful was the Double Action Frontier Model ?
1. Were They popular ?
2. Did They stand up to rough treatment like the Model 1973 Army Model ?
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Old 02-16-2020, 10:27 AM
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How successful was the Double Action Frontier Model ?
1. Were They popular ?
2. Did They stand up to rough treatment like the Model 1973 Army Model ?
The numbers tell the story. There were 43,329 New Model 3 revolvers made from 1878 to 1912, or 35 years production. The Double Action production totaled 70,008. They were made from 1882 to 1913, or 32 years.

It has often been said that the large framed Double Action revolvers were not popular, but there were more sold in less time than the large framed Single Action counterparts? Go figure?? Having owned a few and still shooting them tells me that they are wonderful machines for their time, with no issues, except maybe a long and stiff double-action trigger pull, but nothing compared to the 38 Safety Double Action only revolvers.

I think another misnomer is that they had too many parts, allowing them to break more often. I also believe this is another fallacy to be dispelled by those owners who own and still shoot them. Of course there are many worn out DAs out there, but I have never owned one that broke at the range??
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:59 PM
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The numbers tell the story. There were 43,329 New Model 3 revolvers made from 1878 to 1912, or 35 years production. The Double Action production totaled 70,008. They were made from 1882 to 1913, or 32 years.

It has often been said that the large framed Double Action revolvers were not popular, but there were more sold in less time than the large framed Single Action counterparts? Go figure?? Having owned a few and still shooting them tells me that they are wonderful machines for their time, with no issues, except maybe a long and stiff double-action trigger pull, but nothing compared to the 38 Safety Double Action only revolvers.

I think another misnomer is that they had too many parts, allowing them to break more often. I also believe this is another fallacy to be dispelled by those owners who own and still shoot them. Of course there are many worn out DAs out there, but I have never owned one that broke at the range??
Indeed, the big frame 'DA's are very fine, robust, reliable Revolvers, with about as direct and simple a Mechanism as anyone could ever see, and I can find no basis for any doubts or complaints about them in History or since, nor in reviewing their engineering and mechanics.

The DA Pull through and SA cocking will feel very different if one is used to the later N-Frame Revolvers...and for some people, this can be off-putting, since they are used to the feel of the later Hand Ejectors.
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Old 02-16-2020, 03:06 PM
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There is the short action of the post-WWII era, the long action K & N frames of the early Twentieth Century which, to me, are very much like the 44 DAs of the Nineteenth Century.
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Old 02-16-2020, 04:48 PM
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The Historical “Root Cause” of stiff action can be traced back in time to the Engineered “ Requirement “ to incorporate a very stiff main spring. This stiff spring is found in all Antique firearms that still have the original main spring. Many are not original! That required the operator to labor to work the action.
Improvements in primer design and material allowed a significant reduction in main spring tension beginning in the 1890’s that complimented a much smoother action.
You can safely modify antique “ Stiff” action by replacing the main spring with a modern “ High Tech” spring and you will immediately notice the vast improvement in the antique action. Especially on the hammerless variations!
Soo many Antique Colt Single Action Army Revolvers now support a “ Modern” main spring that it is deceiving! The smooth action is NOT original. They originally had extremely stiff actions!
You can actually replace the old double action main springs on Antique large frame Smiths with a modern double action spring. The difference is amazing! Very smooth!
Ok, Ill admit it. I’ve changed most of mine. Primarily the ones I shoot.

*** The easiest way to tell is to remove the grips and look at the base of the main spring where it sits in the frame slot? The original springs take up the entire slot. A modern or later replacement Post 1890ish is much thinner and made of much higher quality spring steel.

Murph
I have a New Model 3 Single Action which needs a new Main Spring - some prior person had broken off one of the 'Ears' which hook over the Stirrup of the Hammer Link ( or whatever it is called ).

Are these the same Main Spring as the New Model 3 'DA's?

And if so, or either way, just where would one get a new Main Spring for the 'DA'?
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:07 PM
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I decided to go to the auction and have a look at the revolver. It was a .44 Russian and was in fair to good condition. No pitting just the small amounts of bluing left and brown patina, the bore was good and it had all matching numbers. I bid up to 850 and dropped out simply because the antiques are something I just don't collect, it sold for 975 and I'm not sure if that was a good or bad price.
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:41 PM
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Hey, that's an amazing price for a Brown D/A Russian that's for sure! Likely before the auction fees and tax?



Murph
No taxes or auction fees at that auction. It was a 5inch, the ser# 6357. It seem to be merchantly in good condition, cycled fine and locked up good. It was a little dirty and the numbers under the latch were hard to make out due to all the grease and oil build up but they were there. The bore was surprisingly good considering it fired black powder rounds during it's life.
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:35 PM
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I have a modal 686-3 with bdr5322 stamped on it. It's got a 8in barrel and its optic ready anyone have any information about it?
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:03 PM
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I have a modal 686-3 with bdr5322 stamped on it. It's got a 8in barrel and its optic ready anyone have any information about it?
Your asking this question in the wrong section of the forum it would be better asked in the 1980 and later section.
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:23 PM
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The New Model #3, Single Action mainspring is not interchangeable with the Double Action without some modification. Even then, the profile of the springs are different. One can't put a DA mainspring in a SA either.
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Old 02-17-2020, 03:32 AM
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The New Model #3, Single Action mainspring is not interchangeable with the Double Action without some modification. Even then, the profile of the springs are different. One can't put a DA mainspring in a SA either.
I did not think so...

Any idea if "New Model 3" SA Mainsprings are the same as had been used in the "Model 3" Revolvers?
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:28 AM
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Did the Colt factory try to improve of the Frontier's issues ?
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Old 02-17-2020, 11:43 AM
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Apologies for the thread drift. A Model 3 mainspring MAY work but they are different. To the best of my knowledge, the New Model #3 mainspring is slightly longer and has a very slight 'reverse' curve near where the stirrup connects.
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Old 02-17-2020, 12:31 PM
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Did the Colt factory try to improve of the Frontier's issues ?
All I can say is that Colt actually came out with their double-actions before S&W and no improvements were made until 1892, when they came out with their first swing-out cylinder. Colt had the 1877 and 1878 DAs until early 1900s.

I owned and shot the 1878 in 45 Colt revolvers quite a bit, but did not notice much difference in the operation of the solid frame Colt and the top-break 44 DAs. Obviously the design was substantially different. The 1878 Colt followed the overall design of the 45 SA Colt revolver but was substantially more bulky and somewhat awkward to shoot, plus slow to reload.
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:26 PM
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Apologies for the thread drift. A Model 3 mainspring MAY work but they are different. To the best of my knowledge, the New Model #3 mainspring is slightly longer and has a very slight 'reverse' curve near where the stirrup connects.
Okeydoke, thanks..!
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Old 02-17-2020, 04:03 PM
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Apologies for the thread drift. A Model 3 mainspring MAY work but they are different. To the best of my knowledge, the New Model #3 mainspring is slightly longer and has a very slight 'reverse' curve near where the stirrup connects.
Not a problem I was pretty much done with what I was after.
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