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  #1  
Old 05-23-2020, 09:51 AM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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Default New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR

Picked up this well worn new model 3 target revolver. It has an early 2 digit serial number. It actually chambers the 32 revolving rifle cartridge. Still has the original rear non adjustable target sight that has the same serial number as the frame. Think I will send in for a letter on this one.
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Old 05-23-2020, 10:28 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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That's just neat.
I bet it weighs a ton, my .38-44 Target was heavy and not as comfortably balanced as a .44.
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:23 AM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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Default .320 Revolving Rifle

Wow,
A couple of members were recently talking about the 32/44 Target possibly being chambered for the .320 Revolving rifle round. Looks like you found at least a 32 cal example? I never thought about a low serial number being a candidate for this chambering? But it does make sense since the Revolving rifle pre-dates the 32/44.

Yeah, I’d say a letter is a must have on this one. I recommend you mention to Mr Jinks that the chambers are bored straight through unlike the 32/44. Thanks kindly for posting. I hope it letters as a .320 cartridge! That would be super rare!

Actually, it could be another caliber though. Did you mic the chambers? Since it doesn’t have target sights? It could be a standard 32 S&W. If it was though, it probably would not chamber the .320 Revolving rifle case? So this is a rare bird for sure!

Murph

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Old 05-23-2020, 11:46 AM
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It has a rear target sight. The front looks like is changed. The early rear target sight were fixed on this model. It has that with the serial number that matches the frame. Barrel serial number matches the frame too.
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:57 AM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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I'm the doubting type and I hope I'm proven wrong but I believe the cylinder has been modified. I think I'm seeing remnants of the .32-44 ring (case stop) in the cylinder bores. Also, the extractor has been replaced incorrectly which makes me suspicious. All said, it's a neat revolver and I hope it is a .320 RR chambering as I have never seen one outside of the rifle.
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Old 05-23-2020, 02:48 PM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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Default Additional Photos?

Can we see a good photo of some of the chambers and also the face of the cylinder with it removed from the barrel assembly?

Thanks

Murph
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Old 05-23-2020, 02:54 PM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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I agree the odds are pretty low thats its originally in 320 RR but here is an article that gives me hope. Its a review written in 1887. Have never seen one originally chambered in 320 RR or one converted to 320 RR.

How can you tell the extractor is installed incorrectly? I'm in the process of giving it a good clean. Might be able to tell better then if the chambers have been altered.
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Old 05-23-2020, 04:04 PM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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Mark, the photo showing the head of the .320 R cartridge also shows a punch-dot on the extractor leg just below the cartridge. That punch-dot should align with the serial number. The extractor is clocked one charge hole off which indicates that the extractor has been out of the cylinder.
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Old 05-23-2020, 04:08 PM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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Without a factory letter it is just a bunch of guesses. My guess would be a 32 S&W step in the chamber or just powder burn ring from shooting the short cartridge. Which is rarer, 32S&W or 320 RR. If there was ever a S&W that needs a letter it is a two digit NM3 in 32 S&W!! Since Roy states that this model was available in many calibers, including 32 S&W and 320 RR, that would be good enough for me to know that both were made. How many is the question, but maybe this is one of the few.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:38 AM
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Post us some close ups of the Rear Sight?
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
That's just neat.
I bet it weighs a ton, my .38-44 Target was heavy and not as comfortably balanced as a .44.
My .32 - 44 weighs 1281 Grams, or, 2.824 Pounds.

My .38 -44 weighs 1187 Grams, or, 2.616 Pounds.

My NM3 .44 Russian Target, 1089 Grams, or 2.400 Pounds

The .32 - 44 for sure is a weighty one!

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Old 05-24-2020, 05:26 AM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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For now these are the best pictures I have of the rear sight.
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Boulder350 View Post
For now these are the best pictures I have of the rear sight.
Okeydoke!...interesting it has no usual Screws to adjust the Blade...

Say, can you run a Bronze Bore Brush with some Hot Soapy Water an or other Cleaning media through those Cylinder Chambers, and then post us a fresh picture looking in to them?

Images so far kind of look a little like someone may have re-Chambered this from the Stepped-Chamber-to-bore of the .32 - 44, via reaming the Cylinder Bore and eliminating the 'Step' so they could use the .32 RR Cartridges.

It'd be nice to have some better images and with the Chambers well cleaned to see better.

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Old 05-24-2020, 07:28 PM
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That two digit serial number beginning in "1" is so cute!!

And in keeping with internet tradition of x-ing out the last digit, leaves just the "1"...just put a big smile on my face anyway, so cool.!!!
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Old 05-24-2020, 09:34 PM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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Default Simple Solution

I recommend a simple solution to determine the original caliber?

Simply, mic the bore.

See photo's below. The .32 Smith & Wesson is .312 bullet diameter. It never changed from its origin in 1878. The bullet design changed from original outside lubrication to inside lubrication in 1887 and several types of bullets after the turn of the century? but the "diameter" remained the same.

The .32-44 Target is listed as .321 diameter inside lubrication. That's a "HUGE" difference. One thing is for certain. If this New Model 3 with early target rear sight was and is an original .32 Smith and Wesson? The bore "will" mic at .312 Groove diameter! NO Question!

If it's an original .32-44 or perhaps the ultra rare .320 Revolving rifle caliber? It "will" mic at .321.

NO Guessing.

At least this way we can eliminate the .32 S&W without the factory letter "OR" confirm it actually is a .32 S&W caliber which would be a great find indeed!

Murph
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:52 AM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR  
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Cleaned up the revolver cylinder and took a few more pictures. It looks to me like it is modified from the 32-44 to fire the 320 RR cartridge a long time ago. The corrosion looks like it was fired a lot with the 32-44 cartridge after the modification too. Have not seen one modified like this before.

Sent away for a letter in May to see where it went and what the original configuration was. Hope to get the letter soon.
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
That's just neat.
I bet it weighs a ton, my .38-44 Target was heavy and not as comfortably balanced as a .44.
That New Model #3 Target Model converted to .22 I post here all the time feels bizarrely light compared to what I expected. But I haven’t owned a .44 Russian for a long time to remember how it would compare.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:19 PM
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Default Bored straight through

Mark,
It seems to me that you could use the 32-20 rifle case and both size & trim the case to the end of the cylinder throat. Then load the .323 bullet to any depth desired. Should be very accurate using that loading technique. In fact likely more accurate since you could get more black powder into the longer case.

Murph
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Old 06-20-2020, 12:40 PM
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Mark,
It seems to me that you could use the 32-20 rifle case and both size & trim the case to the end of the cylinder throat. Then load the .323 bullet to any depth desired. Should be very accurate using that loading technique. In fact likely more accurate since you could get more black powder into the longer case.

Murph
Hi Murph!

No, that would be a mess..!

Since his Cylinder Chambers are now "Bored Straight Through", unless he wants a big mess, he needs for the Cartridge Case to be like the .320 RR, and to be the full length of the Cylinder.

Otherwise, if using a shorter Cartridge Case, he will have a really nasty unsupported Bullet "jump" and massive Blow-By, leading, and terrible accuracy.

.32-20 Case is too short to begin with for this application, of what is in effect, same as the .320 RR Cylinder chambering.

.32-20 Brass can be shortened, expanded, and made to serve for the .32 - 44 Cartridge, but not for the longer .320 RR.
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Old 06-20-2020, 11:19 PM
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Default Case length?

Hi Phil,
I'm wiping the egg of my shirt right now....


Actually, I would agree with you "if" the cylinder had not been drilled out? Because the cylinder chambers were drilled out? and I strongly suspect they were done by a non professional so that basically means that they are not "True" round. So basically applying a case length to the end of the chamber wouldn't have much positive impact in my opinion. Blow by as you mentioned would be inevitable no matter what you do here.

In fact, running the case to the end of the chamber would likely make them very hard to extract. The cases would expand like a lollie pop when fired. Sort of like the end of a blunderbust? Gross case expansion is the result of a chamber that is NOT bored out correctly.

My suggestion of just using the 32-20 case I stand by since it would function well and not impact the area the chambers were drilled out.

I also believe the gun would pattern shoot at a respectable distance and it would not be difficult to manufacture and "safely" use this type of case arrangement. Nor would it be costly. Plus it would be fun to shoot!

Any other arrangement would likely be not only costly? but would basically get stuck in the chambers and function poorly.

On a bad day you might even break the cam trying to extract the ballooned out shells? Ahh, NOW that would be a bad thing!! Maybe even a "BIGGER MESS"? Egg back at you Phil.


Murph
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:07 PM
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Hi Phil,
I'm wiping the egg of my shirt right now....


Actually, I would agree with you "if" the cylinder had not been drilled out? Because the cylinder chambers were drilled out? and I strongly suspect they were done by a non professional so that basically means that they are not "True" round. So basically applying a case length to the end of the chamber wouldn't have much positive impact in my opinion. Blow by as you mentioned would be inevitable no matter what you do here.
This is a quite low pressure Cartridge, and while yes, indeed the Cylinder 'Bore' does look to have been enlarged naively, it none the less is not going to occasion stuck Cartridge Cases, if using the .320 RR Length Brass.


Quote:
In fact, running the case to the end of the chamber would likely make them very hard to extract. The cases would expand like a lollie pop when fired. Sort of like the end of a blunderbust? Gross case expansion is the result of a chamber that is NOT bored out correctly.
This is not a .357 Magnum, no such concern would exist here, with this.

It is a very mild, low pressure Black Powder Cartridge, and nothing is going to expand in a way where the fired Brass will be stuck in the Chambers.

Quote:
My suggestion of just using the 32-20 case I stand by since it would function well and not impact the area the chambers were drilled out.
A .32-20 Case for being too short, would leave an unsupported Bullet travel to the Forcing Cone, with enormous blow by, possibe tilting of the Bullet, sudden deformation when meeting the Forcing Cone wrongly, terrible accuracy, and probable 'Leading'.

This would be no good...

The full length Case would provide the support needed...which had originally been provided by the Cylinder Bore ( now enlarged to be same diameter as Cylinder Chamber ).

Quote:

I also believe the gun would pattern shoot at a respectable distance and it would not be difficult to manufacture and "safely" use this type of case arrangement. Nor would it be costly. Plus it would be fun to shoot!

Any other arrangement would likely be not only costly? but would basically get stuck in the chambers and function poorly.

On a bad day you might even break the cam trying to extract the ballooned out shells? Ahh, NOW that would be a bad thing!! Maybe even a "BIGGER MESS"? Egg back at you Phil.


Murph
There would not be any 'Ballooned out Shells'.

Old Cylinder Bore was drilled out/enlarged from the Cylinder Rear, it is not and can not be larger than the Chamber, or than what had been the chamber originally...even if it is all Chamber, now.

Even if the the drilled-out had been 'Bore' were minutely larger in some small areas than the Chamber, the Brass ( unless annealed to be 'dead soft' ) will merely Spring-Back anyway, and would not be stuck.

Even if the Brass were annealed to be dead soft, I doubt it would cause any spent shells being stuck.


Probably there is some obscure Rifle Cartridge which could be modified to be .320 RR, but I have not found out what that Cartridge is yet.

.32 - 44 Brass can be easily made from .32 - 20, or, from .32 Winchester Self Loading.

If I were in need of .32 RR Brass, I would make it by using sections of two .32-20 Cases, and 'telescoping' ( and carefully soldering ) the two of them together to obtain the needed length.

This would be easy to do, and should work perfectly.

The .32-20 'Neck Down' is already almost perfect or maybe is perfect, for having a section of .32-20 Mid Body, slid right over it, where, some careful Soldering, would result in an elegant, and practical result, and with virtually no expense.

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Old 06-21-2020, 06:56 PM
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Default Project results

Phil,
I’m looking forward to your case soldering modification results. I’ve never considered even trying that approach.

Murph
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:32 PM
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Just received the letter for this revolver and it was a special order chambered in 320 RR and shipped in 1888 to an individual. Will post the letter later today
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:26 PM
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Just received the letter for this revolver and it was a special order chambered in 320 RR and shipped in 1888 to an individual. Will post the letter later today
Looks like you landed quite a unicorn there. Congratulations!

Mike
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:42 PM
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Just received the letter for this revolver and it was a special order chambered in 320 RR and shipped in 1888 to an individual. Will post the letter later today
Woo Hoo!

So they do exist and you have one!!!

Yeahhh!
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:44 PM
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Woo Hoo!

So they do exist and you have one!!!

Yeahhh!
Given the overwhelming popularity of the revolving rifle, that may be the one and only NM3 in .320 RR!

Either way, it's indeed a rarity.

Mike
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:44 PM
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Default Caliber Stamp?

Congrats! and Amazing!

I just can’t understand why the company didn’t bother to caliber stamp this revolver? Especially since it was a special order and non standard caliber? I mean no wonder previous owners were chambering the wrong cartridges!


Murph
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:45 PM
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Phil,
I’m looking forward to your case soldering modification results. I’ve never considered even trying that approach.

Murph
I meant that as a way to have .32 RR Brass.

I do not have anything chambering .32 RR

I only have the .32 - 44 Target Revolver...so for mine, I would just use .32-20 Brass, expand it, shorten it a little, and "Done"..!

If I did have one in .32 RR I would make the Brass as I described...since no other existing Brass or cut downs or mods would be as good or as simple and easy and forthright.
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:48 PM
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Congrats! and Amazing!

I just can’t understand why the company didn’t bother to caliber stamp this revolver? Especially since it was a special order and non standard caliber? I mean no wonder previous owners were chambering the wrong cartridges!


Murph
So there's our answer to the Cylinder chambers - old crud ring and or light corrosion 'ring' from having been used with the shorter .32 - 44 Cartridges instead of the full Cylinder Length .32 RR Cartridges.

What a trip, huh!

I always felt strongly that New Model 3 Target Revolvers did / do exist in factory chambering of .32 RR.

So nice finally now to hear and read of one which really exists!
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:40 PM
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IIRC, somre or most of the early 32-44 New Model 3 Target models were drilled clean through. it would therefore reason it might fit a .320 RR cartridge.

Have to check into this deeper. It doesn't shock me that the RR cartridge fits ... or .... it could be a revolving rifle with shortened barrel.

Pictures of top strap please ? Also, a letter should tell the tale.

Best Regards, Sal Raimondi Sr.

PS: I have a New / Old Stock .320 Revolving Rifle Hammer. Not many of those sitting around anywhere. If anyone needs, just holler (email me).
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Old 08-17-2020, 07:02 PM
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Congrats! and Amazing!

I just can’t understand why the company didn’t bother to caliber stamp this revolver? Especially since it was a special order and non standard caliber? I mean no wonder previous owners were chambering the wrong cartridges!


Murph
So there's our answer to the Cylinder chambers - old crud ring and or light corrosion 'ring' from having been used with the shorter .32 - 44 Cartridges instead of the full Cylinder Length .32 RR Cartridges.

What a trip, huh!

I always felt strongly that New Model 3 Target Revolvers did / do exist in factory chambering of .32 RR.

So nice finally now to hear and read of one which really exists!
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:15 PM
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Default Rare chambering

I agree Phil,
Since this was sent to an individual sure looks like a special order to me. The Revolving rifle pre-dates the Target New Model 3 by many years (1879) and since this is one of the earliest ones manufactured by serial number it does make sense that there would be a small following early on. I honestly doubt that you could find more than a handful in this caliber since the Revolving Rifle was discontinued the exact same year the Target New Model 3 was introduced.

It also makes sense that someone who owned a Revolving Rifle might have also wanted a New Model 3 target pistol in the same caliber to manufacture a matched set.

Following suit with rarity? This is a very rare gun in my opinion! Low serial number, end of production for the Revolving rifle? Makes sense that the Revolving Rifle caliber would be desired for a very short period of time.

Murph
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:41 PM
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YESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for lettering it. This is the first (proven) one I have seen. The rumors have existed for years but a proven example was always in the weeds.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:41 PM
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Here is the letter and a picture of the top of the barrel. Tried looking for info on John E. Martin with no luck.

Did this revolver ship after the 38-44 was released?

Did I mention I was pretty happy after receiving this letter.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:44 PM
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I agree Phil,
Since this was sent to an individual sure looks like a special order to me. The Revolving rifle pre-dates the Target New Model 3 by many years (1879) and since this is one of the earliest ones manufactured by serial number it does make sense that there would be a small following early on. I honestly doubt that you could find more than a handful in this caliber since the Revolving Rifle was discontinued the exact same year the Target New Model 3 was introduced.

It also makes sense that someone who owned a Revolving Rifle might have also wanted a New Model 3 target pistol in the same caliber to manufacture a matched set.

Following suit with rarity? This is a very rare gun in my opinion! Low serial number, end of production for the Revolving rifle? Makes sense that the Revolving Rifle caliber would be desired for a very short period of time.

Murph
Hi Murph!

Pretty sure the "New Model 3" came out in 1878, ( though how soon after the New Model 3 Target Revolvers appeared, I do not know ) and that the .320 Revolving Rifle evolved out of the New Model 3 shortly after it's debut.

In my own anticipations, the .32 RR Cartridge would have been a fine chambering for a New Model 3 Target.

More power, faster FPS, and thus flatter trajectory than the .32 - 44 for the 50 Yard 50 Meter events.

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Old 08-18-2020, 08:06 AM
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New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R - UPDATE - Letters as 320 RR-screenshot-politicalgraveyard-com-2020-08-18-07_01_14-jpg

Maybe this guy...but it would seem he would have had to order it when he was pretty young..just hard to be sure. He was a Warden in 1917. But the name and location match sort of. It's all I could find in a quickie search.

The Political Graveyard: Index to Politicians: Martin, J.
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Old 08-18-2020, 12:30 PM
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Here is the letter and a picture of the top of the barrel. Tried looking for info on John E. Martin with no luck.

Did this revolver ship after the 38-44 was released?

Did I mention I was pretty happy after receiving this letter.
I think the .38 - 44 and the .32 - 44 came out at the same time, both having been suggested by Ira Paine and possibly other Target Shooters of the time...but I do not know how soon after the introduction of the New Model 3 Revolvers, that the Target Modes had appeared to then have their various choices for what Cartridge to be chambered in.

And, as the .320 Revoving Rifle had evolved out of the New Model 3 early on, with it's own chambering / Cartridge, it makes sense that some Target Shooters would want a Target Revolver chambering the .320 RR Cartridge.
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Old 08-18-2020, 10:54 PM
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Default Special front sight

Reading into the Factory letter?

It's not just the caliber that is rare on this frame? It's also the fact that the spec's are in fact "TARGET" specs by barrel length, adjustable Target rear sights and what I find especially interesting is the "Special" front sight?

I can't imagine receiving a better letter for a Target revolver. Now, your assignment is to find out who this individual was? Probably just a collector like us. He sure had himself a nice set up if he matched this up with a Revolving Rifle. I'm convinced that he did but it's only a gut feeling.

He most definitely purchased this "Special Order" item at the exact same time frame that the Target New Model 3 was introduced and in a caliber that was exclusive to the Revolving Rifle.(We thought) Also, at the exact same time the Revolving rifle was discontinued. To me it just seems like this person was already familiar with this caliber and the performance of same. He would have to be. It's one thing to own a nice well made revolver? but it's another to purchase one that is a nail driver right off the shelf. Not many revolvers can match that claim.

Murph

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Old 08-18-2020, 11:37 PM
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This is going to be a tough one to research. At first glance I don't have a John E. Martin in any of the New Haven records for the late 1880's. There are a few John Martins with no middle initials, but they both appear to be a blue collar laborers; perhaps not the people that might be buying a high end gun like this.

Of course, anything is possible ... but nothing that I'm seeing activates my historical spidey senses yet.

Mike
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:36 AM
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Reading into the Factory letter?

It's not just the caliber that is rare on this frame? It's also the fact that the spec's are in fact "TARGET" specs by barrel length, adjustable Target rear sights and what I find especially interesting is the "Special" front sight?

I can't imagine receiving a better letter for a Target revolver. Now, your assignment is to find out who this individual was? Probably just a collector like us. He sure had himself a nice set up if he matched this up with a Revolving Rifle. I'm convinced that he did but it's only a gut feeling.

He most definitely purchased this "Special Order" item at the exact same time frame that the Target New Model 3 was introduced and in a caliber that was exclusive to the Revolving Rifle.(We thought) Also, at the exact same time the Revolving rifle was discontinued. To me it just seems like this person was already familiar with this caliber and the performance of same. He would have to be. It's one thing to own a nice well made revolver? but it's another to purchase one that is a nail driver right off the shelf. Not many revolvers can match that claim.

Murph
I'd have done the same if it was me..!

The .320 RR would have been a great Target Round for 50 Meter / 50 Yard events..!
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:38 AM
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This is going to be a tough one to research. At first glance I don't have a John E. Martin in any of the New Haven records for the late 1880's. There are a few John Martins with no middle initials, but they both appear to be a blue collar laborers; perhaps not the people that might be buying a high end gun like this.

Of course, anything is possible ... but nothing that I'm seeing activates my historical spidey senses yet.

Mike
Any idea what the New Model 3 Targets cost back then?

I'd enjoy knowing more about that aspect.

I do not have any idea!
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Old 08-19-2020, 10:58 AM
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Default Early Price listing

Here ya go Phil,
The first photo is from an original Smith & Wesson catalog circa 1887. Notice also that "only" the 32 caliber Target is listed? Suggesting that the 32 was the first Target caliber.

The next photo's are from a Major Distributor in New York circa 1889. That's the closest year I have in my Distributor collection that lists prices for the Target Revolvers. Look closely below the Double action drawings. Listing for all calibers including the 32-44, 38-44, and 44 Target Revolvers at $15.55 each.


Murph
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:38 PM
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Here ya go Phil,
The first photo is from an original Smith & Wesson catalog circa 1887. Notice also that "only" the 32 caliber Target is listed? Suggesting that the 32 was the first Target caliber.

The next photo's are from a Major Distributor in New York circa 1889. That's the closest year I have in my Distributor collection that lists prices for the Target Revolvers. Look closely below the Double action drawings. Listing for all calibers including the 32-44, 38-44, and 44 Target Revolvers at $15.55 each.


Murph
Thanks Murph!

Interesting!

Now that you mention it...I do think I recall reading something about how the .32 - 44 preceded the .38 - 44 by a little ways.

Oddly, the Target Revolver shown in the illustration does not seem to have Target Sights.

Might be the Printing place grabbed the wrong Cut for the Catalog job..!?

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Old 08-20-2020, 12:26 AM
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Here is an advertisement from The Rifle publication/magazine from July of 1877. It does not show target sights. Its the first time its advertised in this magazine.

The full page add is from February of 1888 and is the first time target sights are drawn. It shows the early non adjustable rear sight. The add stays the same until the last publication of June 1888. At that time only the 32-44 and 44 russian are listed as target sighted models.

Just for fun I included the competion, a Merwin, Hulbert & Co target revolver. It was first advertised in this magazine in March of 1887, three months before the Smith and Wesson target revolver.
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Old 08-20-2020, 11:38 AM
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Default Bisley Targets!!!

Wow!!!

Mark, Thanks for posting those photos. I'm not sure if you noticed? but those are Bisley targets. Listed as American targets? but the 10 shot pattern follows Bisley rules. These are the first targets that I have ever seen that are labeled as far as distance (50) yards and who's target they are. One of them is actually Ira Paynes!!

Great piece of history you just recorded and provided. Those guys were good shots and at 50 yards....Obviously also those are 32-44 targets! Great stuff. See close up photo's.

I can't make out the 3rd target. Can you please provide another photo of the 3 targets up close. Also, who's target that is on the bottom?

Thanks!

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Old 08-20-2020, 01:18 PM
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Default Bisley Rules

Ok,
So let’s go further here and apply known and documented early Bisley Target specs to those targets. (See photo 1)

Therefore, the first circle or what was considered a “ Bullseye” is actually a 4 inch diameter circle at 50 yards! This makes perfect sense to me personally. The second ring was 6”.

Applying these rules and target results photo’d to the known Ira and Bennett targets? These guys were able to hit a softball size target basically 7 out of 10 times at 50 yards!

That to me is more realistic. This 1 1/2 inch historical grouping in my opinion is an error or exaggeration. I’m suggesting it was actually scored at the 20 yard pistol target. In fact it was! These targets prove it!

Try to imagine hitting a golf ball at 50 yards 10 times! Or even 5 times consecutively? That’s the historical claim!

These targets prove otherwise! These guys were the best of their Era and they obviously couldn’t shoot that well!!!

**** I’m also looking at those targets with a critical eye? I’m not seeing the known 32-44 target round nose bullet! I’m seeing a flat faced Wadcutter punching out those perfect circles! So who knows what trick bullets and loads these guys were using. Likely mixing in some semi-smokeless powder to get more velocity/ performance out of their Guns.


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Old 08-21-2020, 09:44 PM
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Here is the report for the shooting matches in The Rifle magazine for 2 of the targets on the Smith and Wesson add.

The fist picture shows the same target as the add an lists the date for the target as Nov 25, 1887. It was shot by Mr. F. E. Bennet.

The second picture shows the scores for a match shot by Chevalier Paine on Dec 17, 1887. It lists one of the scores as 96. It also notes that Mr Paine used a 38-44 on Dec 9th to shoot one of the days.

Have not found the match report for Mr. F. E. Bennets score of 96.
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:50 PM
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Here is the report where Mr. Bennett shot two targets scoring 96 on Dec 23, 1887 that was shown in the Smith and Wesson ad.
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:51 PM
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Ok,
So let’s go further here and apply known and documented early Bisley Target specs to those targets. (See photo 1)

Therefore, the first circle or what was considered a “ Bullseye” is actually a 4 inch diameter circle at 50 yards! This makes perfect sense to me personally. The second ring was 6”.

Applying these rules and target results photo’d to the known Ira and Bennett targets? These guys were able to hit a softball size target basically 7 out of 10 times at 50 yards!

That to me is more realistic. This 1 1/2 inch historical grouping in my opinion is an error or exaggeration. I’m suggesting it was actually scored at the 20 yard pistol target. In fact it was! These targets prove it!

Try to imagine hitting a golf ball at 50 yards 10 times! Or even 5 times consecutively? That’s the historical claim!

These targets prove otherwise! These guys were the best of their Era and they obviously couldn’t shoot that well!!!

**** I’m also looking at those targets with a critical eye? I’m not seeing the known 32-44 target round nose bullet! I’m seeing a flat faced Wadcutter punching out those perfect circles! So who knows what trick bullets and loads these guys were using. Likely mixing in some semi-smokeless powder to get more velocity/ performance out of their Guns.


Murph
Hi Murph, all...

The earliest Paper Target "Clean Hole making" Bullets I know of were the Himmelwright design spire point 'Semi-Wadcutters' which I t-h-i-n-k came out around 1901.

I have molds for these for the .38 - 44, .44 Russian, and .455 Webley - .45 Colt, and for the .32 S&W or .32-20.

I have not seen any Molds of this design though, for the .323 ish diameter of the .32 - 44, though I am sure they did exist and would have been favored.

Good Eye there about those Targets!



In the late 1980s, early 1990s, I could reliably hit a Playing Card at 50 Yards with my garden variety Colt Government model made in 1914.

This was the ordinary Commercial .45 Automatic, and I was using me-Load Semi-Wadcutters, shooting one handed in the old style.

I had to use 'Kentucky Windage' which I had memorized for it for that distance, aiming about 8 inches to the right, and about a foot above.

If I had possessed a "New Model 3 Target" Revolver then, ( and if the Indoor Range would have allowed me to fire it with BP ) I am sure I would have done better.

But, other than for some initial trial shots to see where i would hit and to decide my Kentucky windage...the various times I did try it, I hit it.

50 Yard Paper Target, I was alright with keeping a Baseball ish size Group with the same Pistol.

I am sure someone who is a good shot would have no problem keeping a Baseball size or better Group at 50 Yards in the 1880s, 1890s, and no doubt, guys shooting Cap & Ball were doing so casually years before, so long as they kept their powder charge consistent and knew their drop and windage.

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 08-22-2020 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:39 PM
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That's really Great stuff Mark,
That article basically documents all we need to know about how good those gentlemen were with their Target Revolvers.


And Phil, you should have been born back in the day! You could have schooled those guys with a 1911.

I still intend on shooting my 32-44 and 38-44 Target revolvers as soon as possible. Probably won't be til the Fall though after California stops burning and I can shoot on public land. This smoke is nasty and my mountain property is threatened so I'm not a happy camper right now.

At least we know what targets we need to beat and at what distance but I'm going to load my own trick loads like they did and then see what I can do.

Murph
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