Hello, I need help for a friend. He inherited from his father, who himself had received it from his father, from an S&W 44 Russian revolver, with the original S&W tool sets for reloading. But he does not have the instructions to be able to use these tools. Would anyone have this manual.
Thanks for your help

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His weapon, with the box.

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Welcome! If your friend has access to modern reloading equipment (or current .44 Special rounds) that would be best. S & W did not produce ammunition loading tools at that time so any use of these would be based on conjecture, especially the powder dippers. The wrong type of propellant in one of those could cause serious damage.

That is a nice model 3 Target. There are members here who may be able to help restore the box.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

These tools should be retired and modern equipment used. There is also a safety issue involved to insure that powder charges are correct. Bullet casting is a separate science and there's a learning curve. I don't recommend it for the occasional shooter.

Thank you for your feedback.
My friend reloads for other calibers and all the equipment.

He just wants to know how to use these old tools properly, it's for fun. And to see if they were well made for the time, because it was with them that his grandfather made his cartridges. but the manual has been lost since.

Those plunger type tools were obsolete by the turn of the century, not shown in my 1901 Sears Roebuck catalog except for shotgun shells.

Finding a "manual" would be difficult but a serious reloader could probably puzzle them out.

As said, the dippers are likely for powders no longer made. They could be calibrated with fresh powder and perhaps used just to say he had.

You might ask around on Cast Boolits

I am not trying to contribute to the delinquency of a casual loader, but these things worked then and they will work now. Assuming all parts are present.

Those are very Rare tools in 44 Russian caliber. Here is a photo of the original early tool box instructions, etc.
Can you please post a photo of the bullet mold showing the bullet cavity for a follow up comment? As seen in one of my photos? There were several bullet types. I can identify by year if you post a photo. As an example, the mold I posted depicts the second type bullet introduced in approximately 1887 and discontinued in about 1899. Replaced with a 3rd bullet type. We can date your mold and therefore your kit by the bullet type.
These tools were part of the second kit introduced in about 1887 ( see photo) and discontinued in about 1912 but I believe they were discontinued a little earlier and the 1912 catalog simply depicts surplus items.
Thanks for posting! Rare stuff!

Murph

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My friend made some warheads with the vintage mold and it's fairly regular. I don't think he's missing a tool.
We have been confined for 3 weeks and we have just been told that it will continue for another 1 month. Here everyone is just reloading because all the stands are closed. This is also why he started making these cartridges with the old tools.
There are these two old cartridges that were with the tools.

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The mold has two different cavities. The second photo shows the 2 types of warheads.
It is the same as on the book.

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Thanks for the close up photo.

Yours is a late kit. Very exciting actually...Notice that you have 3 scoops? The earlier kit introduced in 1887 had two scoops( see earlier photo I posted). Designed for Black powder only. Your kit is the later 2nd kit that has 3 scoops. One is for a semi-smokeless load that would have been listed in the instructions. Too bad you don't have them....Original instructions would be worth a ton. The early semi-smokeless powders were identified by number.....Like...King's No.2 Semi-Smokeless Pistol powder etc.

So the larger scoop would be the standard black powder load of likely 22-25 grains of FFFG black powder and the smaller scoop would be for the black powder gallery load(ball)... The middle scoop would likely be about 10-12 grains of semi-smokeless but you'd have to read the tiny numbers on the scoop to confirm it. They should have very small writing on the sides of the cup or on the handle.

The bullet type is the 3rd variation in photo 1 having 3 bands and the second type inside lubricated bullet for the 44 Russian. All bullets for these kits post 1887 are inside lubricated. All bullets for these kits Pre-1887 were outside lubricated.

So your kit should date to the 1890's to very early 1900's when they introduced the 4th type bullet having 4 bands seen in photo 2. That 4th type bullet is probably the rarest since the kits were discontinued shortly thereafter. In fact I've never actually seen one but I have seen several for the .38 cal ( I have one in my collection) so they do exist.
Improvements in bullet designs basically involved more lubrication and stabilizing the bullet in the bore when shot by slightly elongating the design for better accuracy and lubrication.

I'm not sure what you are using to load the cartridges? I hope you are using Black powder if you are using those scoops!

Don't load smokeless powder with those antique scoops!!!
They pre-date Smokeless!

Murph

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Your friend is most fortunate. Out of curiosity what do the bullets mike out diameter wise?

I'm not sure why Alan said S&W did not make reloading tools at the time of your No. 3 New Model Target revolver. As you can see from the later posts, several different varieties of tools & molds were produced by S&W. Pls. adhere to the advice about powders given above it would be tooted to destroy this nice old S&W due to loading cartridges with modern smokeless powders. ! These old tools came in cardboard boxes and included instructions on how to reload cartridges. Murph posted a photo of a different caliber's instructions, but the method would be the same. Ed .

Don't worry, my friend only wants to recharge with these old tools with black powder. The figures that are entered undoubtedly correspond to the loading method indicated in the previous message.
7gr, 12gr and 23 gr.

The RN bullet is .431 and rond bullet .433


For the photo of the method, we could not improve its quality to read the instructions, we are sorry.

Thanks again for your help and for this information.

They did? Another learning point, thanks Ed!

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

To the original poster, are you and your friend in the USA or elsewhere?

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I send you these few photos to show you the work done. He managed to understand the method well. The pods are very good, a very small error of 0.1gr. He is proud and thinks his grandfather should be too. I also put pictures of the grandfather with this revolver.

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No, we are in France.

How was a primer seated? Just press down over it with the long plunger? That is what Harvey Donaldson did except that he used an arbor press.

Outstanding job loading and I'm amazed by your family photo's. I mean who has a photo of their Grandfather proudly holding a Target Smith and Wesson "AND" the original box! that's way beyond historical! I wonder if Grandmother was taking the photo? Whoever took that photo is the real family hero! I mean I don't think that there is another photo like that existing!!

The way the gentlemen are wearing their coats? With the top buttons only buttoned? That's very early. Also notice the Derby hats? Do you know what year this photo was taken?
I love guessing on this stuff. My guess is 1902.

If I'm right? I want a cup of French coffee and a pastry please.


Murph

Here is a link that shows a better photo of the loading instructions and some of the earlier tools from the first kit.

THE CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR

See attached photo also if you can’t open the link. The photo should be good enough to read the instructions.
Murph

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Really Enjoyed your thead and pictures .

Tres bien

__________________
Paul
S&WCA #2726

You have the most wonderful ensombe I have seen so far for this!

Wonderful!!!

And even the old Box!!!

Well, this is a Black Powder Revolver -

In my own opinion and appreciation, we have no reason to Load for these otherwise. So there should be no issues about Smokeless, since we would not ever Load with Smokeless for these Revolvers anyway.

It is not possible to over-load a Black Powder Cartridge with Black Powder.

If one understands re-Loading, the Use of the Tools is self explanatory and simple -

One Washes the spent Cartridges in hot Soap and Water, warms them to dry.

Push out spent Primers. Inspect and clean Primer Pocket recess as needed, and inspect and or gently clean passageway which goes in to the Cartridge Case.

Press and Seat new Primer and be sure it is seated fully and is flush.

Add Black Powder Charge, sized according to the kind of Shooting one has in mind - light charge and Ball seated all the way IN the Case and compressing the Powder well, for close Range or 'Gallery' Targets.

Powder charge of 23 Grains 3 F, and usual size weight range Bullet, if distance Targets, and this gets good compression, and the 23 Grain of 3F Powder Charge assumes Balloon Head Cartridge Cases and good compression.

If using Modern 'Solid Head' Cases, a somewhat smaller charge of Black Powder is necessary ( or one has the Bullet out a little farther AND compresses more than usual,) since 'Solid Head' Cartridge Cases have a smaller volume than the old Balloon Head cases, and the original 23 Grain 3f Black Powder Charge can not fit if loading normal Weight and type .44 Russian Bullets to standard over-all Cartridge length.

Just figure the Powder Charge needs to have the Bullet compressing it somewhat when the Bullet is seated, and figure out by looking, how much Black Powder that is then, or make a compressing Tool to compress the Charge, and seat the Bullet to that.

No Air Gap between Powder and Bullet with Black Powder, Powder is always to have at least some compression.

Have a good crimp so Bullets do not creep forward out of their Cases from recoil, when firing.

Use a thin pure Beeswax Wafer or prepare strips of ordinary White Paper Towel dipped in molten Beeswax and let cool on foil, then cut out Discs with a Gasket Hole Punch or Leather Hole Punch over smooth end grain Pine, so Discs are slightly larger in diameter than Bullet diameter.

Place a Disc between Powder and Bullet or Ball, if wishing to keep the Gun clean and avoid fouling and to lube the Bullet.

You can shoot a thousand rounds with this method with no cleaning, and have no fouling or Cylinder Binding.

I Cast for, load for, and shoot my 'New Model 3' Target, and also my 'New Model 3' Service Revolver, and my 'New Model 3' 'DA' who are all in .44 Russian.

Normally one does not have to re-size the Cases with these.

Clean up of the Revolver after use with Hot Soapy Water and a Nylon or Bronze Bore Brush for Barrel Bore and Cylinder Chambers-Bores...( do not use a Steel Bore Brush )...warm the Revolver to dry using a hand held Hair Drier, till Revolver is warm enough to evaporate a drop of Water in a second or two, then Oil Mechanism and anything else one likes, and put away till next use.

It is all easy, fun, and satisfying..!

The old Tools you show are just lovely and if complete, would work very nicely.

If I had them, I'd use them.

My own Loading, I have an old smaller Loading Press, and I can do a Box of "Fifty" Cartridges in less than an Hour, from start to finish, at a relaxed pace, not counting time to cast the Bullets, or to wash and clean Spent Cases.

Image below shows how I have had to hold the Bullets out a little in order to have the full 23 Grain Charge in the modern 'Starline' Solid-Head Cases, and, these chamber just fine so this can work nicely if one wishes to have full Charge of BP, in modern Cases, so long as Bullet nose does not stick out so far as to interfere with Cylinder rotation.

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

My only hope for this outstanding thread is that we respect the OP, the outstanding history and very unique photos that he was kind enough to share, and the original early antique tools posted ? and PLEASE for once ? not get into the typical heated discussion of Black powder vs Smokeless?
It would be nice for a change.

I know? Let's pretend Smokeless wasn't invented yet!

Murph

The exact date is not, but it is just before 1900.

Thank you very much for the link. I have several original boxes almost full in various calibers. Mas especially in RF. And some Winchester molds and tongs in my collection.

Is your Winchester mold a 44 Russian Also? I have one and it’s the 4th bullet with 4 bands. Winchester actually made all 4 bullet Mold types in 44 Russian. Very hard to find.
Attached is a photo of the first type. It looks exactly like the American 44 but the tool is clearly stamped 44 RUSS and the bullet Mics at .429 with pure lead.

Murph

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I have only one thing to add to this otherwise outstanding thread. New .44 Russian brass is currently available from Starline. I suggest that you should get some before it is all gone as it may never be available again when this supply is sold. 44 Russian Brass - Large Pistol - Brass Cases

How neat, recapping done with the handle of the bullet mould.

Nice posting. Should your friend decide to offer this set (and any others) for sale, please place my name on the list of "potential purchasers".

Multo grazie ... Sal Raimondi, Sr.

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

And why would that be the case? In my experience, brass for less common calibers are produced in runs, and sometimes these less common calibers are out of stock pending a demand for a run in an indeterminate future, but to say buy now as it never will be available again is a bit of an overstatement.

I did not say that. Please read and understand what I said again. I said "MAY" not "WILL".

It wouldn't be a world stopping tragedy if Starline stops producing .44R. As long as there is .44 Special and .44 Magnum cases around (which I strongly doubt will go out of supply any time soon), we will all be OK.

If I ever get around to sorting my spent brass, I have several hundred once fired (they were factory loaded REM-UMC) but very old in a WWI U.S. Govt ammo box., 7 out of 10 fired. 3 out of 10, duds. and of those that fired, perhaps 1 of 5, split. The others are fine subjects for reloading to show or display with gun.

The .44R case seems much thinner to me than the .44 Special, the .44 Magnum seems thicker (this is all observation without taking measurements). The .44 Special is the one I prefer if I need to make .44R cases.

Sal

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

What is your location?

El Pasota, I hunted for and found the parts of a S&W loading tool set in 32 S&W. My set is similar to yours and I can tell you from my research it is not the very late style... the late ones lost the “mushroom head” tops on the plungers and got knurled tops instead. I summarized the information I assembled (and what was sent to me) for a brief article for the Antique Reloading Tool Collector Tools Association. In it I copied down the instructions from about the 1890s and described the major changes in the tools. If you will send me a PM with your e-mail address, I’ll gladly send you a digital copy of the article.

Pictured below is my “set” with a later mallet and primer punch.

Froggie

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PS to last: I’m on my iPad right now, and working pretty much from memory, but I will say that I was able to reconstruct a complete set of instructions by comparing and transcribing fragments from a couple of sources. Also, for whoever asked about reinstalling fresh primers... that’s the function of the hole in the bullet mould and the stud across from it. It works just like some of the early Winchester and Ideal tools. Probably my favorite aspect about the set is its completeness. At most, there may have been a small wooden mallet (looked like a judge’s gavel) included originally, but all of the essential stuff is there, including two parts I’ve been unable to get for my set! With the tools there and complete instructions one could load with those tools just as S&W intended 120 years ago.

Moderators: my Journal article is my own intellectual property, so if you would like a copy with images to post as a sticky, just let me know. It’s not as scholarly and in depth as some, but answers every major question and corrects a couple of errors in this thread.

Sincerely,
Green Frog

Here is my reconstructed set of the instructions that would have appeared on the box top your loading set originally came in. Note that they are for the 32, and were early enough to use the wooden primer punch instead of the steel one in yours. Also, they predate the crimping die, which I think yours has. They also don't mention the special plunger to seat the round ball down into the case... but I've never even seen one of those plungers though obviously they exist.


To remove the exploded cap: Place the head of the shell in the base, and force the cap out with the wooden punch.

To open mouth of crimped shells: Press the shell in the short barrel at the large end: place it on the base with the head in the countersink; and press in the short plunger using sufficient force to straighten the edge of the shell.

To recap the shells: Place the shell in the hole on one side of the mould (with the head inside place the cap in the orifice of the head, and press it home by the handle of the mould.

To Charge the shell: Press it in the Reloader (at the large end place it in the base with the head in the countersink, put in powder with the small measure, using no more than one measure full, place the bullet in the Reloader, butt down, and drive it home with the plunger, until the shoulder of the plunger strikes the Reloader, (using the hand or mallet.)

To grease the cartridges: Dip the bullets, up to the shells, in melted beef tallow.

Copied from an original S&W box, ca 1889

I am also including a picture of a later set (ca 1900) showing the later style knurled handle instead of the earlier "mushroom style." These tools are for the 38 S&W M and are owned by a friend, Landy44.

Regards,
Froggie

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Hey Froggie,
Nice post. Say I would like to read your research. How do I go about that? Also, do you have a catalog photo that actually shows those 38 special tools?
Thanks,

Murph

Hello,
Do any of you have a Date for my molds? 32, 38 and 44

__________________
Daniel
SWCA#2471

With photos it's better

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Daniel
SWCA#2471

danaflex, the all steel moulds are the second variation, made from about the second year of production until sometime about 1890+/-. Then the "Peanut Handle" moulds went into production and continued until the end of the S&W reloading tools.

Murph, send me a PM... I need your e-mail so we can send attachments and big files back and forth.

El Pasota - how are you doing with your research? Did my info help any?

Froggie

thank you so much Froggie

__________________
Daniel
SWCA#2471

Hi Pasota,

Deux petites questions :
Tu fait quel rechargement pour la balle ronde ?
quelle poids pour la 44 ogival ?

__________________
Daniel
SWCA#2471

I have zero knowledge about these tools but found this thread to be extremely interesting almost to the point of mesmerizing. The history lesson here along with documentation makes this one of the most interesting threads I’ve read in a while. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't encourage me! I go off chasing rabbits like this all the time and if anybody says they like what I've done it's like saying "Sic 'em" to a dog!

Froggie

Daniel,
The bullet molds you posted are like Froggie already mentioned, Post 1887. Known by collectors as the "Peanut mold" due to the Peanut shaped wood grips. Those are part of the "Improved kit".

I just wanted to comment on the design of the bullets. Bullets most definitely can be dated by design. Changes in design are documented and present a distinct timeline by various mold and tool manufactures of that ERA.

(Photo 1) shows one of your .38 caliber molds and the earliest design. This .38 caliber Smith & Wesson bullet was introduced in 1887 "industry wide". Not only found on Smith & Wesson molds/tools but also Ideal, Winchester, BGI, UMC, and others. It replaced the older outside lubricated bullet from 1876-1886.

This bullet also was "Discontinued" in about 1895 timeframe and replaced with an improved design having 3 lubrication bands. (PHOTO 3). So we can date that mold/tool as the earlier mold/tool from 1887-1895. Manufacturing trends are very solid. Once an improved variation of "ANY PRODUCT" is introduced? The old design becomes obsolete.

(Photo 2&3) depicts your "Target" bullet .38-44 and also can be used for the .38 special. This bullet was not commonly used until after 1900.

However, the .38 M&P was introduced in 1899 and was tailored to the bullet shown in (Photo 4). This was "THE" .38 special bullet of its day and remained so for many years until the Semi-Wad cutter introduced better shopping power for Police use.

The final mold you have is probably the rarest of the bunch. That is shown in (Photo 5). That is "Specific" to the .32-44 Target New Model 3 and is listed as such in many of my old loading catalogs. It is NOT the standard .32 S&W bullet for various pistols.


So in my opinion there were a lot of Smith & Wesson boxed kits that were specific to caliber and model. What I'm suggesting is that there were boxed kits that were labeled: "Target .32-44", "Target .38-44", "Target .44 Russian", .38 M&P, and standard calibers like .38 caliber, .32 caliber, etc.
Those kits having the standard bullet designed for standard revolvers on the tool within the box.

So obviously there is a much bigger picture here and many more Peanut mold/tools that were made to specific calibers and guns of that time. Beginning in 1887 and ending in about 1912.

Finding them? That's the real challenge!

Murph

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Not to be accused of too much thread drift here, but do you have access to similar pictures for the 32 cal series of moulds? I’d like to nail down the age of my Peanut Handle mould as well as the earlier, all steel one.

El Pasota, I hope you are getting some beneficial information from this thread, I know I am!

Froggie

Charlie,
It's not really a thread drift since we were originally trying to date EL Pasota's Grandfathers kit. So in keeping with bullet type? The second kit had the iron molds. From approximately 1876-1886. Other references point to 1874 but I believe that was still the super rare first kit with brass mold etc.

The Second kit was a blend with Remington molds so it can be confusing since Remington bullets are found in the same exact mold design.

(Photo 1) shows Remington 32 molds that prove a transition from the earlier outside lubricated two band to the latest 3 band outside lubricated bullet.

( Photo 2 ) was Smith & Wessons first "outside lubricated" Single lubrication groove bullet that was designed to have no case crimp and lubrication outside of the case. This design from my studies never changed from 1876-1886 with the .32 S&W and the .38 S&W and possibly the 44 Russian also! ( I'm not including the ultra rare revolving rifle bullet)

The 44 Russian is a horse of a different color. There are 3 "Possible" bullet types for the Russian. The earliest looks exactly like photo 2. That's the only one that is "Proven" to be an Actual 44 Russian bullet.
I don't have photo's readily available for the 44 Russian but the second bullet has two lubrication lands that are also outside lubricated.( Looks exactly like an oversized Remington bullet that's seen in photo 1). The simple fact is it might actually be a Remington bullet!!

The 3rd type I have in my collection is actually an inside lubricated flat nose bullet. So the Russian is an odd one. It might simply be that we are mixing in Remington bullets with Smith & Wesson singular design regarding the .44 cal and if I was a betting man? That would be my guess.

(Photo 3) Now to the Peanut molds for .32 cal? This is the early bullet 1887-1895.

(Photo 4) Transitional bullet that included the .32 Long from about 1895 to about 1902-3.

(Photo 5) The final bullet type from about 1902-1912 that was common to both the Long and Short.

All of blue colored bullet types photo'd should be seen as "available" in the Peanut mold during the applicable years and I believe they are out there.

Murph

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My first reloading tools



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__________________
Daniel
SWCA#2471