Got my hands on one today. Not in very good shape. Blueing is gone and has some brown patina. Was neglected for who knows how long and is a tad rusty which I know I can handle that being careful with the oiled 0000 steel wool. The action breaks open easily enough but after a couple of maybe not so smart dry fires the trigger is unable to be pulled. Also the trigger would not reset when I did the dry fire, had to push it forward.
The only markings I can see right now are the SW on the grip. The muzzle end of the barrel appears to have no rifleing but I can see it further in. Are there parts still available for these? Although at the moment I would not be inclined to put a live round in it.
I know I know, pictures. I will work on it. I will take a few before I do anything to show what it looks like now. Might take me a few days though.
Thoughts and advice are welcome as well as sought.
These are of limited value to begin with so it's really pointless to put money into one of these unless it's in nearly 100% condition.
You ask if parts are available. But, it sounds like you own a parts gun to begin with. Best to part yours out, in all probability, unless you spray liberally with Kroil and you find after application and time to soak in, that you have a fully functional firearm.
I have one. Mine functions fairly well. I’ve taken to the range one time.
If you end up parting it out, I’m interested in the right grip panel. Let me know if you decide to do that.
If you want to clean the rust off the gun, you will not reduce the value any further. Steel wool will not get it all, but Naval Jelly will. Soaking the gun in acetone to remove any oils on the exterior and interior will allow jelly to make short work of the rust, right down to the pits in the barrel. It will take a couple hours fully submerged to work fully, so don't worry about the 15 minute time rule on the directions.
When I started buying antique revolvers decades ago, I used this method and it will leave the gun in a dull gray antiqued finish. I sometimes would just leave it that way and put all the parts back in the gun and go to the range and see if it shot. Your problem with return springs may simply be because the springs inside are rusted or full of dried grease, so cleaning up all the interior parts first will determine if you need any parts or not?
In any event, you will need to strip the gun of all parts unless the screws cannot be removed. If the screws will not turn, soaking it in a penetrating oil is probably the only way you will get the screws to break free. Try them first and if there is any resistance, soak for a few days in a solution of ATF and acetone in the garage or outside. To strip all rust off the gun and go back to step one. Good luck.
If you have the time and don't mind dropping a few dollars, have fun and get it working. One option to fix the bad rifling, once you have the action working, is have a gunsmith back bore it a bit. I don't see why that wouldn't fix the issue, though it is by no means traditional. It also lets you keep the rest intact without changing the exterior.
Removed the grip panels and found a number on the inside of the right panel, 19073. Unfortunately both panels have a small area that have broken off below the bottom of the frame pin hole. From the looks of the wood where the break is they were broken long ago.
It appears to be a 38, a 32 S&W Long case falls into the cylinder but a 38Super Auto case is a nice fit for size although only goes in just over half the case length.
The larger screw on the side plate wont budge as well as the screw at the bottom of the front strap. The pivot screw removes easy enough but the other part of it does not want to move. Have applied a drop of Ed's Red to the screw end a couple times and let it sit but did not help yet. I guess it is going to need a good soaking.
The cylinder chambers look really good after a little cleaning with Ed's Red and a bronze brush. The barrel was pretty dirty but now I can see rifleing from front to back. There is a band of pitting about an inch in from the breech.
With the grips removed and shining a flashlight into the action the metal looks shiny and rust free.
Try some penetrating oil on the sideplate screw. May have to reapply several times. Also, a small amount of heat may help. Once you have applied the oil, heat the area until the oil starts to smoke, no more. Try the screw when hot and again when it cools down. If nothing will budge it, make up a solution of automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Submerge the frame and let is set for a couple days.
As for the hinge pin, reinsert the screw about half way and tap on it until the pin moves out.
. . . I am very reluctant to use anything like Naval Jelly or EvapoRust which will remove anything more than just the rust.
Next question: is the extractor star removeable
Yes it is. Lift the top latch and pull back on the cylinder and unscrew it. Do not let the latch down until you remove the cylinder or you might get circular scratch marks. The exposed extractor rod has a threaded end, so removing it will allow you to remove the star. Put the end in a vise and turn the cylinder and it should unscrew.
I have never had any metal damage using phosphoric acid based rust remover. These commercial rust removers will not attack the steel unless you leave a part in for weeks. There are video comparisons of various products out there where rusty railroad spikes were submerged in these solutions for days without any apparent damage to the spike.
Did a little lite rubbing with Ed's Red and 0000 Steel wool. The S&W logo on the right side of the frame is barely visible right now but I can see the serial number on the bottom of the grip and the cylinder face which match the numbers on the inside of the grip panel.
The top of the barrel is stamped with two small lines:
SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS U S A PAT'D FEBY
20 77 DEC 18 77 MAY 11 80 SEPT 11 ?? OCT ?? TWO AUG ??
The question marks for numbers I am thrown off because they look like "68", would those dates be correct on this thing?
The other thing is trying to figure out what model version it is. What I am seeing most of the latch to break the action open is a button on each side lifted at the rear sight but this one has a button to push where the hammer spur would be.
Edit: I have tried the serial number look up and got "not valid". Can somebody give me a DOM
Congratulations. It looks like you are making some good progress. Based on the serial number and the latch mechanism, you have a .38 Safety Hammerless 2nd Model, made from 1887-1890.
Mike, 0000 steel wool works faster than bronze wool. Considering the condition of the gun, you would be working for months with bronze. No harm no foul with this one.
I would recommend you consider using a power tool to get the rust off. I'd oil it up good then use a Brass wire wheel about 2" in diameter that's designed for a drill. See photo. Run the wheel at about a 45 degree angle on the surface....Everywhere "EXCEPT" for the blued trigger guard. Leave that alone...It will look a lot nicer with the remaining blue color on there.
Wipe off the oil during polishing and re-apply to obtain a very nice overall finish.
Work the rotating wheel next to the side plate screws.... Often frozen screws are only frozen due to the rust build up around the head of the screw..
The wire wheel will remove this rust and possibly allow you to remove that side plate. It has to come off In order to fix that action issue. I suspect a broken trigger return spring.
A broken spring can also cause the action to bind on these. As mentioned before....You can't hurt the finish since there is none.... and you'll be done in about 20 mins with a power tool!
Plus, it's actually fun...Make sure to wear goggles and gloves. That wheel often throws pieces of wire and if you hit a non gloved finger with that spinning wheel? You'll do some pretty ugly damage to your skin. As long as you have your PPE on? It's fun, very fast, and extremely productive...It will look a ton better also.
Murph
Here is a better example. Photo 1 shows a hammerless Smith & Wesson 38 barrel in poor surface condition that Someone cold blued over rust!
Photo's 3 & 4 show the result after 15 mins using oiled surface work using just the brass wheel I posted a photo of.
*** This is not the final product for me. Just a first stage cleaning. This will likely be enough for yours though. When I finish with this barrel it will shine like a mirror. Ready for nickel finish.
The next stage for me is surface work using a polishing wheel and a special mixture of fine grain and oil that by itself will leave the surface looking just like its been nickel finished. Or I can color it to a cloudy finish like old nickel. Many options....The point is it looks a lot better than a rusty blotchy dark finish. Even with just a single stage cleaning with a coarse wire wheel. Plus the huge benefit is that it will stop rusting!
The rusty finish on your gun will only worsen rapidly if exposed to moist air. Just like brass does from salty air underway? I don't know if you did any sea duty.
I've even seen it continue to rust under a good layer of oil! So that rust has to come off.
The other photo's simply show before and after only 15 mins using the wheel. Very productive. Notice how it brought out the barrel address? Much nicer.
The barrel address is likely very similar to yours so you can clearly read the patent dates to compare to yours.
Not an advocate nor enthusiast of wire wheel rust removal no matter if wire wheel is steel or brass, softer or more rigid, and no matter how awful the gun is aged, damaged, rusted, etc., but, that's just my personal opinion on the subject.
If there is no finish remaining, an overnight submersion in plain old, cheapest brand, white vinegar ( appx $3.00 per gallon at Walmart) after completely dismantled will do miracles. Rinse well, brushing off loose rust dust with an old nylon toothbrush, when removed from vinegar and, perhaps (depending upon how nice it comes out of the vinegar) submerge for another night in clean water with baking soda, then rinse with plain water, and blow dry with compressed air. What you might want to do next depends on how nice it is after the rust removal.
PS: the trigger return spring on the old top break DAs are a common problems. They get old and brittle stuck in a torsion-ed position for all the years it was stored. Return spring (if working on an old gun) will often go 20-50 shots before the spring cracks in 2. Should be able to find the trigger return spring, easy enough but likely used. Buy 2, save one.
Electrolysis also works extremely well, but remember, ALL the blue (even in protected areas) will be completely removed with either method (white vinegar or electrolysis).
"... and that's all I got to say about that." :: Forrest Gump ::
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Last edited by model3sw; 03-26-2020 at 12:07 PM.
Reason: punctuation.
Hello
I had exactly the same problem on a 32 safety 1 model.
I thought it was a balance between the trigger spring and the mainspring
. I changed the mainspring , but nothing better.
Yesterday I made several mainspring , including 2 for safety.
The spring on the gun, which I thought was original, was flat. I made a much more curved one. (Its shape at rest positions the hammer slightly back)
result: the hammer recedes slightly and the trigger takes the notch.
I no longer have this problem
OH come on! maligning the sacred wire wheel! The staple of every garage in America. The go to tool for cleaning grills, patio furniture and Target #3. What kind of American are you? Is the next thing to criticize pasta, pizza pie and fried chicken. I especially like the 6" in. wheel with
the little balls on the end of the wires. OH, martini time. Mike
As with any project you approach it based on many factors.
The " 2" Brass Wire Wheel" recommendation is not open to "Sensational" evaluations of use with "ALL" applications. Suddenly, my specific recommendation for this "specific project" applies a New Model 3 target restoration? NO..... it doesn't!
Lets apply the exact recommendation I made based on the Exact condition of the Op's gun without any "sensationalism". It's rusty, it has zero finish, markings are soft and barely readable. At best it's a shooter. Parts have to be viable in order to represent a Parts gun. Unless we want to include "Shooter Parts"? From one shooter gun to another shooter gun?
That's my impression based on the Op's input. So, that's my approach to this project and my recommendation based on that specific evaluation. Again, this isn't a $40,000 Colt dragoon!
I also base every project evaluation on "Time" on any project. How much time am I going to spend on this project? Is this gun worth my time? How much actual "Time" do I want to spend on this project? Maybe $2 an hour for labor and time is Ok to some? but it doesn't interest me.
A Brass Wire Wheel approach saves a huge amount of time and will, if used correctly, greatly improve the appearance of the gun, stop the rust, and likely loosen the screws on the side plate that appear frozen to me.
The Op has received many applicable suggestions from the forum. It's up to him which he chooses to follow or not follow.
Safety hammerless question(s)
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