Pretty little Lemon Squeezer with holster

VeritasVincit · #1 05-19-2020, 01:18 AM

This is a .32 Safety Hammerless 2nd model from 1902-1909 with a 3" bbl and some halfway decent blueing and mother-of-pearl handles. The story goes, it belonged to someone's grandmother who kept it in her top drawer in this little vest pocket holster for years and years.
The holster itself is interesting- it has its own maker's mark and serial number, though I know nothing of it or when it could be from. Any ideas?
The pistol has a broken hand spring. Numrich is fresh out, which is too bad. I'm starting to go through my collection and take a look at small projects I could be doing during this Coronavirus lockdown.
Thanks for looking!

BMur · #2 05-19-2020, 10:46 AM

The gun is neat but the holster is exceptional.

I collect pocket holsters of this type. They were very popular from the early 1890's until the late 1920's. They were titled the Russet Pocket Pistol Holster designed to fit into the trouser pocket. Pockets on early pants were deep and well made(Thick material). As was the flat leather backing. Designed to reside against the upper thigh and support the pistol quite firmly in the pocket so that it would maintain a fixed position for quick access if needed. They became popular in the late Victorian Era when it was considered "Unsightly" to be seen with an exposed firearm in public. So, they became "Extremely" popular with the various Police Departments. A Police marked holster of this type is very valuable and rare!

The most common were mail ordered with no maker marks and often have a model number stamped on the front or back. Usually has an intended caliber of revolver or later Semi-Auto. The most common were .32 and .38 calibers. Larger calibers are very rare. (See photo from an 1895 Montgomery Wards catalog)

You can find most any maker mark on them from Denver to San Francisco to San Antonio, Texas. When they are marked the value soars. I've been offered as much as $400 for my San Francisco marked example and Police Department marked examples go even higher!!

I can't make out the marking on yours. Can you please provide a very clear photo of all markings? front and back and I might be able to translate.

Thanks for posting.

Murph

VeritasVincit · #3 05-19-2020, 01:02 PM

Thanks so much for that! I did my best to get photos but the stamp is just not quite there in the lower half so I got creative and took a bunch of rubbings, then using the rubbing and referring to the actual stamp, I traced it out as best I could.

Aside from the stamp and the number 1136 above it, there are no other stamps or markings.

I have wondered for some time if it would be wise to apply neatsfoot oil or some other leather preservative to this holster. Opinions on that? I haven't done it as I know using the wrong thing could ruin it- I do boots and tack and tan my own hides with a variety of products but I'm scared to death to mess up anything antique.

Sistema1927 · #4 05-19-2020, 01:07 PM

Left hand pocket holster. Neat.

turnerriver · #5 05-19-2020, 01:23 PM

Hibbard , Spencer, Bartlett & Co. is the maker/marketer-a very large hardware store concern that eventually morphed into True Value.They sold sporting goods as did most hardware stores in the early 1900’s.

Most makers offered at least one model of pocket holster, here’s an offering by Hoyt in their 1935 brochure.

A.H. Hardy 1940’s brochure, this example has a button tab.

3 Iver Johnson marked pocket holsters.

A Colt pocket auto holster.

A Heiser pocket holster from the very early 1900’s.

Regards,
turnerriver

gmborkovic · #6 05-19-2020, 01:41 PM

from Murphs add, 0.30$ per holster, Highway robbery! Im not paying it!
A quarter is in line for that holster. Scrooge McMike

BMur · #7 05-19-2020, 01:48 PM

That's a great possibility turnerriver. ( Excellent collection)

It just seems that the Logo is SHB & Co? this suggests a Leather Goods maker but I'm not sure of which. I've never seen this logo before and my list of Leather Goods makers of that period is several pages long. Possibly SH&B Noyes of Boston but more research is required. They produced many leather goods. Belts, shoes, straps, chaps, suspenders, holsters, etc. Much better quality than most. It appears that this holster is of better quality leather but I'd have to see it in hand.

Normally the earlier Major Distributor did not mark the goods that they sold. They primarily Distributed Goods made by someone else and are so marked. Not always though. As time went on the surviving Distributors like Sears and Montgomery Wards would put their Company mark on many products that they sold. Like Appliances? but that was much later.

The numbers on the holster indicate a model number so the Leather Maker had several models of holsters. Each would have a model number stamped on them.

Also, most of the holsters sold by mail order from "early" Major Distributors had only a model number and caliber stamp on the leather. Sometimes a barrel length also which is a neat feature.
Anything is possible though. So many Distributors back then and so many products I'm sure so you never see them all. Not even close!

Oh, as far as preserving your holsters? I only use saddle soap because it will not stain the leather. It only softens it a little and preserves it with a wax (not oil) based material. I have never had any issues using this product with my holster collection and the results over the years has been very good overall. There are always issues with mold so storage in a dry environment is essential.

Other's I'm sure will have different opinions of what to use. I just recommend you stay away from any oil based products. They will stain the leather big time.

Murph

VeritasVincit · #8 05-19-2020, 02:44 PM

Good leads! I did find a HSB Co. holster for sale on guns international with the same cartouche stamp, so turnerriver's got that in the bag.

Thank you all for your input. I'll hit this fella with a bit of saddle soap next time I do boots. Now I'm thinking it might be fun to letter this gun. It's not the pinnacle of my collection by a long shot (harr harr) but the holster and a bit of a story gives it that much more importance. I should definitely have a list of guns by order of priority for lettering.

I was thinking of building a spreadsheet to organize my collection- I've got so many little double actions and hand ejectors I can't remember where they all came from any more. I opened the safe this weekend to discover I have 3 ladysmiths. Expect to see more content from me as I dig through everything! Time to reup my membership with SWCA and get back into it, I guess.

BMur · #9 05-19-2020, 04:06 PM

I know the internet is full of a lot of information that we tend to rely on?

I'm just very use to researching for myself since there is so much information out there that is honestly based on someone else's research. (Plagiarism?) I suppose that's why I upset so many folks? I have to see it for myself before I swallow the pill?

Below is a photo of the only Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett logo that I am aware of. The Catalogs that I have in my collection date back to 1884 and the logo is consistent. They also do not advertise any leather goods in any of the catalogs that I have? The photo below of the orignal logo is found on pocket knives, axes, lawn equipment, letterheads, "ON their actual building?", etc.

So, I'm wondering where the source of the leather holster "Logo" identification is found regarding the Op's pocket holster logo? I'm still seeing the S' as being the first letter of the leather logo? If you look closely at the OP's first photo? You can clearly see that the S' is "Stamped over" the H'. So it represents the first letter in the Logo.

Like I mentioned before, I've never seen this logo before in my studies. I did pull a search and found many claiming this logo to be Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett? All of them seem to be faded and not really strong? but I can find no source data.

So, I'm still believing this to actually be a leather manufacturers logo? It's either that or Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett made up a new logo just to stamp on leather holsters? That they didn't advertise in early catalogs? and accidentally stamped the S' first? Getting folks to change their minds once it's excepted in the collectable world is like uprooting an Oak. I'm not going there. It's not worth it.

I'd just like to know where the source data on this logo was found? Since it looks nothing like the original logo that was used for decades?

Murph

VeritasVincit · #10 05-19-2020, 06:35 PM

That's a fair take. It was just credited as such on an auction, with no provenance documented. I took it at face value. The search continues!

VeritasVincit · #11 05-19-2020, 06:57 PM

I looked up some older Hibbard, Spencer, and Bartlett Co catalogs. The first I checked was from 1910 and it did have a leather pocket holster, model number 1136, for a 3-3.5" bbl revolver.

The second one I found was from 1891 and while it lacked anything regarding this specific model, I was surprised to see the cartouche at the top of the page. See attached photo. I might poke around some more to try to narrow down the year this holster may have become available.

BMur · #12 05-19-2020, 07:18 PM

Wow!
There it is! I guess my catalogs are all too old.
Thanks Shipmate!

Murph

H Richard · #13 05-19-2020, 07:20 PM

As far as leather treatment goes, I was always led to believe that neatsfoot oil would soften leather and deteriorate stitching. When I wore a lot of western boots and for my holsters I use Blackrock.

moosedog · #14 05-19-2020, 07:29 PM

Very cool rig. I really like that holster.
Please, no neat's foot oil. The only thing I put on vintage leather is Connelly
Hide Care. A bit expensive but it goes a long way. Google it.
It is what museum's use and European Sportscar manufacturers recommend for their leather interiors. It will not harm the leather like products with petroleum distillates do.

crossv · #15 05-20-2020, 09:48 AM

Since we have several leather experts in this thread, I would look forward to current best practice opinion for antique leather like holsters and belts (as opposed to working or upholstery leather). I always used Pecard in the past, but a number of prior posts on the forum showed at preference for Black Rock over Pecard. Now comes a vote for Connelly. What is the expert consensus?

CB

turnerriver · #16 05-20-2020, 10:42 AM

Consensus is hard to reach. My collection runs from the 1980’s back to about 1900, the product I use exclusively is Blackrock Leather N’ Rich. I switched from Pecard but have no experience with Connelly.
Regards,
turnerriver

browerpatch · #17 12-28-2020, 10:16 PM

I'm glad to run across this thread. I've got a .32 Lemon Squeezer, and I'm beginning the search for a period holster.

Wiregrassguy · #18 12-28-2020, 11:09 PM

Black Rock Leather N' Rich!!