into S&W antiques. Resisted the urge for a long time, sticking with Hand Ejectors, but this came up and was just too pretty to pass up!

Also, it's chambered in .38 S&W and I have a number of later guns chambered in it-a fun shooting cartridge. Roy says it shipped Nov 1892. Hope it's righteous, seems all the right parts are the right colors and the bore looks unfired.
This might be the start of something.

Don't know if the box is original, but is it correct? (not a big box collector). I'm also curious about the stamp on the end label. Any ideas?





and the box label

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

WOW , what a great find . congrats . maybe some day i'll find one like that . really nice . thanks for sharing . kenny

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Too good

Very nice dipping job with that toe! I look at them when they come up and think that it would be fun to get one and play with it. You are planning on shooting it? Congrats!

Thanks! Yes I'm planning on trying her out- a least a little. Sort of feels like getting into a time machine.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

That is stunning.

I always wanted one of these but never quite got around to it. Very jealous, what a beauty.

Cheerio,

Roy

Museum quality. White gloves only! Sorry I can’t help you out with the box? But others on the forum know a lot about them.

Murph

Thanks Murph. I saw it and said wow- it looks new!

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

I don't have my reference material available but the stamp MIGHT be the telegraphic, shorthand, code used to order these revolvers directly from the factory by the distributors. Nice 'toe-dip'.

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Mike Maher #283

Thanks Mike, that sounds reasonable.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

thats beautiful.

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"I'm feeling MUCH better now"

The end stamp may be a distributor's inventory number. is there any trace of the SN written on the bottom of the Box? It is supposed to be written in grease pen.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

The ones I've seen here look like pencil. In any event, I'll need good lighting.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

That thing is CLEAN. Mine is fully functional but looks like a drowned rat compared to yours.

IF you do fire it, black powder ONLY!!!

Having said that, I wouldn't fire this one as it is in such pristine condition. I would locate one with some wear and use that one to shoot.

End label is correct for the era your gun was made. White and orange are proper for Nickel and green for Blued revolvers. I have not seen any stampings like the 3831-4W from the factory, so agree it is some type of store stamp. Serial bunbers from this era were often written with what I call a carpenter's pencil, while grease markings are more common for the Twentieth Century.

The box construction is proper, with cloth covered pasteboard construction. Shortly after your revolver was made, the factory started using pebbled paper covering that lasted into the very early 1900s, then back to cloth for some time. Black was one of many colored boxes are also an indicator that the box is period correct. Take a look at page 52 in SWCA4 for more details. If you can, take a picture of the inside label, since there were some changes made to the text during this era.

Here is a little brother to your box from the that holds an 1880s 32 DA. I think the color was faded green, but one never knows what all the colors and styles were originally used for?

Contrary to many notes you read about not using smokeless ammo, it is pretty much a fact that modern standard loadings from Remington and Winchester are actually lower pressure than original black powder. The usual statement that any part can break on these old revolvers is true for both BP and smokeless, but you ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT blow up your gun with smokeless. The high condition warrants some consideration to adding normal wear, or heaven forbid you drop it on the concrete, if it goes to the range too often, but I feel that, with all my guns, including tip-ups that one should understand how well they operate and what it must have felt like to shoot a vintage revolver!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks Gary for the box info. I'll post some interior box shots this week.

Re: smokeless powder, comparing the pressures, I'm confident I won't blow it up. Considering the condition, this one will be definitely not be on the frequent shooter list, but I don't think being shot very occasionally will adversely affect it-it already has a turn line similar to my later high condition guns (which also get occasionally shot).

A lot of the joy I get from old firearms is in the using of them.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Boy that’s a nice looking revolver. Congratulations!

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I told you not to use Lifebuoy

Incredible piece. Looks wonderful!

I found this one a year ago. It was my first top break and was supposed to be my only one. Now 1/3 of the safe is full of them. They are quite addicting.

I shoot mine with lite smokeless loads I make myself and they work fine. I believe in their 1909 catalog S&W advised that smokeless cartridges from leading manufacturers will "do excellent work in our revolvers".

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I think that the major concern is that typically more black powder was loaded into black powder cartridges than in smokeless ones. Black powder can be compressed however, if you fill a cartridge with smokeless powder to the max and compress it, you create a different animal.

In other words, black powder cartridges contained more powder by volume than is required with smokeless. Using a comparable volume of smokeless powder possibly could create dangerous pressure levels.

Again, this is merely my recollection and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

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James Redfield
LM #497

So, do you folks recommend a strip down, clean and lube or keeping the gun intact and just spraying it out?

I imagine Chicoine's book has the process in it? (ordered a copy).
For some reason I'm more leery of this one than a Hand Ejector- I mess around inside those all the time.

Guess it's just lack of familiarity.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

This guy recently posted his antique find, reminds me of yours...

Should I keep it or sell it? That is the question

If you are familiar with how to remove the screws without screwing up the slot, then I would remove the sideplate and inspect. If clean, spray Barricade or a synthetic oil for protection and lubrication. Wet it down and use compressed air to blow the excess out. I can't see how it would be dirty inside given its condition, but is probably dry as a bone inside.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I agree that the transition from BP to smokeless was not without its problems and was likely the basis for even today's reluctance to make the switch. The reality is that many of S&W antique revolvers remained exactly the same guns that were manufactured well into the Twentieth Century. By the 1880s, steel was highly refined and capable of exceeding 30,000 psi tensile strength. It was not until the 1920s and beyond that steel improved significantly.

If early reloaders were to reload by filling the case with BP and seating the bullet for many years and got hold of a can of that newfangled smokeless powder, filling the case was most likely a major problem. I believe that is why S&W was so adamant about not warrantying their revolvers with smokeless only to change their minds a few years later, extolling its virtues. Nothing changed except perceptions.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

"..I would remove the sideplate..". While some are able to get the sideplate back in place properly, I do not recommend it unless one is a Pro at this. In my opinion, if it isn't replaced perfectly then the almost-invisible factory joint between the frame and sideplate becomes a visible eyesore. I vote to spray and lube.

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Mike Maher #283

Great piece. Don't know much about relative valuations aside from what's in SCSW, but that was a lot more dear than this one.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

So, a lot trickier than a HE? Easy enough to flush with Remcleaner and spray lube it. Is there some trick to it besides tapping the other side to remove it and pressing it back in?

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

For the benefit of the OP?

I just want you to be safe with that gorgeous Smith. In an original box no less.

What's really important with the Antique .38 Smith and Wesson cartridge is that you only chamber the correct and unmolested round. There are MANY rounds out there that are actually reloaded by whomever. They might be shiny and new looking and in a pretty plastic see through box? Even in an original box? but they have been reloaded! Often they are loaded "TOO HOT" for the top break revolvers. They were reloaded for the later swingout cylinder revolvers which are much stronger and can sustain much higher pressures than the older top breaks.

In fact finding an original unmolested box of .38 Smith & Wesson rounds isn't real easy. Oh, I know,, I mail order mine right? That doesn't mean they are unmolested!
I also don't ever recommend that you fire loose rounds or 1/2 empty original boxes of ammo. Dangerous proposition for Antique firearms!

Often reloaders use .38 special cases and trim them down. Which is Ok but you have to know what you're doing. Or they use older cases and shine them up in the tumbler. Problem being they can be stretched beyond safe limits and run-up on the case stop that is milled in the chamber.

(PHOTO 1) Shows the typical case stop in top break .38 Smith & Wesson revolver cylinders of the Antique ERA. If you were to chamber a case that is too long with a standard load of smokeless powder? NOT double charged but "STANDARD" the result can be seen in (photo 2).

This was NOT the result of a DOUBLE charge as some would have you believe? It was a standard "FACTORY" loaded cartridge that was chambered in the wrong cylinder.

Specifically? A STANDARD FACTORY loaded 38 special shoved into a 38 Long colt cylinder with "CASE STOPS" milled in the chambers..... What is really unusual about the Colt Lightning that came apart in this photo? is that some actually have case stops and some don't. If there was no case stop milled in this chamber? The gun likely would have handled the factory smokeless standard load but because the case "Ran Up" on the case stop?

The case could not expand with discharge and the resulting pressure burst the gun, blew the top strap and injured the shooter. I bought this gun from the range master where the incident occurred who confirmed the remaining cartridges were factory loaded. I use to buy burst guns from this range really cheap for the parts years ago.

So just a friendly warning to protect yourself and that beautiful antique Smith? Make absolutely sure that you are using fresh, unmolested ammo that is "FACTORY LOADED" before you pull the trigger?

This is just one of many reasons why I personally load my own! Period!

Murph

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Thanks Murph.

I sing the exact same song over in the Hand Ejector forum when I admonish new Ladysmith owners to NOT, NOT, NOT chamber .22 Long Rifle in their Ladysmiths chambered in .22 S&W Long. Not as spectacular as a blown cylinder, but a fractured forcing cone is just as sorrowful.

Point well taken.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

"Is there some trick to it besides tapping the other side to remove it and pressing it back in?". Not really as long as the top front of the sideplate aligns with the edge of the frame and the plate is pressed solidly in the frame with a press. Too often the sideplate is pressed in by hand leaving a misalignment to the frame and a shadow line around the sideplate where it meets the frame. I'm no expert but often I can see that the revolver sideplate has been removed/replaced as the factory 'almost-invisible' joint becomes very visible.

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Mike Maher #283

I think that the easiest and safest solution is for you to send the gun to me. Although originally a shooter, I have become mostly a collector. I WILL NOT shoot the gun and merely keep it as a treasured part of my collection. This will solve all the dilemmas regarding overloading cases, removing the side plate and or worrying about cleaning and lubing the interior.

I will more than happily send you occasional photos showing you how safe and sound this Smith and Wesson is as long as I am its caretaker.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Some new pics.

The gun is "stiff" like it has tight tolerances, no push off and the bore and chambers have no scuffs or anything- very shiny.



Star is "in the white" is that correct?



Box pics: SN of box matches- so is this THE Box?


Inside of lid and box:


no label in bottom, just fuzzy cardboard

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

That is interesting that the ejector is in the white. Is there a star next to the serial number on the butt?

Murph

No star or marks anywhere.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

The ejector could be blue or "in the white". There does not seem to be a correlation between blue being X-Model and 'in the white' being Y-Model.

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Mike Maher #283

Thanks Mike, as said I'm a newb with these. Good to know!

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Sprayed it out with Remaction cleaner and foamed it with BreakFree. Action is now nice and "crisp". There was semi-dried lube inside so it's good to go for now. BTW grips match (scribed number)

Am i correct there's supposed to be some drag on the hinge? I.e. the hinge holds position if I'm not pushing on the barrel?

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Well,
When you find them in like new condition? All the tolerances are tight so that makes sense. Keep it oiled lightly to minimize wear. The dragline will worsen if you keep working the action without oiling the bolt. Drop a few oil drops into the bolt and I always put a film of light grease on the cylinder in line with the bolt to tame that line. It can become very unsightly and negatively impact value.

I've seen dealers selling brand new revolvers in the box go ballistic if someone works the action. It is true though. If you start a drag line the value drops. Mint is mint...keep it that way or except the value loss.

I personally would never consider shooting this one. Get yourself a beat up example and pop away. No harm done. All my shooters are brown, refinished, or low finish, and I thoroughly enjoy shooting them.

Murph

That's SOP for me. Good advice all around

Fortunately for me, it already has a slight one.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

A slight drag line is expected for a revolver of this quality and age. These were tools of the era and nobody was thinking of collectability. It is doubtful that very many had extra cash that could be squandered on a safe queen when new. In my opinion, the drag line concern is a modern collector invention used to differentiate the mega-buck collector from the average Joe. And, Thank You for not removing that sideplate. That revolver is very nice and I'm glad to see that it has survived all these years without being molested.

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Mike Maher #283

In the long run mixing lubricants and things similar to wd40, kroil, other penetrants will in the long run turn the gun oil or lubricant into a sticky goo. the penetrants tend to wash out the lighter carbon chain oils first. I retired from a nuclear station a few years ago. any failure was followed by an extensive and expensive root cause witch hunt. cost us millions using crc556. loosen up a stiff or frozen action with a penetrant throw it in a vault and some years later you will think someone put super glue in it. any time you use a penetrant you need to disassemble and clean out the penetrant then use your go to gun oil. even it will eventually turn into tar. too much oil grease is the bane of a hunting or defence gun. it gets thick when it gets cold. more is never better unless you just want a wall hanger. by the way have any of you ever heard of using one of those food bad vacuum sealers to store a gun?

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RADAR