You wrote you HAD 1700 letters:

QUOTE >>> All backed by factory letters dating the shipment in the listed years and you can see the clear property number sequence increasing as we progress through the years until the end of the contract in 1905 with a total of approximately 1700 guns. The property number represents the number manufactured in order starting in the year 1892 and ending in 1905. Totaling 1700 guns. If you look in reference books? They claim approximately 1000 but my data clarifies the number total to be 1700 +/- 100. I can't make it more clear than that. >>>>>>> I have copies of all the factory letters backing this up. >>> END QUOTE


This isn't my show. You made statements and incremental reports of your findings, so, providing the origin and evidence is all your responsibility.

Giving specific reference is a matter of proving that reference by stating fact in place of fiction, nothing else.

PEACE, OUT !

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Sal,
Take a deep breath and re-read my post. Sectional editing is a form of concealing.
I said I have “several” factory letters.
Then I followed up with 4 examples that are All backed up with factory letters.
You really know how to twist a post into a sensational edit.

I actually have more than 4 letters. The 4 examples were just that. “Examples”

It’s your turn to post some data Sal. Do I get to edit your posts?

Murph

When in doubt, trust Snoopy.

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__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I've been thinking about this subject and initially wanted to dodge it but since we are collectors and might run into a Wells Fargo Schofield that we might be interested in purchasing to add to our collection? Especially if the price is way low? I suppose we should really touch bases on this very "Sensitive" subject.

This will be my last post on the Wells Fargo/American Express Schofield. Unless more data/ information comes in that is proven.

Some say that the Wells Fargo Schofield is one of the most "Faked" Antiques out there. I'm not sure that I agree. My data strongly suggests that Several thousand of them were altered to 5" barrels and poorly hand stamped very quickly and with very "little care" given to placing the markings uniformly on the barrel. This position also backs up that many went to Surplus "Quickly", in bulk, and in the early 1880's.

I've documented markings where the Property Stamp is in the front, back, over, under, in the Schofield patent stamp, in the groove of the barrel, etc. and they all look legit to me. Backed up by a machined and beat up muzzle crown and barrel length that measures the correct length in my survey!

See photo's of just two examples where the stamp has been "IN MY OPINION" removed and restored. Notice the "CLEAR" grind marks in the exact location of where the stamp is normally found? Also the existing stamp that looks "real" and authentic to me! But "MAY HAVE" been re-applied at some point.

We have to be very careful with our use of the terms "FAKE" or "Forgery" when we trash talk antiques without any data to back it up. This is absolutely the case with the Wells Fargo/ American Express Schofields. You might actually be trash talking an original Wells Fargo Schofield that has significant value on the open market.

Restorations are the "FINE LINE" that we often walk when any form of restoration is involved. Refinish? Non original parts installed? Newer or non matching grips? Or perhaps a weld or two?

Often it's all about perception. If you can't tell? It's orginal! That is often the position of many collectors and often market value "backs this up"!

With the data that I have collected I do believe that many of the Well's Fargo and American Express Schofields original "Property Stamps" were "PURPOSELY" removed and at some point "RE-APPLIED"...(The removal of Property Stamps is documented during that period by various agencies that directly involves the elimination of liability and accusation if the gun is used in a crime) It's up to you as a collector what you want to title it? Restoration? Fake? Forgery? One thing is certain though.....It's very possible that what you may see as non original? is still an authentic Wells Fargo or American Express Schofield. As is the case with both of the photo'd Schofields in this post. My data supports that they "ARE" original. The Property stamps? No DATA available!


Murph

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I have been reading this Thread with great interest. In my youth I had two that were stamped and nickel plated. I sold them both at the old Balto show at the 5th Reg. Armory. I think Ogan or Chernoff bought them. Were they correct, no idea. I just needed cash for a Corvette engine rebuild. It was more than enough for the engine work and a few cases of beer. Mike

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

A lot of very interesting information in this thread and I have enjoyed every word of it.
Murph here is a picture of one of my WFs where the property marking has been removed leaving ground marks. Please use it in your research if you wish.

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Petter
S&WCA 1759

Hey Petter,
Thanks for posting that photo. I recorded it in my data. *** Could you also please post a photo of the muzzle crown and also convey the exact barrel length? Thank you.
This is exactly the most common type that I recorded. The Property stamp is wiped out but the number remains. Most often the Schofield patent stamp suffers also from the intentional removal by the Express Company. It does make perfect sense when we have an open mind to the data.

You know over the years of watching auctions at large auction houses? Often you will notice an antique is listed as "Partially restored" or serial number "re-applied" or markings refreshed? etc..... What amazes me is that this "Honest" appraisal seems to generate a much higher appreciation for the antique in question. The sale price and ultimate value jumps up significantly! Almost as though the "restoration" is now excepted. Often I have been amazed at the price realized! We should start considering this position with the Schofields!

This is also true of Property stamps being removed. My primary "researched" example is the Baltimore Police Baby Russian. Where most have had the Property Stamp purposely removed by the Police Department. Yet the value is still very high on the open Market. As it should be!

I'm guilty of using the F' word many times (Fake, Forgery) but I pride myself as having an "OPEN MIND" to data and education. I will Henceforth avoid using the F' word in the future regarding the Schofield Wells Fargo and also just as important is the American Express Schofield Examples...They are legit! and hard to find.
I have documented several in this study and they fit perfectly both in Property stamp type, period of use, and matching barrel length/muzzle crown with the Wells Fargo examples.
When rarely found by collectors? I believe that they also often suffer from poor evaluations. I believe the reason they are rare today is also due to the Property Stamps purposely removed from the backstrap by the Express Company prior to sale as Surplus. So when found with the markings removed? It basically is evaluated as a "cut barrel" Schofield! When we should be taking a "VERY CLOSE" look at that backstrap!
We need to document those just as much as the Wells Fargo examples so we can establish an authenticating pattern to the stamps!

I also was very skeptical of those over the years. I actually have a Colt lightning with the early type Am.Ex.Co. stamp. I got it cheap but never took the time to research the stamp. This study helped clear the air about that antique and I'm now convinced the stamp is original, based on the data collected in this survey, the type and size of the die stamps, and the year the gun was manufactured. Just happens to be the mid 1880's which is right on the money for the early type stamps.

That really is what it's all about. Collecting and compiling information. So in my opinion, We need to stop using the F' word since it's destroying honest value on often legitimate examples.


Murph

Petter, Here is a Schofield with number stamped on barrel similar to Wells Fargo Style, and yet "something" was milled / machined off, in the area before that number, likely the "W.F & Ex Co".

THIS IS THE FIRST ONE with removed markings (apparently intentionally removed marking), I have ever seen.

Also, the finish or refinish "appears" clean enough to also have been done more recently than 1890-1900-ish.

A valid point of conjecture here: There is no way to determine "when" the grinding was performed, however, the removal and the grinding of that area "appears" as if the grind out is fresher, cleaner and more recently
worked" than the 120+ years as attested to earlier in this thread that Railway Cos removed the property marks when out of service.

Likely it is a 5", Correct ? Any markings under the stocks. I'd like to examine the your full photo shoot on this one for legitimate input and intelligent discussion of just about "when" the grinding/machine work was performed and / or if refinished again after surplus sale and appx "when".

Reasoning presented prior is that the Express companies removed the markings (stating that many or all property markings were removed by Express Cos).

This may have also, and probably more likely, been a WF & Co floating around between 1950s to 1980s when non-WF marked Schofields were worth MORE than the Wells Fargo marked.

The most unsettling observation is the haphazard manner the imprint was ground off. Machine marks hint the grinding was likely not done by a master machinist.

Although it is only one sectional photo, it is good quality. Let's see the rest to determine if it may prove more realistically reasonable that the imprint was removed sometime way, way after the Express Companies, possibly by an unscrupulous seller to suggest that perhaps it was NOT a Wells Fargo gun, while explaining away why the SN ( 1611 ) was stamped on the outside of the barrel.

Not much historical and / or research in print 40 to 70 years ago. Few, if any, really knew what an "authentic" Wells Fargo contained or did not contain as compared to the U.S. (when issued new) model. Now, (current times), it is known that front SN, stamped on the gun barrel (the one in line with a W.F. marking) but seems logical he could not grind out the front number as it is so deep. Seems any attempt at grinding out the front SN would further and more completely ruined the gun. Also, is there logical reasoning one could suggest as to "why" there would be a huge ground out gouge where the SN ( 1611 ) number is (or would have been).

Sal Raimondi

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Revisiting one of several that I recorded. See photo pointing at area where Property Stamp is normally found now has deep grind cavity. Also you will notice that it was clearly re-nickeled at some point “after”the marking was removed. No way to prove when this was done but that grind “ Cavity” certainly looks “very old” to me.

WellsFargo was an enormous company that covered multiple countries by 1890. These Schofields would have been issued everywhere they were needed. Assuming that the markings found were in many cases removed by order of the company prior to being sold and replaced with newer weapons? There would likely be no uniformity to the removal since the coverage area was World wide! Many would have escaped the grind off order which is exactly what we are seeing. More data collecting is needed. But honestly, even today there is no uniformity to operations from one office to the next. There are NO absolutes in this study! But enough data has been gathered to support that at least “ Some” of the Property Stamps were purposely removed after end of use.

** I do plan on pursuing information from many Wells Fargo Historical offices throughout the country but the offices are closed now so the research is at a stand still until this virus issue blows over.

Murph

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A fascinating Thread. If and when Gun Shows are allowed down here in Fl., Im going to keep an eye out for old grounded up Schofields.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

OK. I admit I'm a bit dense but, referring to the post and photo above by BMur, why was the area ground and the WF & Co stamped above? Was the area ground to remove the original WF & Co and, if so, the existing marks are fake. Please enlighten me.

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Mike Maher #283

I agree with that assessment Mike.

At some point the markings were re-applied.(Backwards) Should be Property Stamp first. Plus the Property Number does NOT match the serial number. Amazing work too I'd say. However, when we actually record markings and photo them? Put them in a photo file and do some comparisons side by side? Those letters in the Property stamp do not match any others that I have. They sure did a good job though( Nice straight line) and it is a real Wells Fargo Schofield by all accounts. The markings have just been re-applied as an auction house would put it...

Hey! if it's a good enough description for some Colt's I've seen....."Partly restored"...…"Markings refreshed"..... "Serial numbers re-stamped"...….and they still sell for more than my truck is worth? Maybe we should join the club!! and shelf the F' word. It's still a "REAL" Wells Fargo Schofield! The deep grind marks are part of "Authenticating" the gun! Especially if we can find a lot of them and record them. That "IS" provenance.

The more data you collect the more the pieces fit. If we find more of these, which I'm sure we will then as an example I contact a Wells Fargo Museum in say......Eureka that has a Schofield in their artifact display case. I ask them for Proof that it originated in that office and they say they have proof. They send me a photo of the gun and "Holy Cow" it has those grind marks on the barrel? That's how research works. One piece at a time.

So, when you've worked with tools since you could pick one up? That example with the deep line grind mark was done with a mechanical grinder in my opinion. It may have been (manual) or machine operated? steam, belt driven...Electric...There was electricity in 1890.
So, would you use a machine grinder to remove the markings on one gun? Maybe.....but I'm of the opinion that I would not start working on a grinder unless I had "MORE" than one little marking to remove so several guns.. If someone told me to remove all the Property Stamps on the guns for this office? I'd take them to the grinder if that number exceeded 5. So, in my opinion, there are others out there.

Murph

Sorry, Murph ... I cannot make any assessment based solely on this one photo which is very confusing, almost as it is intended to be confusing. Please (again) reference "where" you acquired this photo. Always disclose references or whatever you post has not credibility. Even after a reference is noted, sometimes it is still not granted a carte blanche that everyone should accept it as "gospel".

What is this ? The dark and light finish colors or shading ... it is on the gun or a horrible photographs. Post some additional, overall, photos of this one.

From what " I " can grasp from this photo, I would have to rate this entire specimen ... if it truly exists ... as non-credible, based on the photo (on its face) and the nondisclosure of origin of photo.

However, I am very curious to view the overall photos of this gun. That routed out area (where the WF Ex and Co + SN should be ... why is it re-stamped above ? Is there another matching routed area on the other side of the gun, e.g. for some sort of experimental accessory rail ? Post overall photos of this gun (both sides) butt where numbers are, and serial numbers of latch and barrel.

All the number may match but I'd be willing to wager there is much more to this story than this one photo is suggested to reveal (your hypotheses that it is a Express company removal of stamping) . it could very likely also be a "put together" from scrap parts.

It could also be a copy, counterfeit or Spanish (or any other Country) lower grade copy ... and possibly NOT an original S&W.

Murph, I'll ride along with the thread for awhile, solely in an attempt to add logic and sanity, but ONLY if you promise to accredit your posts, quotes and photos with legitimate reference of where you found these exemplars,. e.g. in what book, publication, magazine article, a website, etc. but ONLY if you state the specific and exact reference.

AND ... that we address one topic at a time without deviating. HERE and NOW we are are discussing the Express company removal of Property Stamps, to which the underlying factor is ... that by this virtue you stated the Wells Fargo Schofields were not rare (in your Final Comments post) you wrote >>>>>

MURPH QUOTE START: When I look at all my research notes and talley the numbers? I have almost 100 Schofields/American Express examples documented without much effort.

However, the known contracts of 1700 and 2000 guns of the 1890's? I have less than 30 documented of each known and proven contract!

That alone should tell us something about how many Early Schofields were Wells Fargo guns and American Express guns.

Several Thousand!!!! They are definitely NOT Rare! but very historic.

Murph QUOTE END.

Many times I would take the word of another "member" of the S&WCA as having to once owned, or had personally examined (were and when). e.g. ANYTHING Ed Cornett or Col. Pate would state ... I would accept without question. Col Pate and Ed Cornett have invested over 60 years each in the quest to provide factual data. Col Pate & ed "ARE", in fact, the 2 oldest and most experienced, well read, research historians who have invested many decades of time working to find and provide sincere, in-depth, research and records keeping.

Did you know that sometime in the 1950s (IIRC) ... long before Roy or S&W began providing historical records upon request, Col Charles Pate spent countless hours, months, years int he library of congress (and other sources) to provide the serial numbers of the 1000 U.S. Cavalry contract American 1st revolvers ? Now THAT is dedication. Remember at that time there was NO electronic filing system nor computers. I cannot adequately imagine how much time he spent going through boxes upon boxes of old documents, handling these delicate old paper items, one page at a time.

Before he found the U.S. Govt order and itemized shipping and / or acceptance documents (or whatever it was that he actually found) ... nobody knew for sure the serial numbers of all the 1000 U.S. Americans. He also found which ones were supplied in blue and which in nickel. Taken from old hand-written documents, ther are a few entries that seem to be duplicate serial numbers but more likely the hand written numerical characters were not legible, thus, the best interpretation of those characters were posted with footnotes.

Then, Colt had a fire back in the 1860s (IIRC) where almost all the records were destroyed. All of the data that Colt resports toay on guns prior to that fire are taken from documents that were hand written copies (and sometimes copies of the copies) of the what was legible and barely legible from the damaged and destroyed records.

If not for Roy buying the records (so motivated was Roy the only way he could get his hands on the records was to BUY the old S&W building for a day or two) we'd have NO records of the older stuff. As it was not ALL of the records. By some documents that pop up now and by Roy's own admission he acquired all of what the could find but was not the entire collection of old documents stored in the old building.

I also have reference that a number of boxes of S&W records were donated to a Library or Museum or College ( I can't recall just now but have that data notated somewhere in my servers).

Sal Raimondi, Sr.,

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Sal,
Again......POST some actual information that you actually have on file for the benefit of the forum instead of evaluating the open and honest research that I have performed. Let's see it. You go first!!! It's your turn !!!! None of this "I have boxes somewhere but I forgot where they are"....Or my favorite...I can't post this information due to fakers....

I'd like to see more data on the Property Stamps that "YOU" have acquired over the years.

It's Your turn! Then I will provide more photo's of the grinded Property Stamp of the authentic Smith and Wesson Wells Fargo gun. It's not a copy.

Murph

Re-read the conditions upon which i offered to continue on, it was a simple offer ... not subject to negotiation:

SAL'S QUOTE START:

Murph, I'll ride along with the thread for awhile, solely in an attempt to add logic and sanity, but ONLY if you promise to accredit your posts, quotes and photos with legitimate reference of where you found these exemplars,. e.g. in what book, publication, magazine article, a website, etc. but ONLY if you state the specific and exact reference.

AND ... that we address one topic at a time without deviating. HERE and NOW we are are discussing the Express company removal of Property Stamps, to which the underlying factor is ... that by this virtue you stated the Wells Fargo Schofields were not rare (in your Final Comments post) you wrote >>>>>

SAL'S QUOTE END

OMG, you're hilarious ! Do you wake up this way or do you work at it all day ?

I report my findings to only 2 sources. That's it ! I may also confide with some other tenured member whom I've had a relationship with for decades but I will NEVER (repeat NEVER) confide in you with any of my research for you to contort it into the next X-Files forum thread.

You don't know what you're talking about and fabricate your posts as you go along. It's obvious by the lack of respondents that you were able to convince very few that you actually have 1200 letters / records (you mention the number then you say you have ALL the letters) and other such fabrications.

I didn't start this and I'm not enlisting in YOUR personal issues. The majority of your posts seem to be complete fabrication and fiction. Perhaps some might start with a known fact but go quickly off on a tangent way off in left field.

Perhaps we are also at a deficiency in interpretation and definitions of English USA words. What part of "provide your source" can you not comprehend ?

It is MY mistake for thinking, perhaps, you were about to come in for a landing from your latest alien abduction to attend to the facts by notating / accrediting the origin of your exemplar(s).

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Sal,
I think for healths sake you should permanently check out of this thread. You’re on unstable ground. Time to medicate. Take deep slow breaths! There are no conditions to sharing information. You are either willing or you are not. Obviously you are not so for your healths sake? You should check out of this thread!! In fact “ Please do””!!!

Murph

"for my health's sake" ???

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Get a hold of yourself before you pop a fuse Sal. Calm down and check out! I guess I have to spell things out for you in direct Simple terms so you don’t Purposely twist them! Heaths sake is in reference to YOU doing it to yourself! YOU!!!

So Don’t go away mad. Just GO AWAY! For the benefit of this thread. You are NOT helping anyone but yourself. This is a great thread. “ YOU” are ruining it. GO AWAY!!! Threatening?? What are you talking about? You need medical attention!! Seek help and GO TAKE A NAP!

Murph

This "thread" is one you hijacked, overtook and stole from the OP asking a relatively simple and logical question.

This thread has no "benefit" other than a sorry attempt for you stroke your own imaginary ego.

Start a NEW thread, all of your own authorship. Do / say whatever you want in your new Schofield thread and I won't post a word.

Take credit for all your fine work and research on your own thread, don't rob this poor guy's thread any longer.

When you have a thread of your own authorship, you will have ALL the credit and fame all to yourself.

Best if this all goes away, including you !

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Man, what a great thread!. I have learned so much about Agency marked guns. Please, keep up the good work. You have really contributed to my knowledge. What a great Forum. Mike

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Thanks for your positive input Mike.
It’s sunny here in California so I’m going outside from my shelter in place and get some fresh air!
Here are more photos ( The best quality I could upload) of the grinded off Property Stamp on the “Authentic” Schofield Wells Fargo with re-applied Stamps. It is actually at auction right now. You can clearly see the grind cavity, the fact that it’s refinished over the grind And that the grind marking is very old.

Murph

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Jeez,

what a train wreck that turned into.

Gotta say, the condescending tone prevalent in these threads is the primary reason I no longer participate in posting pics and asking for info.

I posted a very nice period holster for an 8 in American/1st Russian a while back and received a rather snarky response from an elder member here who informed me that my holster was likely made in 1970 vs 1870...turns out it was a match for an identical holster in "Packing Iron" and was authenticated by pics thru email by the author of that fine publication. His words "most likely made by the same craftsman".

In another show and tell thread I posted pics of my original nickel 1874 2nd Model Russian and was rudely told by another "expert" that it had been refinished and was currently chrome plated. Funny that I had several very knowledgeable collector's examine it in person over the years and everyone was of the same opinion in that it was original nickle...

My point is that no one is infallible and no one should be treated as such.

As far as hoarding information, I've heard the argument that it must be done to prevent forgeries from being crafted. That's nothing but hogwash in the year 2020.......maybe that was the case in the mid 1990's when these things started to really take off as the boomers came to maturity with the disposable income to chase childhood memories by buying old West collectibles but I don't see that today. I see quite the opposite, I see a hobby in decline as the old guys who grew up watching Westerns in the 50's-70's on TV age out and are replaced by the younger generations mostly interested in import automobiles, smart phones and such, and black rifles and pistols...

Mr. Jeez, I have sometimes felt the same way. But some good healthy conversation is really quite constructive. As far as with holding data and good information is hogwash. The fakers are here and should be revealed.
Pls. come back and participate. best, Mike

__________________
Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

The only way to combatant “ Altered Guns” is to flood the Antique Market with knowledge. Ignorance feeds counterfeiting. The more we recognize counterfeit or Altered Antiques the less successful they are at selling them to unsuspecting buyers. That’s how it plays out! It’s not a good excuse to keep information hidden away to protect the market! Profit is what keeps forging going. If nobody purchases a forgery because they are educated to recognize it? The forgery market dies!

The Simple truth is the vast majority of Altered guns are easily recognizable if you do your homework and have knowledge to recognize alterations.
That’s what this thread is all about. Gathering data. It’s because of this data “ Shared” that the grinded off Property Stamp and re-applied stamp now becomes easily recognized by All that are following this thread.
Those that are so good that you can’t tell? Are most often too expensive for you to afford anyway! The best of the best counterfeiting is performed on the most expensive stuff! Common sense dictates! If someone is really good at forgery? They aren’t going to make $1 dollar bills!
That’s why I personally have never purchased high grade engraved guns. “ Extremely difficult “ to authenticate! And the best forgers/ engravers do their best work for big $$$$$$

Applying this to Wells Fargo and American Express Schofield Guns? The more we know the better.
Look “ Closely” at the re-applied line stamp on this grinded off Wells Fargo. It’s obvious if you compare the letters on known examples with the letters on this example.
It’s not easy to match original stamps on antique guns!
Lazer stamps also do not match antique Dies so you simply must look closely and with a critical eye.




Murph

Please let this thread DIE NOW!!!!!!!! My guess is that the OP is probably sorry about opening the thread in the first place.

Let's see 29 posts by BMur, many replied to immediately by guess who - BMur. Only 15 by model3sw so the winner is obvious!!! Problem is that no one will ever read all this.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I believe the OP's question has been asked and answered. Thread closed.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220