Is there anyone who will authenticate a Wells Fargo stamped 1st Model Schofield. Plenty of posts out there but at the end of the day it would be good to have the example that has come into my possession to get a thorough review by an expert. Any contact info appreciated if available.

Post a few photos and maybe we can help. I'd recommend Model 3 on this forum.

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Mike Maher #283

I would think such a gun would have already been lettered if not approach with skepticism, especially given what one such as this might cost.

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Randy

Post some clearly focused photos here and send me an EMAIL from the connection link in this forum. Sal Raimondi, Sr. AKA MODEL3SW

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I've attached pictures. Have not taken delivery yet but when I do I can post better ones. Understand comment regards letter. I think it's a pretty sure bet the 1st Model Schofield is correct. I am taking the gun from someone I trust and at least this person believes it's authentic. All serial number (2438) and correct inspector marks for 1st Model in right places. I have yet to inspect rear barrel, catch and catch screw which I will when gun arrives. US on the toe of butt. Grips are numbered to gun. Gang stamp of WF & COS EX is in straight line with W and F being marked up into the Schofield patent so a bit hard to see. With all of that my interest is validity of Wells Fargo story and I don't think a letter will help with that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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The museum where I work as a volunteer firearms historian has a similar Schofield that was validated as a Wells Fargo issue based on pictures I posted on this forum. I think you will get valuable input here. I agree a letter will not confirm that it's a Wells Fargo gun although it may provide other good information.

I'd need to see this one, in hand and partially dismantle. I'm not getting all warm and fuzzy about the WF and Cos stamp being so dead on top of the S&W roll marks. While many are a tad off and most a bit slanted, I've never encountered one this bad ... meaning so dead on top of the S&W stamp. I am NOT stating it is a fake nor an authentic WF. Don't have enough data yet. I'd have to check internal parts.

While John Hall was an impeccable collector, he's gone over 20 years. I cannot imagine he'd pass up purchasing one with a bad stamp if he paid a lesser price for it. Even the bad stamped and fake WF marks Schofileds have a value, too. Just not anything near the value of the authentic Wells Fargo.

If it comes down to it, Ed Cornett can offer some valuable input from his records of 80+ yeasr but he's retired and donated his records. Then Col. Chas. Pate (US Army retired and noted author) has more records of Model 3s in all variations inspected than any other collector, ever.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

None of the WF&Co guns letter, they were purchased by Wells Fargo as used guns.

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GO NAVY!

I'll try to get you a picture of mine. There are a lot of fakes. I have records of Schofields that showed up at gun shows later as WF&Co that weren't the first time. I'm sure you're aware of that.

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GO NAVY!

Hopefully it is just as you think, a legitimate model because its so nice on its face, WF and all else is a big plus.

Nice grab.

Once you have it in hand can you please also take a careful measurement of the barrel length? Also provide a photo of the muzzle crown.

Murph

Thanks for all the feedback. I will receive the revolver mid March and will post more pictures at that time. I'm also curious to see what the crown looks like.

Charles Pate is THE expert when it comes to the Wells Fargo Models. His book about the American Model is an essential reference work on the subject.

I would do a helluva lot of research before I wrote a check.

Yes, that is absolutely correct. Except my SN 1080 that letters it was sent back to the factory in July 1945 to have the finish changed to nickel. At that time the barrel had already been cut to 5" and stamped with Wells Fargo. (almost exact quote on letter).

That was an outstanding and unique surprise to the letter from Roy Jinks. Wells Fargo stamped fakes didn't start to show up until the 1980s in what seemed to be a large quantity. Before 1980s a "Wells Fargo" marked Schofield was worth LESS than the non-marked 5". In the 1980s the prices evened out, then into the 1990s the Wells Fargo prices far surpassed the non-marked 5" models.

The complete edit on the Schofields and most Model 3 variations in the Blue Book of Gun Values are my edits. There sure ARE more fake Wells Fargo marked Schofields than genuine Wells Fargo guns, some of the fakes are quite impressive.

Even after inspection ... a high quality fake is tough to distinguish from a genuine. It involves opening and inspected the revolvers and years of experience wherein many genuine Wells Fargos were within certain serial number ranges, it seems. Not that an odd one can't be correct, too, those known in the 800s to 1200s SN range (appx) seem to be where the majority (but not all) of the genuine Wells Fargos are found.

Hope that adds some depth to everyone's research.

Sal Raimondi, Sr. (MODEL3SW)

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Hey Sal, your post brings up a question. Is there anyone or any company out there that authenticates vintage revolvers? I am talking about letters of provenience that are used widely in other collecting circles? Never ran across anyone offering this type of service for firearms?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

It would be VERY difficult for a company to authenticate revolvers, all makes and models. There are just too many revolvers out there for any one individual to be able to authenticate and be aware of all the variations and model changes. There are individuals who authenticate a subset of certain types of revolvers. I'm sure there are others out there for specific models that I am not aware of, but they might be few and far between.

The one that comes to mind is John Kopec and his authentication service for Colt Cavalry and Artillery Model revolvers only: John A. Kopec

Interestingly in the S&W catalog the three examples of believed authentic guns have markings 1, 3420 and 5549. As Sal states there is a cluster in a set range but others are out there. If ultimate validation comes from Wells Fargo inspector marks or a list of known serial numbers it would be good to have those resources available to the S&W collector community . John Kopec is a good resource in that regard for the Colt collectors as mentioned.

This is a great Historical Subject. I think that Sals gun is standing on rock solid ground with the Factory letter backing it up.

So using Sal's gun as a foundation? My data base has 47 Model 1 Schofields with the exact same barrel "Wells Fargo" stamp as Sals from Serial number 1 to Serial number 1897. See photo 1.

That's the only stamp that in my opinion is "Confirmed" Authentic.

I'm not saying others are not? I'm only saying the stamp is backed up by "Solid Evidence" and Data.

Ed (Opec) also confirmed that via a letter from Robert Chandler( Wells Fargo Historian) to Jim Supica that this barrel marking is Post August 1, 1898.

The Schofield became surplus after 1880 (after only 5 years of service?) but that's not entirely accurate. Some did but many remained in service throughout the Indian Wars and the 1898 Spanish American War. In fact there are unit records that confirm they were still in service after 1900.

So the likelihood of "Batches" being sold as Surplus over a 25 year period is not only high? It's supported historically. This position supporting the likelihood of multiple barrel Well's Fargo Stamps.... I just believe that Early Stamps (PHOTO 2 and 3) should be much scarcer than say Sal's example. But since they are the easiest to fake? That's why so many are seen.

Trying to authenticate them is going to be very difficult without more solid records.

You can see in photo 2 and 3 that the so-called line stamp is not straight. So, often collectors are suspect but for the life of me they look legit. Especially photo 2 with the worn stamp? I mean that looks real to me? but more research is needed. Both of these guns sold for near or a little more than $6,000! So somebody believed them to be legit!

One more comment on "EXPRESS" guns? It's documented that the vast majority (not all but most) were ordered by EXPRESS companies like American, US, Railway, etc......very late in the 1890's to early 1900's. Factory marked examples and orders of over 1200-1500 38 cal topbreaks as an example were not uncommon for various EXPRESS companies. I have several topbreak 38 cal Smith & Wessons of various models that letter as EXPRESS guns and are so marked. My point being that they were ordered late in the 1800's and very large orders placed! This doesn't include large orders of Colt lightnings and Iver Johnsons that are confirmed. 800-1200 units in the separate orders placed. This data just proves that "many" were ordered and are authentic via research confirmation and Factory documents. Add them up and you come up with literally thousands of "Factory Ordered" EXPRESS GUNS! That doesn't include guns ordered directly from Distributors!

So I think that there were many Wells Fargo Schofields. How many? Research in progress. What makes it extremely difficult are these quality fakes that have been out for several decades now. I actually bought a fake Wells Fargo Schofield several years ago...Why? It was $900.... So I figured, it's a Real Schofield, all matching, action perfect, clear markings....It's worth it!! I've shot it too...It's a wonderful Antique Smith!

Murph

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Gary, Will answer a few questions in the parameters of this response.

Years back an appraisal or inspection letter was 90%+of the time for insurance purposes. Have I seen inflated appraisals, YES ! Usually these were written by one of the bigger selling antique dealers, e.g. Carlson, Condon. Norm Flayderman was about the most respected letter you could get ... IF he wanted to do it for you. If you purchased it from him, no charge. if not, something rather reasonable cost. For Colt Black Powder, Herb Glass, and a few others, all equally qualified, I feel but some others too, that would mean nothing to me.

On the Model 3 variations, I "believe" Roy Double was either "the" first to dive deeply into the Model 3s. He was an innovator. He was the most researched and honorable and I "think" the first collector to make a serious study of the Model 3 variations.

Col. Charles Pate (US Army Retired) is another, highly qualified expert and author, even more studied than Roy Jinks in certain areas. Col. Pate has been a mentor to me for over 30 years (going back to the dark ages of pre-internet). In the very beginning I though that Col Pate's only interest was in the U.S. Cavalry / 1000 / S&W Americans. A few years later I learned he kept track of ALL U.S. issue revolvers and ALL Model 3 variations.

Ed Cornett has been like a father to me for many decades. I cannot find enough nice words to say about Ed. Ed is a NO BS guy. Ed had Wells Fargo records from "one" of the Wells Fargo armorers facilities which he recently donated I think to the S&WHF.

Personally ... sometimes Ed and Charlie Pate are much more forgiving than I would be as an appraiser and licensed auction house owner, I'm liable if I screw up on an assessment. Thus, there is the quintessential "back door" with words as "appears to be, similar to other known examples", and assessment that because of a variety of items, the author of the letter either feels it to either have more features of a "suspicious" Wells Fargo than known genuine Wells Fargo examples. However, if I don't like it ... you'll know it in no uncertain terms.

A good "gentleman" appraiser would very rarely use the word "FAKE" even though in all likelihood, he may believe it to be an out and out fake. However, even the fakes have a value usually much less a value than an unmarked specimen, after all, it is STILL a real Schofield just NOT a convincing REAL Wells Fargo.

About 15 years ago, I confided in a collector under the promise that he never tell some of my personal secrets. Well, some of those secrets are now in Wikipedia which is like giving instruction manuals to a devious person on how to more successfully make a convincing Wells Fargo Schofield fake (to pass as genuine) from one that was not so previously marked.

Ed puts forth a good point of conjecture being there were more than one Wells Fargo armorer and more than one locations. Likely more than one stamp.

Personally, I don;t like the floating W or F. I like the entire phrase to be on one line stamp, in line, even if stamped at a slight angle. The SN restamped on the side ahead of the WF & cos stamp all seem to be the same or very similar but not identical, again, on one line.

About 25 years ago there was an auction I caught wind of in the State of Washington or Oregon or somewhere up there that included gunsmith tools with a W.F & Cos. stamp. I caught wind later on that a S&W collector-dealer-member purchased that stamp. I will not say who because it is hearsay and not provable but we ALL KNOW of certain guys that make it part of their regular business of enhancing more common S&Ws to magically transform them to "RARE" S&Ws. We mentioned one of them several months back in another post on this same subject of fakes and unscrupulous dealers/sellers.

I know, as a fact and by his own admission (he bragged about it), another member (now deceased) that kept dragging poor Charles Duffy out of retirement to keep doing revolving rifles for him. So good was Charles Duffy's standard refinish it could easily pass for an original. Charles Duffy, himself, would not have ever refinished an old S&W with intent to deceive anyone. It was third parties using Charles's work that was so fine, the person who was the seller had to artificially age the Revolving Rifles because they were TOO nice.

I suspect today there are lesser known gunsmiths that do impeccable quality work and restorations that are invisible. When I did restorative repairs to fine autos, European imports and vintage collector cars, my "buy line" was ... "Restorative Repairs and Refinishing of all fine automobiles", stating that when I was done, if someone could tell where it had been repaired and/or exactly what I repaired ... I'd give them a refund. I once had a Rolls Royce dealer examine a RR I had just repaired for over an hour ... saying OK, I give up ... where was it repaired ?

I surmise there are still true craftsman out there that do the same with collectible firearms as I could do with any high end automobile. It's usually not the craftsman that's trying to pass it off as original but rather, someone who hired him to repair it.

Perhaps I went a little off track here but not much. It makes my blood boil when sellers are less than truthful and makes me irate when they are just out and out scamsters.

I love a good "story" that comes with an old S&W but only if it's true. I can tell you who I purchased any of my oldies from and everything I factually know about it. I'll also tell you what I suspect. e.g. if I think the hammer had been changes or other things added after the factory, refinish etc.

Then don't get me started on shill bidders ... that's where I really lose it.

Please don't hesitate to ask for clarification or something I may have jumped over while on this partial rage of oratory above.

MRCVS (Ian) acquainted me with John Kopec on the Colt SAAs. I'm impressed !! With all the SAA fake US guns out there (anyone remember Tom Haas ?). I knew a collector from my club ... the centerpiece of his display for over 20 years was a US, SAA he had purchased from Tom Haas decades back. Back around 2000 or so, a few collectors got together with micrometers and 40x magnification devices to determine Tom Haas's fakes were so good, they were near impossible to tell except by one or 2 small features, as stated ... so Tom, Himself, could tell if it was one of his or not.

After 20 years of owning it, he found out it was a fake US SAA. He was sick when the private collectors' examination board of Colt collectors proved it to him and I don't think he ever got over it.


All the best, Sal Raimondi

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

You pay your money, you takes your ride!

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Murph,

Barrel length 5 1/16" Photo of muzzle attached.

Mark

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The ones I have in my data base that are supported have the 5 1/16” to 5 1/8” barrel with a clear muzzle crown like yours.
Please also post any markings under the grips on the grip frame, under the barrel and anything out of the ordinary inspector marks for a more thorough evaluation from the senior members.

Thanks Mark and Congrats on receiving your Smith & Wesson Wells Fargo collectable. Thanks also for providing the forum with this information for records and authentication purposes.

Murph

Thanks Murph. Once I finish stripping it down I will post some additional info. What I ask is that if anyone can comment on the serial number 2438 and whether it is on or not on any known list it would be appreciated. That's not something I will be able to surmise from inspecting this gun.

Mark,
I'm surprised no one has chimed in on the list?
I'm not aware that one exists. My research is ongoing. It's possible that a partial list exists with The Railway Express Agency that purchased the bulk of Wells Fargo guns in 1918 with their acquisition of the Wells Fargo Express Company and property that is well documented.

There are several auction letters out there that contain information about guns that they bought from Wells Fargo and had detailed records for many years. I've seen letters from the 1960's that authenticate guns obtained in 1918 from Wells Fargo.

Problem being that they would not contain dates that Wells Fargo obtained the guns.
I learn something new every day it seems. Adding more to my data base. Also finding many more sources of information that seem promising.

Especially on the "EXPRESS" guns from factory ledgers(factory letter) research. I believe that the documented information contained in the Colt and Smith & Wesson archives regarding shipping information, factory markings, persons of interest, who received the guns, who ordered the guns, how many were shipped, a definite pattern of ordering, and where they ended up is critical to evaluating the Schofields. Even though there are no factory records on the Schofields other than issued to Springfield Armory in the mid 1870's? This pattern can not be ignored. There would be no reason to deviate from this pattern "JUST for the Schofields".

We can most definitely cross reference very distinct patterns followed by American Express and Wells Fargo Agents when ordering guns from the factory after 1892. Before this time the vast majority were ordered directly from the Major Distributor.

Even Mr. Jinks clearly mentions that in several factory letters that I have read on Smith & Wesson 38's ordered in the early 1890's from the factory by Agents representing the Express Companies.

That part is proven and also throws another wrench into the Schofield Wells Fargo 45's.... Suggesting that a large portion were purchased prior to 1892. I firmly believe this to be true.

The more information I confirm from factory letters the more odd' the Schofields are. They actually make little sense from a timeline perspective. I've extended the late W.F. & CO. EX. barrel stamp to serial number 3500 in the model 1. Also, if you follow the methods used by Company Purchasers/Agents?

They consistently ordered specific amounts of guns "Monthly" that "NEVER" exceeded 50 guns per order over a 25 year documented period!!!! So a bulk order of Schofields of over 50 guns per order at any time is "extremely unlikely". This information follows a long term "fill as needed" pattern to "ALL" Express guns from the late 1880's until about 1917.

A very distinct pattern is developing in my data that supports a very steady "HUGE" order of EXPRESS guns over very long periods of time. In some cases 1700 guns and 1900 guns over a 20 year period. That only accounts for a small percentage! It's documented!

Obviously the Surplus Schofields would be no exception to this rule. What seems extremely difficult is dating them. I'm working on it though. Given the fact that they were considered Surplus after 1880 one can suggest strongly that a steady supply was available for both the Major Distributor and EXPRESS agents assigned to supply the demand over a very long period of time. I'm a believer in that theory.
I'm also going to stick my neck out here but I honestly don't believe that a "Huge" stock of them became suddenly available after the Spanish American War. That position does not fit in the data that I have collected.
I personally feel that the biggest oddity regarding the Schofield Wells Fargo variation is the unorthodox barrel stamps. I mean honestly....They make ZERO sense. Even the early 1890 Distributor Stamps on EXPRESS guns of 38 caliber and 45 Colt caliber have very large letters stamped on the back strap or butt of the gun.....These barrel stamps are off the hook odd!

Murph

I’ve found a ton more information on Wells Fargo Express Co. Also many other Express companies that purchased Cartridge revolvers from the Late 1870’s up to the 1930’s.

One thing regarding the Schofields that is a totally unsupported concept? Dating them by barrel Stamp? There is zero proof that you can date them by CO’S vs CO on the Wells Fargo Barrel stamp.

When we look at the origin of Wells Fargo Express Co. It began in San Francisco in 1852 as “ Wells Fargo & Co.” not CO’s.
I’ve found dozens of period photos that clearly show Wells Fargo and Company Express on office signs, Stage coaches, strong boxes, letters, checks, shot guns, leather satchels, money orders, bank receipts, and most importantly early Distributor purchased Colt Lightning’s that date to the late 1870’s and early 1880’s. Even one as late as 1892 having a very small stamp like is seen on the Schofield barrel. The stamp depicts : WELLS FARGO & CO. NOT CO’s!

So basically I’m finding only strong evidence that these Wells Fargo Surplus Schofields were purchased by Agents representing Wells Fargo & Co. Express Primarily “ Prior” to 1890!

I’ve even found Colts that are backed by Factory Letters having a factory stamped: W.F.& Co. ( Not CO’s) on the backstrap initially, then post 1895 on the butt.

I’ve always believed these were early Cartridge guns for Wells Fargo. Post 1898 makes Zero sense for the Surplus Schofields.

Murph

Murph,
Thank you for the research into this and for sharing your information.
Petter

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Petter
S&WCA 1759

Thanks Peter,
This subject is a lot of fun to research. I’ve got more information to post but I’m waiting on correspondence from a few Wells Fargo Historians first.
Unfortunately Dr. Robert Chandler The Wells Fargo Historian that communicated with members has Passed away. He died last year unfortunately. So I’m going through 3 other Wells Fargo Historians to see if any records exist.


Murph

I'd like to input the information that I have researched but it's a ton so I'll just punch it in gradually over the next few days.
I'd just like to start by saying that the Smith & Wesson Historical Department got it right. It seems when we get ourselves into trouble is when we input information from General Historians that do not specialize in firearms research. I'm not trying to discount any information from Wells Fargo? but they most definitely do not specialize in firearms research and the information that they provide is honestly focused on the Company's culture and Policies over the years.
So basically All the information that I've found backs up the Historical Department from Smith and Wesson and the 60 plus years that they have been at it.
So, one final input on the Co's vs Co on the Wells Fargo Schofield stamp? Prior to 1898 when the Company implemented a Streamline "Wells Fargo & Company Express"....there was no set company Standard...It was ALL over the place based on what part of the country and what office you happened to be referring to. Thousands of them after 1870!
So we need to put that to rest. You most definitely can not date a Wells Fargo Schofield based only on the Stamp on the barrel having a Co's vs Co.

See very early photo's of Wells Fargo & Co pre 1880!

Also, notice in the last photo of the Company broadsheet? Wells Fargo & Co Express from 1870 was worth( total capitol) 10 Million dollars! An enormous company by 1870!! Just as a comparison? The Bacon Arms company and their neighbors The Hood firearms Company of Norwich Ct. were listed as having a total Capitol of $25,000 and $26,000 in 1875!

Murph

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Mr. Jinks lists the Schofield revolver being sold as surplus beginning in 1880. The model 1 manufactured for only one year in 1875 and the Model 2 until approx. 1878.

So the product line was basically terminated in 1878. When Wells Fargo purchased the Surplus Schofields in bulk they were still relatively new.

However, when we follow an accurate timeline using the Major Distributors as a guide we see the Schofields becoming quickly obsolete approximately 10 years later. This is the Standard for any firearm manufactured throughout history that has been discontinued. Parts become scarce to none available approximately 10 years after termination of the product line.

This also supports that the bulk of the Schofields were purchased early in the 1880's by not only Wells Fargo but American Express as well. I found a lot of evidence that they also purchased Surplus Schofields.

So again the Real problem with the position that the Schofields remained in the Express Service into the 1890s is that "Parts" were no longer available on the open market since the product line had being terminated 15 years prior.

As an example: In the 1892 "Major" Distributor catalog for Schovering, Daly & Gales we see "NO PARTS" listed for the 45 Schofield. All other Smith & Wessons show a complete parts list for all revolvers manufactured at that time.

Also, the cartridges became extremely expensive in the late 1880's and by the early 1890's the 45 S&W round is no longer listed available in my Distributor Catalogs.

So the Schofield revolver was basically an obsolete revolver by 1890 having no factory replacement parts or ammunition readily available and therefore would not be a viable Agent field service revolver by that time. It's as simple as that!

Wells Fargo would have used the guns in the field during a period in the Old West that was still quite rough( the early 1880's) and the guns would have suffered from very hard conditions for approximately a 10 year period. At which point they were basically worn out and obsolete. The market data supports this position. In fact "all" the data that I have found supports this position.

So basically the information and data collected supports that Wells Fargo & Co Express and also American Express Co. basically unloaded the bulk of the Schofields prior to 1890 as no longer serviceable revolvers and replaced them in a very short period of time with .38 caliber revolvers of various makes and models. Also clearly documented by 1890 with consistent and detailed factory letters that I have collected.
These letters also depict a very clear and distinct pattern used by agents representing the Express Companies that streamlined purchases from initially the Major Distributors and finally directly from the gun manufacturers in the early to mid 1890’s. All proven from factory recorded data.



Murph

Murph,
Again thank you for researching this and for sharing your findings.
In addition to the Co's vs Co, it's also the three different sizes in the serial number markings. The small size being about the same size as the company name abbreviations and the most common. The medium size is supposedly from the Chicago office and the large size is rare. In your research have you leaned anything more about number sizing?

__________________
Petter
S&WCA 1759

I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I just wanted to thank everyone, especially Murph, for all the outstanding information that's being shared. As someone who loves history, the Old West, and the use of firearms in the Old West, this particular subject is really fascinating.

Now I'm afraid that I'm going to be driven to go out and get an old Schofield! Oh-no!!

It is a neat old revolver whether it is a real Wells Fargo or not. I know that makes a lot of difference in the value, but if you never intend to sell it, does it really matter. If I could afford it, I would be happy to have it no matter what.
I was just wondering, would serial number one be worth more or less if it wasn’t stamped Wells Fargo? I guess it doesn’t matter since it is probably priceless anyway.
While I am day dreaming about what if, what if the army stuck with the Model Three revolvers they purchased before the Colt SAA? What if the army had adopted the Russian Model with its inside lubricated cartridge instead of the Colt 45? Would that have made a difference for the troops at the Little Bighorn? Would it have influenced the later decision to transition to a semi-auto pistol? We know the cavalry was not anxious to adopt the 1911. The 1909 and 1917 revolvers didn’t give up much to the 1911. Since the military usually insisted the 1911 be carried with an empty chamber, it only carried 7 rounds compared to 6 in the revolver. It was slower to get into action, plus it required both hands one of which was supposed to be controlling the horse. The 1917 was just about as fast to reload as the 1911 especially if they had figured out how to make a full moon clips instead of the half moon. What if they had figured out how to make the 1917 work with rimmed 45 ammo (Colt or S&W) as well as moon clips like the Governor does today?

Hey Boarderboss, now would be a good time to buy I'd say since the market is down...Might find one cheap!

Peter,
The subject of Company stamps is in no way a small one. I'm trying to consolidate the subject but it's difficult.
Lets begin by recognizing the correct term that has been given to the various Express Stamps from the Historical Department and Mr. Jinks.
In several letters that I have read Mr. Jinks calls the stamps "PROPERTY STAMPS" and the numbers "PROPERTY NUMBERS" so I'd like to follow that lead.

Wells Fargo and American Express both purchased the Schofields. I've also cross referenced the early 38 Colt lightning Property stamps from both companies...See photo 1 and 2...Notice also the Wells Fargo & Co stamp on the backstrap....NOT Co's! The 38 Colt lightning in photo 1 is lettered from the Railway Express Agency( successor to Wells Fargo & Co Express) that confirms it was a Wells Fargo owned Express gun. It also has a Colt factory letter that proves it was shipped through the correct and known Chicago agency "Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett" in 1878! They were a "HUGE" Express agency gun relay point in history. Documented in several factory letters! The 38 Colt lightning is also an excellent reference gun since it is documented from the advent of production in 1877 to the end in 1909 as being an Express gun for several outfits!

The earliest Property Stamps were stamped by the relevant Express Agency. Photo's 1&2. With NO property number stamp. Just the Express Company Property stamp. Those date to the late 1870's to very early 1880's. I've done no research before cartridge firearms. Only because the records are basically non existent. Not much to go on.
After about 1880 they began stamping a property number next to the property stamp. Also in small letters and numbers "Hand stamped".

So based on that information alone the earliest Schofields that have Wells Fargo property stamps and small property numbers are the earliest guns. Likely from late 1880-1882. See photo 3. These property numbers as you know match the serial number.

The next sequence I documented is the medium size Property number. Unfortunately, I have not been able to cross reference date that variation. I've seen and documented medium sized property numbers from the mid 1880's (based on serial number dating) on the colt lightning backstraps but I have no factory historical reference on those as yet.

It's possible that what we are seeing on the Schofields is just a different office from another location that used a larger stamp at the same or around the same time. The early to mid 1880's.

I've found also that the Property name Wells Fargo & Co's Express was more often used in the Mid-West States...You can find it most anywhere but per capita? The Mid-West predominantly used that Company title with the Co's. The far West used Co. So most of the earliest Schofields likely went to the front lines in California, Nevada, etc. Where all the Express robberies were taking place. Makes perfect sense!

So the large Property number would also fall in the same timeframe. Likely the latest Property number stamp but we are only talking a few years. All taking place way before 1890 and at various locations, stations, etc throughout the WEST...

Remember again that the vast majority of the robberies and unlawful activity is documented as taking place in "The Wild West"....So West of the Santa Fe trail after being shipped through the Chicago office...This represents the "Bulk" of the guns...Not all but the Bulk of them. There are always exceptions.

I've found some Express guns that were shipped directly to San Francisco via Colt factory letter. All consistently stamped with the Property Stamp: WELLS FARGO & Co. EXPRESS or just Wells Fargo & Co, in some instances just W.F. & Co. in small to medium sized letters. With all these guns shipped in the 1880's. This is just further Rock Solid proof that you can't date the Schofields by Co vs Co's.

All of the Company Property Stamps and Property number research is very consistent and well documented beginning in the early 1890's. I'll post that next and you will "Clearly" see the pattern that is undeniable and has absolutely nothing in common with the Early Schofield Wells Fargo guns of the 1880's.

Murph

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Lets begin again with the Smith & Wesson Historical Department where Mr. Jinks states: "Hartley & Graham purchased large quantities of the 38cal Top break revolvers and supplied American Express Co in the early 1890's prior to the Express Company ordering them directly from the factory".
My research supports that these large quantities of 38 caliber top break Smith & Wesson revolvers "REPLACED" the now aged and obsolete Schofield Revolvers of the 1880's.
This also gives us an idea of how many Schofields were in the field for Wells Fargo and American Express Co. The initial volume of new 38's suggests well over a thousand at least.

See photo 1 where initially the Agents representing the Express Company's purchased very large quantities of 38's and had the Major Distributor Engrave the backstrap with Their Property Name and Property number. This marks the end of Wells Fargo and American Express stamping the guns. US Express and Pacific Express would continue stamping their guns into the mid 1890's. However, those stamps would also be much larger in font. "HUGE" in some cases!

This represents the beginning of the modern streamline purchasing process. Initially purchasing from the Distributor, having them mark the guns. Then a change to Purchasing directly from the factory and having the factory stamp/engrave the guns in the early 1890's. This process is followed by my research until the 1930's. At no time did the Express Company's go back to stamping their guns once they started purchasing large volumes of new guns from the Major Distributor beginning in approximately 1887.

So again, once this procedure started, there is no evidence that they ever went back. Photo two shows a "Factory" marked Smith and Wesson 38 topbreak. This contract lasted from 1892-1905 totaling approximately 1700 guns in 38 caliber.
The Wells Fargo Express guns now show a very distinct stamp on initially the backstrap and eventually moved to the butt: W.F.& Co. Notice also the elimination of Express in the property name?
American Express guns were stamped Am. EX. Co. followed by a property number until approximately 1909.

So we can clearly see that the Schofields had no place in the 1890's. They were not only obsolete weapons but the stamps do not in any way resemble the 1890's Property and Property number stamps. Had they made it to the 1890's? The property and property number stamps would have changed!! They would have been moved to the back strap and/or butt. Without question! Just like the Colt lightning Property stamp changed over the years of service in the Express division. From small letters to medium letters and numbers. Then large cursive letters and numbers. We saw none of this occurring with the Early Schofields! The property stamps remained very small and the property numbers remained individually "hand stamped". They never saw Distributors stamping the guns in a clean, engraved, large cursive manor! Lets also input the Express Company's obvious preference in ordering the 38 caliber small framed weapons by a "HUGE" margin.

There were some 44 WCF DA Colt Frontiers that letter and 45 Colt SAA that also letter but they represented a very small number. Huge volumes by Huge I mean "MANY THOUSANDS" of 38 caliber revolvers over the next 40 years covered in my research were purchased.

My last input on the Express guns will be on "Records"

Murph

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Very interesting thread with a lot of good info.

To the OP, it looks like a very nice pistol regardless of the WF markings.

There was a pretty interesting discussion about 2 yrs ago regarding these surplus pistols.

How much are we knocking a FACTORY refinished antique revolver?

Scroll down to post #38 and #39.

To me the OP's pistol looks like its wearing its original blue finish and this would refute the statement that all surplus pistols were refinished prior to sale to the public.

Its a shame there are so many dubious examples floating around and its for this reason that when I was looking to buy a Schofield I stayed away from the WF pistols.

Murph,

I have one of the S&W DA 38 in my collection, it's a 4th model and marked Am. Ex. Co. 1629. From what I understand, is that it is a relatively high property number. It was shipped from the S&W factory on May 11, 1905.
I thought you might find this factory letter interesting. It verifies the shipment to American Express Co., Springfield MA, and illuminates the fact that it was American Express policy at that time to have their revolvers shipped to the local office in Springfield MA, who would then handle distribution of the handguns to their various agencies and widespread locations.

Petter

__________________
Petter
S&WCA 1759

Petter,
Thanks very kindly for sharing with the forum. I hope you don't mind I added that information to my data. I have several on this model recorded.
Other factory letters and recorded data confirm a person of interest by the name of C.E. Seaton. He was a purchasing agent for American Express Co from the late 1880's until my last recorded data about 1909. This specific 38 Smith & Wesson topbreak contract beginning in about 1892 and ending in 1905 with very close to 1700 guns shipped from the factory....Yours would be one of the last shipped in that contract.
Anyway, the shipping address is often not listed in the factory ledger. Often the buyers address in Springfield is listed as the shipping address. That is actually the location of the American Express office. Which is correct but my research proves that they were actually authorized to be shipped to WM Read & Sons of Boston, Mass by the Agent representing the Express company. They were a significant Distributor of American Express guns. From there many but not all would be shipped to Chicago as a "HUGE" relay point for Express guns moving further West to supply Agents in "The Wild West".

All of this is documented. I also confirmed an "Identical" contract of 38cal "Colt Lightnings" under the exact same conditions. Data proves the purchaser was the agent C.E. Seaton representing American Express Co. He is also listed as a buyer and head of Supply Department.
However, the exact same source claims that he was only the buyer. He might have changed titles throughout his tenure. He authorized the guns to be Shipped to the exact same distributor in Boston. W.M. Read & Sons and in turn using them to ship at least some of the large order of 38's to Chicago for Distribution. This was the process used in the 1890's. A very modernized and efficient method of moving guns safely and securely about the country. They used a similar process in the 1870's and 1880's but it was in no way as efficient. Too much info to post.

That same large contract of Lightnings almost mimics the Smith & Wesson 38 top break contract. Beginning in 1892 and ended with the termination of the lighting model manufacture in 1909. Almost 2000 guns were in that contract.

I actually have a ton more information on other contracts that amount to many thousands of guns but its too lengthy....I'm putting folks to sleep I'm sure but this information is very important to evaluating the Schofields. It proves "Methods Used" in that timeframe. Those Methods are very important to evaluating what was going on at that time in the industry. It clears the air when no records are available for the subject of interest and paints a very readable picture of how Agents representing the Express Company's operated.
When we plug the Schofields into these early 1890's contracts they simply don't fit. They only fit like a glove in the early 1880's. I don't claim to be any sort of an expert. I'm only a student that "Does his Homework".

Murph

I wonder if that's a Schofield in that agents holster? Early Photo.
Definitely too big for a Small frame 38 so???


Murph

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I have enough information now to input Part 1 of "Records".
A quick History of the End of Wells Fargo & Co. Express occurred in 1918 by order of the President of the United States. Woodrow Wilson ordered that the Private sector of the Express business, that primarily by that time involved the Railroad to ship goods Express, to be consolidated for the good of the country during time of war.
The result was the total elimination of the Private sector and the consolidation of all Express Companies into a Public Express Company controlled by the Government. This included the immediate elimination of the following private Express Companies;

Adams & Co.
American Express Co.
Southern Express Co.
Wells Fargo & Co. Express

This marked the end of those companies involvement in the Express business and the creation of:

The American Railway Express Company.( Government controlled) check out extremely rare photo WWI Era of The American Railway Express with WWI Military in uniform next to Railway office!

It is documented that those companies that were basically dissolved by the U.S. Government were required to "turn over property and guns" to the newly created Public Express Company.
This is documented.

After the war an association of Railroads was created and eventually bought out American Railway Express Co. in 1929 and formed the new Company: Railway Express Agency.(REA)

This company lasted until 1975 at which point they went bankrupt for various reasons.

Now to the records....What apparently happened is in 1918 the guns that were surrendered by the various Express companies were recorded by the Government controlled American Railway Express Co. They were inventoried and recorded. Those were NOT Wells Fargo Records! I found no evidence that Wells Fargo turned over their records.
New records were established in 1918 that simply recorded which company surrendered what guns, specific model, and serial number.
For many years The REA would letter guns for collectors up until about 1969 was the latest letter I could find. See photo 1.

When REA went bankrupt their records went to the Smithsonian. Those records in part are available. I looked through them. I also contacted an archivist and found that the firearms records were destroyed. Not surprising since they went bankrupt right at the end of the Vietnam war. Not much interest in firearms after that War by the various "Left".

I'm applying my researched opinion at this point. I don't believe those records would have helped us anyway. All of my research points at the Schofields no longer being viable revolvers after 1890. So in my researched opinion the "Bulk" of them were sold as once again, Surplus weapons, to the general public,etc. So when the guns were turned over in 1918, none of them were Schofields so no records were generated.

What also backs this position up is that I could find NO authentication letters from REA on Schofields. "If" they exist they would be extremely rare. If anyone has one? I'd like to see it but I honestly believe they do not exist.

So, what's left? I have my feelers out still with the Senior Historian with Wells Fargo and one other..Waiting for their response.

Murph

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I received an email that I wanted to share with the forum.

A question was brought up regarding REA authentication letters.

Question: How did REA have records on an 1878 Colt lightning Wells Fargo Express gun that you mentioned in one of your posts but not have information on the 1880's Schofields?

The Colt lightning revolver differs from the Schofield in that it was manufactured until 1909. The Schofield product line was terminated in 1878.

This actually follows my evaluation of the research data. The Schofield was obsolete primarily due to NO parts being available after about 1890.

Where as the Colt lightning remained a viable Field revolver due to factory original internal "PARTS" still being manufactured likely until about 1919....So at least some Colt lightnings definitely were surrendered to the American Railway Express Co in 1918.

Had the Schofield been manufactured beyond 1900? The results would have been much different and records would most definitely be available from several sources including the Smith & Wesson factory I'm sure! I honestly don't know why the Schofield line was terminated so early. There was definitely public interest in the shorter barrel version. Makes little sense to me personally. I think it would have sold to the public and would have been a viable competitor to the Colt SAA. It probably had something to do with the royalty going to Schofield per gun sold?

Murph

Well,
It seems Wells Fargo Historical Department isn't interested in Smith & Wesson Schofield History.
I'll update the forum if they ever answer one on one. So far I'm only getting automated responses. Been trying for almost 3 weeks. I do honestly suspect that there are fragmental records that do exist. Likely they are in collections and small town museums and would take a lifetime to find and document.
One thing is certain. The old documents are valuable. Any surviving document that has Wells Fargo or American Express on the top of the document is worth money.

Anyway, since the information is now trickling in I'm moving on to more productive research. Overall very productive stuff though. I learned a lot and documented a ton.

I just wanted to input a few final comments regarding the survey results;

I firmly believe based on the information found that there were a lot more Schofield Surplus revolvers purchased by both Wells Fargo and American Express than we might have believed.

If we look at the multiple contracts from the early 1890's to early 1900's we can verify over 5000 revolvers purchased by American Express alone!

So I firmly believe that at least a couple thousand Schofields were purchased split between Wells Fargo and American Express Co in the early 1880's. They followed the same pattern of purchasing for decades! Same exact guns!

Also, if we have an open mind and consider that when these Wells Fargo Schofields went to Surplus from the Express Agencys? Many of the Property markings were removed. I documented several in my survey. It makes perfect sense. Whether removed prior to sale by the Express company or by the Civilian buyer who didn't want that property stamp on "their" firearm to avoid accusation of theft!

Then we plug in a collector 140 years later who can't help but attempt to re-apply the property stamp to increase the value of their antique revolver? You have yourself a huge mess of guns that were likely Express Guns originally but have seen the file and die stamp more than once.


Murph

When I look at all my research notes and talley the numbers?

I have almost 100 Schofields/American Express examples documented without much effort.

However, the known contracts of 1700 and 2000 guns of the 1890's? I have less than 30 documented of each known and proven contract!


That alone should tell us something about how many Early Schofields were Wells Fargo guns and American Express guns.

Several Thousand!!!! They are definitely NOT Rare! but very historic.


Murph

Murph,

While I admire how voraciously you've been researching, I sit here with my head in my hands shaking my head in disbelief. I have so much to say about this entire thread, I wouldn't finish until tomorrow morning so I'll just touch on some of the stuff that seems a little "over enthusiastic".

Remember, we should not take more hearsay, embellish it, add to it and pass it on ... that is the job of the Texans who smile when they say "it you can't make a story better, you have no business telling it."

I would like to believe some of this "research" is factual. It's a strict matter of where, when, whom and what evidence you have to back up this research before it is factual (not true, but factual). A "truth" is only that which someone believes is "true". Like " I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" ... the truth being the teller's belief, far amputated from "fact".

You wrote: (START QUOTE) When I look at all my research notes and talley the numbers?

I have almost 100 Schofields/American Express examples documented without much effort.

However, the known contracts of 1700 and 2000 guns of the 1890's? I have less than 30 documented of each known and proven contract!


That alone should tell us something about how many Early Schofields were Wells Fargo guns and American Express guns.

Several Thousand!!!! They are definitely NOT Rare! but very historic.

Murph (end QUOTE)

WHERE did you get the data to back up the above statements. Seems here you're making an awful lot of "assumptions" here.

SEVERAL THOUSAND Schofields were Wells Fargo and American Express guns" ?????? S&W only produced "several thousand".

Up until the mid 1990s, Schofields with any added marking or stamping, whenever you can find them were few and far between. This is a FACT from attending Nationwide gun shows, like Tulsa, Las Vegas, Texas, Baltimore and many more cities on a regular basis for over 15 years when I actively did the show circuit but 40+ years in total, with the help and comparative records of many serious old time Model 3 and Schofield collectors. The Schofield was a nothing gun before Clint Eastwood made "Unforgiven". The Schofield collectors had a few or several but that was it. It wasn't a "gotta have" S&W gun. The "gotta have" gun was the U.S. Cavalry Model 3, 1st issue. That is when I first made contact with Col. Charles Pate to report to him any new discoveries of U.S. Americans that I found. I remember calling him with a serial number from the Tulsa show (appx year 2000) where Col Pate informed me (IIRC) this new number I gave him was #53 of 1000 accounted for on the survivors list .. and it had a hack-sawed off barrel and in just horrible shape.

When I write a crash homicide report for my clients, which will almost always end up as evidence in a court of law, I have ALL my evidence well documented and attached.

Dad used to say, believe HALF of what you see, and a quarter of what you hear. Chop that in half and somewhere in there you'll have a story that will begin to make some sort of sense (minimally) or it's a complete crock.

I believe NOBODY ! Or more like I'm from Missouri .... SHOW ME !!! If I cannot prove it out for myself, I consider it all hearsay (nice way of saying baloney).

Add SPECIFIC, VERY SPECIFIC, sources to your statements, finding and research. If you cannot produce a document (or other hard evidence) that will pass muster ... you cannot report it as factual research.

SEVERAL THOUSAND ??? Come on now Muph ? Hit the brakes and consolidate the hard work and research you've claimed to perform and give it to us ... STRAIGHT !

And what do you do if you cannot put up ?? That's correct !!

Sal Raimondi

PS: You know I like you, but it seems this one got away from you and ran wild. Edit out the hearsay, conjecture, and everything that cannot be SOLIDLY backed up with evidence and give us the raw essence of your hard work, but only that which is from the provable fact.

Remember, almost everything that is printed is not always true and even less often "factual". Excluding, fine research works like Roy Jinks, Robert Neal, Charles Pate, Roy Double, Ed Cornett, C.B. Wilson, Jim Supica, Richard Nahas, Walter Roper, A.L.A. Himmelwright, and a handful of the rest of the old timers (James Redfield and the bunch I usually banter with) that were in this when there was no money to be made in it but rather just for the love of it.

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Thanks Sal,
I appreciate All of your input.

I think we might not be excepting The Historical Departments clear statement : "The Model 3 Schofield was sold as government Surplus Arms in Early 1880".

Total production listed as 8969. That's a lot of surplus!

The data that I have collected supports that the Bulk of this number was sold as surplus in Early 1880. In other words, I support the Historical Departments conclusion.

The Enormous need for Firearms from the various Express Companies is documented. Not estimated. It's not a guess or hearsay. Numbers don't lie. They are what they are backed up by other researched data involving cross referencing that I firmly support as accurate.

Unless we are questioning factory records? I certainly am not. I am only adding to that information based on data collected from multiple sources.

This is not my first project in 30 plus years Sal. I do have quite a bit of experience in detailed firearms research. I try to make an honest effort to eliminate opinion from data posted and when I do include opinion? I clearly state that "in my opinion". Otherwise I am simply recording and posting data found. It's up to the forum as individuals regarding what they in fact believe.

I've also done the rounds of gun shows over the last several decades ( that means over 3 to me). Several to me means over the number 3. However if you look up the definition? Several means over 2. That's not my opinion or hearsay. It's the dictionary that I'm quoting.

So several thousand to me means over 3000 in reference to the Wells Fargo/American Express Schofields. That's actually very likely a low estimate.

If we are trying to plug in "Altered" guns into the legitimate mix? I don't think that there is anyone actually qualified to make that determination. Since there are ZERO records to go on "everything" about the Property stamps on the Schofields is a guess. I don't like going there. That "IS" hearsay!

The only actual data that I am aware of is your Wells Fargo Schofield that is factory documented as returned to the factory in 1945 already having "Wells Fargo markings on the barrel".....That is huge. It's not hearsay. That firmly supports that specific stamp. The stamp is unique. We have discussed that before. However the several other stamps????? Pure hearsay....I don't like going there.

So to me they are simply "not proven" I would never call them FAKE or altered simply because I have ZERO data to back that statement up. That's why I did not mention them except for a comparison in Property stamp transitions that I recorded. I stand behind that data that I recorded also.
However, I have ZERO data on authenticating the Property Stamps.

Honestly, I have thought about this subject for many hours. I also like the subject of dies and stamps and have studied them in depth over the years. Unless we can obtain recorded material from a factory returned gun like yours only having another type stamp? I honestly don't know how we will ever authenticate them. I actually have seen them...There is one on auction right now that shows a factory return star on the butt and has another type Property Stamp. I believe it's Property stamp number 1185.....Also matches serial number....that one needs a letter but I'm not going to spend the $6000 for the gun....

Maybe one of the advanced members can ask Mr. Jinks about that one and see if there is information about the return in the factory records? It's on auction on gunbroker now if anyone wants to take a look at it.



Murph

I think I understand where you are coming from now Sal.

You are not comprehending my data?

Ok, I'm trying to streamline without generating a 10 page post. That's the concept.

The Contracts of 1700 guns and 2000 guns are easily interpreted if you understand the data.

The Schofields had property numbers on the barrel that matched the serial number. That was an 1880's method used by the Express companies that ended about 1891.That was the last one I recorded from American Express Co. Other Express Companies used that early method into the early 1890's like USX/USEX etc. So it's not possible to determine the total number of guns in those early contracts without direct access to factory records. However, with the amount that I found? Those contracts were large also.

HOWEVER!!!

The Smith & Wesson 38 Topbreaks in the Model 3&4 as an example(1700 gun contract)?

This was the 1890's method of property stamps and numbers that began on the back strap with Am.EX.Co. 1 The 1 represents the 1st gun of that contract..... The last gun in the contract had Am. Ex. Co. 1700 (approximately)…

How do we come to this conclusion? Well.....Am. Ex. Co. 1 is lettered to the year 1892...….add several factory letters and increasing property numbers in between to continue the increasing number sequence until the end of the contract.
Example

Am. Ex. Co 150 Year 1894
Am. Ex. Co 229 Year 1895
Am. Ex. Co 317 Year 1896
Am. Ex. Co 402 Year 1897

All backed by factory letters dating the shipment in the listed years and you can see the clear property number sequence increasing as we progress through the years until the end of the contract in 1905 with a total of approximately 1700 guns. The property number represents the number manufactured in order starting in the year 1892 and ending in 1905. Totaling 1700 guns. If you look in reference books? They claim approximately 1000 but my data clarifies the number total to be 1700 +/- 100. I can't make it more clear than that. I have copies of all the factory letters backing this up.

The exact same sequence was used for the Colt lighting contract that began in about 1892 and ended in 1909 with 2000 guns total in that contract. Starting with Property number 1 on the backstrap and continuing sequentially backed by factory letters showing dates and numbers of guns shipped etc until number 2000 in the year 1908 representing the end of the contract. Once again, I have all the factory letters backing this up. With the lightnings however I also have serial number reference where I don't have a letter that confirms year of manufacture. Also proving a sequence to the Property numbers on the backstrap just ahead of the Property stamp.

The Smith & Wesson 38's also show increasing serial numbers associated with the increasing Property number stamped on the backstrap. ALL very consistent Data and takes us in one direction only.

That's about as clear as I can make it without writing a several page article that includes photo's of factory letters, dates, who received the guns, who ordered the guns etc. I'm not going to do that> I'm sharing information and data. My book writing days are likely over.

Murph

Murph, put the .38s aside for now and let's get back to the OPs topic of "authenticating" a Wells Fargo Schofield. STOP right there, WELLS FARGO SCHOFIELD. No others.

How did you get from the original question of:
BEGIN QUOTE: "Is there anyone who will authenticate a Wells Fargo stamped 1st Model Schofield. Plenty of posts out there but at the end of the day it would be good to have the example that has come into my possession to get a thorough review by an expert. Any contact info appreciated if available." END QUOTE

to hijack the OPs thread, yet not respond with a valid response.

Is there truly anyone that is a Schofield and / or Schofield Wells Fargo "expert". I think not as "expert" would infer infallibility in addition to 140+ years of time, in between. Time in which ANYTHING could have happened or been done or modified ... or ... faked.

Those who study certain models seriously, constantly compare notes and findings as Ed Cornett and Charles Pate have done for me and what pittance of a help I could be to them by supplying a fraction of what could be deemed valid input or findings, to them.

The best possible response, in letter format, backed by a knowledgeable collector / historian or aspiring historian can write is a comparative to other known issues that have been proven to "likely" be correct.

Plain common sense mandates that there could not have been just "one" authentic, period, W.F & Co or Cos. stamp. Further, God knows how many fake stamps are out there ? Most fake stamps seem to be "questionable" while other fake stamps can be quite impressive. It all depends on how much the maker and / or seller of the fake invests his time and efforts to disguise or modify a non WF to appear as a genuine WF.

This entire thread is just too grandiose for me to sit down to try to comprehend. Perhaps I could better comprehend it all your research data and connections were notated or footnoted.

Where you give reference it seems you do so in the broadest sense of the word.

Please identify (and give credit to identify) the exact source of your data ? You say S&W Historical Foundation ... how many letters have you in your possession (either in tangible or digital format) from S&WHF on this specific topic ?

Now ... the 38s. You wrote:

QUOTE BEGINS: >>> How do we come to this conclusion? Well.....Am. Ex. Co. 1 is lettered to the year 1892...….add several factory letters and increasing property numbers in between to continue the increasing number sequence until the end of the contract.
Example

Am. Ex. Co 150 Year 1894
Am. Ex. Co 229 Year 1895
Am. Ex. Co 317 Year 1896
Am. Ex. Co 402 Year 1897

***** All backed by factory letters dating the shipment in the listed years and you can see the clear property number sequence increasing as we progress through the years until the end of the contract in 1905 with a total of approximately 1700 guns. ****** The property number represents the number manufactured in order starting in the year 1892 and ending in 1905. Totaling 1700 guns. If you look in reference books? They claim approximately 1000 but my data clarifies the number total to be 1700 +/- 100. I can't make it more clear than that. I have copies of all the factory letters backing this up.

>>>> END QUOTE

You have 1700 letters in either tangible or digital format ?

Forgive me ... It is extremely difficult to even TRY to believe that even bonafide historians and authors have even seen anything near 1700 letters.

I think you're taking an immense amount of artistic license here. The liberty of your thoughts and surmises may be with the truest intention but it is just not believable. Historians write only facts with hard evidence to back their findings.

Please exhibit and / or specifically reference these 1700 letters you have and whatever other reference material you've used, condensed, combined, expanded or write that they exist.

Again, nothing personal. I think your ambition is commendable, however, without referencing each and every source of research data ... it is just too fantastic to believe.

Further, it is NOT for "you" to interpret. It is the duty of any historian or aspiring historian to present only the facts and hard evidence, without any trace of sentiment or opinion.

Opinions are like (a word I cannot type here but it refers to a certain part of the human anatomy). EVERYBODY has one and none of them ever smell good.

For an "opinion" to be taken seriously it has to be backed by good hard evidence and fact ... not merely the mention that this evidence exists but to provide that evidence in unredacted format for the reader to formulate his/her own thoughts on the subject(s).

When first I saw your posts going a bit wild ... I figured I'd shut up until the rant was over. But it kept going and going and going with little input from anyone else. Do you realize that posts 38 to 43 are only YOURS, with no questions or input from anyone else.

It seems when no one replied to your long posts of assumptions and beliefs, the story grew with every next post of yours.

I am not an "expert", just a fairly experienced, well studied and knowledgeable collector. And you, my friend, are NOT an expert either. You cannot make statements like ... "How do we come to this conclusion?" (the only we is you).

AND ... yes, ALL the entries in the Blue Book of Gun Values under Schofield and many other models are completely of my authorship. Some other models I had modified and / or amended what was there in 1993 but the Schofield and several other model S&Ws are all mine, as is the majority of the entries on the pre-39, 39, 39-2 (when I started in 1994 there was only 39-2 listed), the 52A is all of my authorship. The New Model 3 Target .44 entry is also mine.

or: The Enormous need for Firearms from the various Express Companies is documented. Not estimated. It's not a guess or hearsay. Numbers don't lie. They are what they are backed up by other researched data involving cross referencing that I firmly support as accurate.

or: Also, if we have an open mind and consider that when these Wells Fargo Schofields went to Surplus from the Express Agencys? Many of the Property markings were removed. I documented several in my survey. It makes perfect sense. Whether removed prior to sale by the Express company or by the Civilian buyer who didn't want that property stamp on "their" firearm to avoid accusation of theft!

NOTE: I have NEVER noticed or seen evidence of removed property stamp(s) on a Schofield. And, a bill of sale (surplus sale) or just that fact that it was near or over 20 years old at the time, (likely deemed antiquated at the advent of the hand ejectors) would eliminate any thoughts of gun being stolen. The first theoretic issue an owner would may have needed to overcome is the U.S. markings on the gun. Stealing from the U.S. Govt is no small issue but surely not a worry 20 years+ after put out of service.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I’ll let you handle it From here Sal. 1700 factory letters required? That’s just ridiculous!

Murph

YOU stated there were 1700 letters of which I am in disbelief, thus, I am asking you to "put up".

You know that old phrase, either put up or ...

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I made no mention of having 1700 factory letters in my possession. I’m sure you know of many collectors that do? Again an exaggeration of the term several? Now several equals 1700???

That’s ridiculous Sal. Come on now!

How about instead of name dropping and trash talking, and wrench throwing?
You present some actual data that you have collected for the benefit of the forum. No yarns allowed!!

Your turn Sal
I’m atta here!

Murph