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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 03-12-2020, 04:59 PM
dwainbrown dwainbrown is offline
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I would appreciate all information I could get on this revolver. It has a 6.5in barrel, the cylinder is 1 9/16ths, would like to know the caliber, model, and year made if you could go off this information and pictures. If anyone could give a value I would appreciate it. The hammer will not stay cocked back when pulled back. Thank you, Dwain Brown
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Old 03-12-2020, 05:03 PM
dwainbrown dwainbrown is offline
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additional pictures
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Old 03-12-2020, 09:26 PM
dwainbrown dwainbrown is offline
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Thank you for the information, I appreciate it.

Dwain
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Old 03-13-2020, 12:57 AM
iby iby is offline
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Murph nailed it
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Old 03-13-2020, 02:56 AM
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Default Dangerous issue with .44 DA first models.

Murph,

Good response ! You're correct ... what the OP has is a .44 Double Action First model, Frontier. Key words, Double Action. I'm so relieved no one mistakenly called it a New Model 3 DA Frontier. It's like finger nails being dragged on a blackboard when the wrong name (NM3DA) is mistakenly applied.

These 1st Model .44 DAs (includes the Frontier) were notoriously (and quite disappointingly to me) engineered poorly, i feel. Compared to other manufacturers large frame DAs (cough... COLT), the mechanism on the S&W was clunky, clumsy and had "soft" hammers.

There is just one click back to open the hinged barrel, then one more, long pull back to the hammer lock (if it works).

This problem of not locking back into single action (hammer back) usually begins with a very light, unpredictable and DANGEROUS "push off".

In my lifetime I have only encountered a few that were modified / customized to operate correctly and smoothly. Fewer that were in impeccable, original condition.

This problem of the hammer "falling off" the lock position is terribly dangerous as there is no 2nd notch to catch it. It just goes slam down to fire the gun. At one time I owned several of the DA 44 1st model. One a 6.5" target that I worked on until I got it to function flawlessly, which included sharpening the hammer / sear engagement contact points with very fine, sharp India stones.

Once this model starts to manifest problems, a proper, uncomplicated fix is possible, however, I find the hammers are still "soft". I would then send the hammer out to be re-color case hardened. Any approved hardening method would suffice but just as easy to send for the S&W color case hardening. Not knowing if it really made any difference to the person doing the case hardening, I would include a note that my major concern are the engagement contact points.

Usually, on these oldies (remembering at one time they became antiquated, being considered obsolete ... ESPECIALLY when compared "heads up" to the 1st model .44 Hand Ejector (AKA Triple-lock).

Now, a triple lock ... ahhhhh what a gun !!

What usually ended up happening to this entire .44DA 1st breed is as such. They basically became passe and not worth the cost of a proper repair.

Along comes Joe Dokes (Robert Benchly character on TCM movie shorts) who wants to make his .44 DA first operable again, opens it up and sharpens the hammer / sear engagement with a file. 9 of 10 I ever opened up to repair had the hammer (at sear engagement) hacked with a file. Once upon a miracle you open it up to find it caked with dried on filth causing the major part of the problem, I'd clean but still "freshen up" the engagement contacts.

To me ... that hammer that had been filed is now junk yet I have seen some real Rube Goldberg type methodology in some I found that had a repair attempted.

In short, STILL very dangerous.

The last time I needed a 1st model .44 DA hammer and / or trigger (usually just bank a safety to change the trigger return spring while I',m in there) it was near impossible to find. Charles Duffy's son helped me out immensely. He had a hammer that was barely acceptable .... AND .... I was glad to see it. The last time I needed a trigger return spring, made one from a larger shotgun spring, trimming and thinning until it felt correct as most of the old type, correct hammers for these (used parts) the return spring is brittle and usually breaks within the first 50 shots out the pipe.

I strongly suggest to the OP that he clearly states (and gets a signature to verify) that if he sells it in its present condition, it will need to go directly to a qualified gunsmith to have the proper repairs made.

One of our members SixgunStrumpet (spelling) has the most gorgeous, factory modified .44 DA 1st that happens to be one of my favorite guns on the forum.

IIRC it was modified by S&W to a short barrel, bobbed hammer, and to fire in DA only (thereby eliminating the "falling off" single action lock that plagues this model.

Yes, yes, I'm sure some of you out there have pristine .44DA First models that function as fine as the day they were new. That's fine but be wary.

This, naturally, affects the value immensely when you cannot find parts to repair such a critical issue as the hammer falling off.

Anyone with a .44 DA First model S&W (Frontier included) test by making sure the gun is empty. Close the barrel, STILL point in a safe direction, THEN pull the hammer back. If the hammer locks back, hold the gun with 2 hands and place both your thumbs on the rear of the hammer then Push forward.

If it stay back with the pressure of both thumbs pushing forward, you're in better shape that if it does not stay back.

If it falls off the single action lock even with both thumbs pushing as hard as you can, have it repaired.

Sharpening the contact points before they really degenerate and "push off" is an easy repair by a good gunsmith if the hammer has never been monkey-ed with before.

CAUTION >>>> Beware of Non-approved trunk-monkey gunsmith repair facilities .... enjoy !!

Best Regards, Sal Raimondi, Sr.

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Old 03-13-2020, 09:47 AM
dwainbrown dwainbrown is offline
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Thank you Sal for the detailed information. I appreciate any information I can obtain on this firearm.
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:48 AM
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I am needing a rear sear and a stirrup for this S&W, if anybody has these parts or, know of somebody that might have them, I'd appreciate the information.
Thank you
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Old 03-26-2020, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwainbrown View Post
I am needing a rear sear and a stirrup for this S&W, if anybody has these parts or, know of somebody that might have them, I'd appreciate the information.
Thank you
Depending upon what you're trying to describe the rear sear is a notch cut into the hammer. There are also a few additional parts on this model that someone might define as a "sear".

Please remove side plate, photo the item you need to replace (use a pencil to point to the exact area / item you define as "sear" in the photograph).

Parts on this one are very difficult to find because the hammers were so often replaced, finding a hammer in good condition will be a task in and of itself.

The stirrup, too. Unless if fits another model, as well, tough to find. Is the spring missing the 1/2 of the curl where it touches or touched the stirrup ? Have to dig up some of the old parts diagrams, if you have.

Sal
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:33 AM
dwainbrown dwainbrown is offline
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Dear Sal,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to me, I'm attaching two pictures, unfortunately, one of the trunk monkeys got a hold of this gun, and used a file on the sear and hammer. Hopefully, you can see where the stirrup is broken. I've worked on both the sear and hammer using stones, I've got it to where it is staying cocked, but if I could find a new sear, I would feel be better about it. By putting pressure behind the trigger and pushing forward on the hammer, it is staying back, but I need a stirrup to see if it is holding properly.
Thanks again,

Dwain
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:11 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
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I know it's not what you want to hear but you need a hammer, rear sear and the stirrup. Once messed with, the timing and lockup are gone. Check Gunparts Corporation as they have parts occasionally.
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Old 03-30-2020, 10:11 AM
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Thanks Mike I had the feeling this wasn't going to be good news
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Old 03-30-2020, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaher94087 View Post
I know it's not what you want to hear but you need a hammer, rear sear and the stirrup. Once messed with, the timing and lockup are gone. Check Gunparts Corporation as they have parts occasionally.
about 4 years ago I needed just about the same parts you need. i called GunParts Corp, but they didn't have anything. Lucky for me, at that time, Charles Duffy's son, Mike, had been working there part time. Mostly he was organizing his father's left-over parts from a 60+ years of service as a master gunsmith. Mike Duffy now has his own garage that he builds race cars so he no longer works for GunParts and does not do any gun repairs.

Also, my last communication with Mike at about that same time, said, there is nothing remaining of his Dad's old tools, parts, equipment, etc.

Look on GunParts website anyway. They usually have a nice disassembly diagram of all the parts for most models. At least you'll know what the proper names are for those parts you seek although hammer, stirrup and spring seems self defining.

Best Regards, Sal Raimondi
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:08 PM
dwainbrown dwainbrown is offline
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Thanks Sal, I really appreciate all the time you have spent with me giving me information on this gun. I hope to find the parts for this revolver in time. I guess I could sell it for parts. I would rather see it put together. I have worked on guns for many years it's sad to see what people will do to them.
Best regards,
Dwain
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