How much are we knocking a FACTORY refinished antique revolver?

[mrcvs]

How much...these days?

The recent thread with regards to a Model 320 Revolving Rifle that was refinished in amateur fashion makes me ask this.

I am asking about a factory refinished Smith & Wesson, the one with an asterisk and a date code.

Some will entertain owning a nonprofessionally refinished firearm, "just to have" a certain representative model, if they don't already have one. To me, this is troublesome. On the other hand, a "purist" would likely not be interested in even a factory refinished gun. But, how does one collect Schofields, for example. My understanding is that all. U.S.-marked specimens had been refurbished before the advent of the 20th Century.

I had heard that the general rule of thumb is that a factory refinished gun is worth 85% of that in like condition but not factory refinished. I would guess that this applies to firearms in >40 or 50% condition. Below that, I wouldn't think it would matter.

Does this "conventional wisdom" still hold water, or is it now being disregarded? For example, I know somewhat recently of two nearly identical Triple Locks coming up at auction, the first offered was not refinished, the second one in the auction contained the asterisk. The second brought more than the first! My guess is that a bidder on the first lot was outbid, and bid on the second lot hoping to get it for less, and being unsuccessful at that, bid high enough to get it, or make it painful enough for the competing bidder to snag that particular Triple Lock.

The aforementioned is meant to be in reference to models such as the No 2 Army, American Model, NM No 3, etc., etc.

And, as discussed previously, there are those such as Charles Duffy, who were so skilled at what they did, that it's nearly impossible to differentiate between their expert refinish and factory original.

Then, of course, the asterisk does not always signify a refinish, but just a return to the factory for an undocumented number of reasons, one of which, of course, would be to refinish.

[H Richard]

I think your est of 85% is probably about right, but in my estimation it might depend on the scarcity of the actual model in question. A .32 Regulation Police Target may be worth 90%+ due to the relative scarcity of them.

I was amazed at the value quoted on a Number 1, 1st Issue, 3rd type I acquired that in my opinion probably falls in antique fine, but has enough bumps and bruises and chips to rate about 50%, but the blue and silver plate are both about 70% remaining. Considering they only made 1870 of them raises the value considerably.

[gmborkovic]

I dont believe they are knocks. Just comments on personal preferences.
Are there any rules on values? I dont know. I just like factory original guns.
Some I have are queens and some well loved shooters. I look at them all.
Depends on my mood at the time.

[S&WsRsweet]

One thing for sure I have discovered with this whole collecting thing is 1 condition is everything to a true collector and 2 condition is in the eyes of the beholder at that particular moment for that particular gun .That said collectors being a frugal bunch in general discount a factory refinish a lot more when buying a gun than when selling the same gun. Just kiddin just kiddin I don't want to get kicked out .

[Wiregrassguy]

I've seen the condition appraisal that Supica and Nahas state in SCSW4th used fairly often: A factory refinish may raise the condition to Very Good. I believe many who entertain collecting anything but pristine guns would include a restoration by professionals like Ford's, APWCogan or Turnbull as roughly equivalent.

[mm93]

Restored guns have always been something that gets lots of controversy. But it's not as simple as saying they're all bad. A factory restored gun that is a nicely done restoration and documented can often bring more than any other restoration, and more than some originals in less than great condition.
At what point a gun is better off restored depends on several things to me. First being if it was improperly restored already. I wont hesitate to strip and restore a gun that's had a ****** restoration already. It's just an insult to a fine gun when someone screws up the restoration, so having it properly finished is always better.
And a gun that's been abused, or seen a hard life is better off restored for me. At some point I see a gun is just too far gone to want to keep it original. When the original finish is too bad, I'd rather restore it.
But I own guns that have almost no finish, that show they've been well loved and not abused. I'd never dream of restoring those guns because they aren't candidates based simply on lack of finish. Since the metal shows signs of decades of use, but not abuse, I prefer to maintain that well earned look myself.

[gmborkovic]

Do the terms restored and refinished mean the same thing?
I have seen Ford refinished guns and Turnbulls restorations.
Not impressed. Would not buy one. Just my personal opinion. Dont take offense. There are to many nice, original guns out there for sale.

[Absalom]

Threads like this usually turn into an accumulation of expressions of individual preference, which is happening here too.

That's because the market is simply too small for a true market value to emerge. And since so many transactions are private one-on-one affairs, the market, limited as it is, isn't very transparent either, and many factors besides the finish's originality may drive the sale price.

So with no disrespect intended to anyone, I do not place trust or importance in sources, experienced as they may be, using percentages to create the illusion of objective parameters. Those don't exist.

If something common like an M&P/Victory comes up and the question arises, a few minutes with Gunbroker's closed auctions updates me on enough current sales to hazard a ballpark guess, but for the kind of guns we're talking about here, that's not so easy. Anecdotes aren't data usable for general pronouncements.

What a gun is worth depends on what someone is willing to pay for it.

A friend of mine is just discovering that in respect to real estate. Zillow and other online tools value his house at 300,000, but after 6 months he is starting to realize that this does not do him one bit of good if there is no buyer who shares that assessment.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by S&WsRsweet

One thing for sure I have discovered with this whole collecting thing is 1 condition is everything to a true collector and 2 condition is in the eyes of the beholder at that particular moment for that particular gun .That said collectors being a frugal bunch in general discount a factory refinish a lot more when buying a gun than when selling the same gun. Just kiddin just kiddin I don't want to get kicked out .

YOU MAY BE JUST KIDDING, BUT IMHO, THERE IS A KERNEL OF TRUTH IN YOUR STATEMENT......

[cmansguns]

"Fair" Market Value has been classically described forever as "What a willing Seller will take from a willing buyer". I'm sure that is true in any venue of selling/buying but as Absalom says our S&W collecting world is somewhat limited because their are not that many "willing Sellers" of limited, or scarce, or even 1 of a 1000, or 2000 because absolutely none of these will ever be made anymore, so although there may be many "willing buyers" there just isn't enough on the supply side to go around so the negotiations never get to first base.

In the cases where a particular model does come up for sale, no matter the venue, I personally don't think you can successfully play the re-finish, or non-matching grip numbers, or no box/docs stuff to turn it into a "steal".

Unless one is in an emergency situation where the gun "must sell", most of these "desirable's" are already in the hands of someone either "expert" or at least knowledgeable about the gun and its scarcity and they probably have an excellent idea of what fair market value means to them, and won't budge any appreciable amount.

I have nothing up for sale at this time however as a example(s) of my thought process...let's say I did want to move my Model 10 in 98%, my 1899 Army (1 of 1000 ever made) with the earliest s/n recorded on this Forum, and maybe my M1 Garand National Match IHC.

The Model 10 would probably get listed for $500, and would maybe move at $450 cause they are indeed all around in quantity and the finish is about the only thing that would be in my favor, whereas the 1899 is not a thing of deep blue beauty, but all correct with the right stamps, stocks, initials is a seldom seen survivor and I would price that one right on up there, regardless of what RIA, Julia's or other I-net "big guys" are "listing" for again because I've got the only one there is in that condition, and for sure....I'm reaching for only that collector who wants it worse than me....only the time is the factor in that one.

The Garand is another story which is probably "middle ground". It is a nice one, correct, very high condition, National Match components, and a CMP purchase years ago (in fact one of the very last US Army arsenal rebuilds before switching to M14 overhauls in 1967). So this rifle could be listed for twice what I paid CMP years ago, or even a little less and I would be happy, or it could go for Blue Book (arsenal rebuild price) or if someone wanted a National Match in 98% condition it could end up higher yet. For a purist wanting only a WWII or Korea untouched they wouldn't be interested at any price so there you have it.

A Model 10 that is very subject to pricing based on condition and an "oldie" that won't be a steal to a middle ground M1 that may or may not be haggled over before it goes on down the road.

To answer the OP question (slightly paraphrased) "does refinish at factory mean much money wise". It might.........and it might not, at least to me in my small world of collecting, accumulating, and shooting what I have always liked and admired.

So sure

[gmborkovic]

Hey Joe, more than a kernel, more like the whole cob.

[Jaymo]

Originally Posted by one eye joe

YOU MAY BE JUST KIDDING, BUT IMHO, THERE IS A KERNEL OF TRUTH IN YOUR STATEMENT......

Yep. "If it's yours, it's s***. If it's mine, it's gold."
I've run into this.

[one eye joe]

A FACTORY REFINISH MAY PALE IN QUALITY TO A REFINISH AT FORD'S OR A RESTORATION AT TURNBULL.....

I AM NOT A COLLECTOR, BUT I DO TAKE PRIDE IN THE APPEARANCE OF THE FIREARMS THAT I OWN AND SHOOT. I WOULD NOT ASCRIBE AN ADDITIONAL PREMIUM TO A FIREARM, BECAUSE IT WAS REFINISHED AT S&W....

[Camster]

Originally Posted by one eye joe

A FACTORY REFINISH MAY PALE IN QUALITY TO A REFINISH AT FORD'S OR A RESTORATION AT TURNBULL.....

I AM NOT A COLLECTOR, BUT I DO TAKE PRIDE IN THE APPEARANCE OF THE FIREARMS THAT I OWN AND SHOOT. I WOULD NOT ASCRIBE AN ADDITIONAL PREMIUM TO A FIREARM, BECAUSE IT WAS REFINISHED AT S&W....

I agree with you Joe, but collectors are a different lot.
Many might also be turned off by aftermarket engraving,which could easily be superior to factory engraving.
Many would pay a premium for a boxed 97% gun,while knocking a 100% gun that's missing the box, which is nothing more than cardboard, meant to get the gun cheaply to a dealer.It's as if the box magically give the gun untouched virginal status,and rolls back the clock to its shipment date.
I go solely by condition. A refinished gun will never be as good as a decent original, in the same way that a repainted classic car isn't the same as one not repainted.You'll never know what it looked like before the process, and that plants a question in your head, and therefore lower value.Does it matter that much if a Chevy dealer painted a car rather than the guy down the street? Both could have started with the same mess of a car.

[merl67]

As a relatively new collector compared to some of you, I am thankful for those of you that only want non refinished Smiths in your collection. This has helped those of us that do not have the budget for what some of these bring to have a representative in our collection. Obviously all things being equal I prefer an all original over any refinish. Here are my five refinished, and one modified/refinished Smiths I enjoy having them all.

[gmborkovic]

Mr. Jaymo, those guys at the shows buying guns are known as
alchemists. They degrade, buy and next week have a valuable gun of historic significance. An iron ingot to 24K gold. Beware.

[mrcvs]

Originally Posted by one eye joe

... I WOULD NOT ASCRIBE AN ADDITIONAL PREMIUM TO A FIREARM, BECAUSE IT WAS REFINISHED AT S&W....

The issue was not assigning a premium to a refinish at Smith & Wesson relative to an as original condition and/or an amateur refinish. To me, an amateur refinish is of zero interest. One performed by Smith & Wesson is of interest, and the intent of this thread was to see what others would establish as a fair value relative to original, 85% or otherwise. It appears the 85% figure still is a good rule of thumb, despite some evidence, although not consistent, to the contrary.

[JH1951]

The comments by cmansguns is hitting the nail on the head IMHO.
"What it is" makes all of the difference in the world. My one 1911 is a 1918 Colt. It is in excellent condition. But, and a big but it is, it has been arsenal refinished/rebuilt. That knocks some dollars right off the top, without question. It will never have the same value of a very nice original condition 1918 Colt 1911.
Scarcity is the trump card. Anyone in to collecting Pennsylvania long rifles can verify this. Over the decades I have purchased several rifles that were basket cases/rusty smokepoles with several shards of stock remaining. But, by a maker that commands high value due to workmanship and scarcity. In 'as found' condition, the 'value' may have been $1000.00, but after an 'expert reconditioning' that may have left a lot less than 50% original parts, and a beautiful piece quite representative of the original as envisioned it would have been (at a cost of several thousand dollars), you end up with a $10,000.00, perhaps considerably more, piece. Then comes the 'scruples' issue - I always sold with disclosure of a restoration, including the depth to which it went. Some people do not disclose, and there are a lot of Kentucks out there posing as original commanding astronomical prices, that only the very trained eye can detect as having been reconstituted, and the only original part may be the signed barrel or lock.
So, for very rare pieces, a refurb can be very much of an enhancer for value (assuming that it is well done). Here I am talking about items that were not mass produced, and in some cases very few examples remain. Very few (if any) S&W handguns would fall into this category, although some are quite rare and have quite a following of individuals seeking them. So, scarcity, in my opinion, is the trump card. I discount most (not all) pieces that have been refinished to at least some degree. And, of course, 'who did it' would also come in to play.
Offered as food for thought only and not argument.
Let me add that I like to collect K-22's. (Well, lets say that I always seem to have several.) I would see very little value in one that was refinished, no matter who did the job. There are just too many excellent unmolested ones out there to be had. If I wanted one to go swimming with, I would seek a rough one at a dirt cheap price.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by merl67

As a relatively new collector compared to some of you, I am thankful for those of you that only want non refinished Smiths in your collection. This has helped those of us that do not have the budget for what some of these bring to have a representative in our collection. Obviously all things being equal I prefer an all original over any refinish. Here are my five refinished, and one modified/refinished Smiths I enjoy having them all.

GOOD FOR YOU, merl67. I HOPE THAT YOU ALLOW YOURSELF THE PLEASURE OF SHOOTING EVERY REVOLVER IN YOUR COLLECTION, AS WELL.......

[gmborkovic]

All you guys are interested in value. Just buy the gun to shoot and appreciate. Pay a fair price and enjoy it. If you want to make money pull your panties up and jump in the stock market. Its amazing the return
you can make if you do a little work.

[Jaymo]

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Mr. Jaymo, those guys at the shows buying guns are known as
alchemists. They degrade, buy and next week have a valuable gun of historic significance. An iron ingot to 24K gold. Beware.

I've noticed that. With the exception of my 66-1 snub and my 52-1, I've bought all of my S&Ws from two different gun/pawn shops with with I have a great relationship.
I'd like to get my 10-6 4" reblued at the factory, just because I'd like to have it as new again (finish-wise). Not for resale. Just because I'd like for it to look as good as it shoots (I call it Ugly Betty).
Same goes for my 586. It deserves to be as beautiful as it was from the factory.
I love a woman with freckles. Not so crazy about a gun with them.

I know. I could sell them and buy nicer ones.
HOWEVER, I can't get enough money out of them to do that, and I have other things I need the money for.
Plus, the 586 needs to go back to the factory for the recall.

And, they are both great shooters.
Better, the devil you know, than the witch you don't.
The replacements may have problems that show up when shooting.

I buy them to shoot. I can't afford to be a collector.
My only Smith with any real collector value is my 1965 52-1 that was all scratched up by the factory and sent to a certain organization to be given to a certain winning competitor at a certain BIG championship in '65.
Get yer tar and feathers fellas, I'm going to shoot that one. Already ordered and received 2,000 Speer HBWCs to load.
Who cares about Camp Perry, anyway?
Unless, I can sell it for enough to buy an equal condition 52-2.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Hey Joe, more than a kernel, more like the whole cob.

LOL, gmborkovic. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TONE DOWN MY REMARKS, SO AS TO NOT RUN FURTHER AFOUL OF THE POWERS THAT GOVERN THIS FORUM.......

[mm93]

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Do the terms restored and refinished mean the same thing?
I have seen Ford refinished guns and Turnbulls restorations.
Not impressed. Would not buy one. Just my personal opinion. Dont take offense. There are to many nice, original guns out there for sale.

They can, but it depends on the level of each. A restoration doesn't always mean a gun looks like new when done. A restoration can be just mechanical, where a gun is put back in 100% working order. Or it can mean mechanical, and minor cosmetics such as small wood repairs to stocks. What I refer to as a "sympathetic restoration". This type of restoration is to make the gun work perfectly, but not do anything to make the gun look new again. It's to ensure the gun retains it's age, but repairs small cosmetic damage.
Refinishes aren't always the same, as some are doing very authentic refinishes, while others are simply making them look like new, but not like new as the factory did it. Any refinish that doesn't make the gun look exactly as it left the factory is unacceptable, and a waste of money for me. Best to leave it alone if the person doing the work doesn't know what finish to apply on certain parts.

[model3sw]

One of my main concerns on a Factory Refinished S&W ... especially OLDER refinish dates (I own MANY of them) is that an unscrupulous seller, somewhere up the line, may have it refinished AGAIN.

Not a tabu if it is disclosed but many try to pass off a poor refinish (over a factory refinish) as a "dated" factory finish.

Other than that, I'm just fine with a Factory Refinished S&W but I grade them by the amount of wear UNDER the refinish. For example, try to evaluate the condition of the gun prior to it being refinished.

Rust pocks that are finished over are a tabu to me. Rarely will you see that on a S&W refinish but you WILL see it. A RM in Nickel 3.5" LEO gun I owned, factory refurbished in the 1960s with the stocks off looked awful with rust pits nickeled over. With a set of Magnas on it, it looked fine.

[model3sw]

Sometimes ... it just doesn't seem to matter regarding factory refinish / value concerns. I think it depends on "the" specific S&W model, the date the service was performed and current condition (both current and prior to refinish).

This one has no star in the serial number but is stamped 758 with a diamond B. I've had it over 25 years, the previous owner approximately 30 years.

One of the most magnificent Schofields I've ever seen or owned.

It's going to be hard to let it go, the day I decide to part with it.

Custom built case by Marvin Huey. Huey made brass oil bottle, Huey made custom craft screwdriver and an original cleaning rod.
See his home page: Pistol Cases - Huey Gun Cases


Photos by Mark Calzaretta "COLT_SAA" on the this forum.

[Wiregrassguy]

Wow! That's an impressive package, Sal.

[gmborkovic]

Sal, in photo #3, what is that buggered up screw head? Is that for the trigger return or guard?

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Sal, in photo #3, what is that buggered up screw head? Is that for the trigger return or guard?

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. please post a picture of a perfect, exemplar / comparative screw on one of your best Schofields.

[mm93]

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Sal, in photo #3, what is that buggered up screw head? Is that for the trigger return or guard?

That is the upper trigger guard retainer screw. Holds the front edge of the trigger guard to the frame.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by mm93

That is the upper trigger guard retainer screw. Holds the front edge of the trigger guard to the frame.

That's just Mike, being Mike, throwing in a occasional razzie (the prepubescent equivalent to a whoopie cushion prank) and me tossing it back at him as graciously (and politely sarcastic) as possible

It's all in good fun. If Mike and I ever took each others' jokes seriously, it would end up being a showdown / duel of lawn darts at 20 paces. LOL.

[gmborkovic]

Sal, after all these years you have not forgiven me for that really funny
whoopie cushion incident. Mike

[RMFnLA]

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Mr. Jaymo, those guys at the shows buying guns are known as
alchemists. They degrade, buy and next week have a valuable gun of historic significance. An iron ingot to 24K gold. Beware.

I always thought it was a matter of geography since it all depends which side of the table you are on.

[RMFnLA]

Restorations like Turnbulls often end up costing as much as or even more than an original gun.

I don't see them as real collectors as much as ways to get really nice shooters.

[DesmoEd]

Refinished antique pistols don't interest me, regardless of where and when it was performed.

Now something post 1900 like a triple lock would be ok I guess if it was done right.

Curious about the OP's statement regarding all US Schofields being refinished prior to 1900? Anyone have additional info?

Thanks, Ed

[iby]

Originally Posted by DesmoEd

Refinished antique pistols don't interest me, regardless of where and when it was performed.

Now something post 1900 like a triple lock would be ok I guess if it was done right.


Thanks, Ed

I agree with you regarding the antiques.
I also would like to have a Triple lock but I don't get the distinction between 1898 and 1908 for a refinish ??
Regards
Mike

[DesmoEd]

Originally Posted by iby

I agree with you regarding the antiques.
I also would like to have a Triple lock but I don't get the distinction between 1898 and 1908 for a refinish ??
Regards
Mike

Hey Mike,

thats easy, its the distinction between old west BP and modern smokeless

For me old west BP pistols chambered in say .44 American or .45 Schofield need to be wearing their original finish to be of any interest. Its part of their character and allure.

A triple lock in .44 Special, although barely post 1900, is hardly considered an old west firearm so I could tolerate a high quality refinish.

I have a well worn 1st Schofield that I'm proud to own in its current condition as it reflects its use throughout a very interesting time in our history





One exception to the above are the early Colt SAA's that were nickle plated by Adams at the distributor level back in the 1870's. Even those pistols, as nice as some are, will take a hit on value as they will letter from Colt as having shipped blue.

[DesmoEd]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

But, how does one collect Schofields, for example. My understanding is that all. U.S.-marked specimens had been refurbished before the advent of the 20th Century.

Can you please provide additional info?

Thanks, Ed

[mrcvs]

The U.S. military deaccessioned stock and it primarily went to Schuyler, Hartley & Graham or Francis Bannerman & Co, both of New York. They were refurbished for civilian resale. I have been verbally told this by more than one very knowledgeable Smith & Wesson collector.

[DesmoEd]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

The U.S. military deaccessioned stock and it primarily went to Schuyler, Hartley & Graham or Francis Bannerman & Co, both of New York. They were refurbished for civilian resale. I have been verbally told this by more than one very knowledgeable Smith & Wesson collector.

I do not think you have correct info. For one to state all US marked pistols were refinished upon release from military duty is much too broad a statement. What about the examples that were lost or liberated by their owners?

I went back and looked into the excellent S&W Collectors Handbook by Mr Neal and Mr Jinks. Regarding the surplus revolvers sold by Bannerman and SH&G they state: "to increase sales they had their gunsmiths cut the barrels to 5 inches, thus offering both 7 and 5 inch lengths. Since the Gov contract called for only blue guns, these firms had many of the Schofield contract guns nickle plated. Since these revolvers were in new condition and this refinishing required no polishing, these nickle models have the appearance of an original finish".

So if the guns that were nickel plated were in such new condition that they required no polishing why on earth would a distributor in the business of making money go to the trouble of refinishing blue pistols to be sold as surplus? Makes absolutely no sense.

I'd love to hear anyone else's take on the subject.

[rwsmith]

...to shoot, store or display? Planning to sell later at a profit or keep in the family forever.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

The U.S. military deaccessioned stock and it primarily went to Schuyler, Hartley & Graham or Francis Bannerman & Co, both of New York. They were refurbished for civilian resale. I have been verbally told this by more than one very knowledgeable Smith & Wesson collector.

I don't know how I lost track of this post way back.

Anyhow, it is long accepted that all surplus-ed Schofields were AT MINIMUM "reconditioned" or completely refurbished.

God and the devil are the only two who can attest (oh, and my "Dad" /mentor, Ed Cornett, too) if they were ALL ( 100% of the surplus purchased guns) were reconditioned or refurbished.

I am not beating my chest saying I am absolutely correct but I put this out there as a point of conjecture. Just, THINK about it. Then THINK where the data originates. Seems every new post on this forum is a new "expert" while some are just posting hear-say, old-wives' tales and flat out WRONG information that they heard "sormewhere" or from a friend of a friend, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Walk into this and think with an open, LOGICAL, mind.

Per my research none of these came in individually boxed parcels but rather in custom cut crates of many guns.

It only common sense they got a good bouncing around when originally shipped to the US Arsenal but I will also "presume" S&W was extremely more caring with the crating and boxing when new than the U.S. Govt was when sold off as surplus.

As a "not to far off the subject" item ... it was attested that the U.S. contract 1899 M&Ps when shipped out for surplus (with emphasis on the U.S. Navy issue) were just tossed (realistically TOSSED) into a large metal barrel or wooden keg.

I can personally attest to similar wooded kegs I viewed in a forgotten and dilapidated storage shed extension (off the main building) at Sarco in New Jersey (circa 1995) was filled with random Schofield parts (no complete guns) that had been in a damp leaky roofed area, bing, frozen, thawed for gawd knows how many decades.

The shop manager was eager to work with me. I traded 3 days of my labor to organize that room for them under the condition that I'd get a shot at purchasing some of the surplus. Mostly I wanted the "kegs". All I could salvage from the Schofields was odds and ends bits. the barrels and frames were thoroughly rusted and crusted up. I was severely depressed for many months after that. I find the Indiana Jones, Smith & Wesson collector cache of a lifetime and they had past the point of no return decades prior. Perhaps I could have salvaged some screws and clasps and perhaps a cylinder and mechanism here and there but the owner (not the manager who I got along with) set a price as if the scrap were gold salvaged from the S.S. Central America (although at that time the SSCA had not yet been discovered)

Yes, I'll agree some of the US Government surplus sold Schofields may have been un-issued, perhaps just needing a once over for function and fitness but there is NO WAY a barrel cut to 5" was not completely refurbished.

The part missed that I've stated several times and taught by and approved by older collectors who are now decades gone and past, is the quality of the refinish circa 1880-1910 time frame from large S&W dealers like SH&G, Bannermans, etc. compared to more recently, member and old time gunsmith and WWII Veteran, submariner, Charles Duffy.

Charles Duffy passed about 10 years ago IIRC. He kept getting dragged out of his retirement to his last days by other members. Charles Duffy's standard refinish would ... hands down ... out class the major restoration experts of today. I'd say Dave Chicoine was also a "magician" in his impeccable attention to detail (in his day before his stroke).

If you doubt the rest, don't ever doubt a shortened 5" barrel Schofield left the re-selling surplus dealer without being completely refurbished.

I have 3 x 5" Schofields. One wearing the surplus nickel finish lightly and mellowly worn, a 5" blue refinished in July 1945 and a Wells Fargo Schofield that letters as having it's finish "changed" to nickel in July 1945, also noting that when it arrived at S&W in 1945 it had already been shortened to 5" and had already been stamped Wells Fargo. This letter proving the W.F. markings present in 1945 are one of the several guns i use in comparing to others for authenticity.

See >>>> http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...ced-1945-.html


I also have a 7", 1st model Schofield factory refurbished by S&W in 1958 in a custom "Huey" case. Both the gun and the case are absolutely stunning, Marvin Huey, another master.

See >>>> http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...ed-1958-a.html

As you can tell, I have NO hesitation purchasing a factory refurbished (or a surplus sale refinished) Schofield ... IF ...., after thorough inspection i determine it "is in fact" the finish of the date imprinted and NOT another refinish on top of the factory refinish.

I've made a few people sore when I stated decades back, unless you have a Schofield that was taken out of service by the soldier / officer back in the day, there is NO possible way to determine whether the finish is the "surplus" finish, original finish or a Charles Duffy finish.

Excluding, of course, the factory refinish because the date and / or star stamp are the "tells" on a factory refurbish. Other than that date / star the surplus finish, Charles Duffy Finish, Dave Chicoine finish can be undetectable.

I'm sure there are still a few gunsmiths that are manic to detail and originality. I admire anyone with talent and skill in his hands.

Best Regards, Sal Raimondi

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

How much...these days?

The recent thread with regards to a Model 320 Revolving Rifle that was refinished in amateur fashion makes me ask this.

I am asking about a factory refinished Smith & Wesson, the one with an asterisk and a date code.

Some will entertain owning a nonprofessionally refinished firearm, "just to have" a certain representative model, if they don't already have one. To me, this is troublesome. On the other hand, a "purist" would likely not be interested in even a factory refinished gun. But, how does one collect Schofields, for example. My understanding is that all. U.S.-marked specimens had been refurbished before the advent of the 20th Century.

I had heard that the general rule of thumb is that a factory refinished gun is worth 85% of that in like condition but not factory refinished. I would guess that this applies to firearms in >40 or 50% condition. Below that, I wouldn't think it would matter.

Does this "conventional wisdom" still hold water, or is it now being disregarded? For example, I know somewhat recently of two nearly identical Triple Locks coming up at auction, the first offered was not refinished, the second one in the auction contained the asterisk. The second brought more than the first! My guess is that a bidder on the first lot was outbid, and bid on the second lot hoping to get it for less, and being unsuccessful at that, bid high enough to get it, or make it painful enough for the competing bidder to snag that particular Triple Lock.

The aforementioned is meant to be in reference to models such as the No 2 Army, American Model, NM No 3, etc., etc.


And, as discussed previously, there are those such as >>> Charles Duffy, who were so skilled at what they did, that it's nearly impossible to differentiate between their expert refinish and factory original.



Then, of course, the asterisk does not always signify a refinish, but just a return to the factory for an undocumented number of reasons, one of which, of course, would be to refinish.

Ian,

I'm sorry i didn't dive into this post when it was newer but it was starting to bring out harsh temperaments. Yes, Charles Duffy (RIP) was the man. Never, ever, did he perform his work with intention to deceive anyone. He would do his work for a client (usually another member, mostly just one or 2 other members) that used poor Charlie to pass his work off as original. Being told directly from one of the old time member ... "it was so good that I have to artificially age the Revolving Rifle that Charlie refinished because it was TOO nice" True !!


Usually the guys screaming the most about an "original finish" Schofield are the guys that paid big bucks beleiving the one they have is an original finish when, in fact, there is a larger chance it is NOT an original finish than it might be an original finish.

[ol777gunnerz]

The refinish by the factory on my 3rd Model Perfected SS mirrors the one done on Sal's revolver, even the same year. The lettering & trademark stamps are lighter due to polishing. Roy Jinks could find no paper for the refinish, nor the S&WHA, Roy said that is normal when the gun is refinished with no other work performed.

[St0rmshad0w]

Depends on the make Condition and how bad the buyer wants it, But i have seen good Colt go for $2000 atleast.