Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-23-2020, 09:51 AM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Utah
Posts: 159
Likes: 216
Liked 275 Times in 87 Posts
Default New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R

Picked up this well worn new model 3 target revolver. It has an early 2 digit serial number. It actually chambers the 32 revolving rifle cartridge. Still has the original rear non adjustable target sight that has the same serial number as the frame. Think I will send in for a letter on this one.
Attached Thumbnails
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-screenshot_20200523-073358_gallery-jpg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-20200523_073642-jpg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-20200522_145312-jpg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-20200522_144831-jpg  
__________________
Mark

Last edited by Boulder350; 05-23-2020 at 09:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-23-2020, 10:28 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 13
Liked 717 Times in 424 Posts
Default

That's just neat.
I bet it weighs a ton, my .38-44 Target was heavy and not as comfortably balanced as a .44.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 05-23-2020, 11:23 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 916
Likes: 358
Liked 1,272 Times in 544 Posts
Default .320 Revolving Rifle

Wow,
A couple of members were recently talking about the 32/44 Target possibly being chambered for the .320 Revolving rifle round. Looks like you found at least a 32 cal example? I never thought about a low serial number being a candidate for this chambering? But it does make sense since the Revolving rifle pre-dates the 32/44.

Yeah, Iíd say a letter is a must have on this one. I recommend you mention to Mr Jinks that the chambers are bored straight through unlike the 32/44. Thanks kindly for posting. I hope it letters as a .320 cartridge! That would be super rare!

Actually, it could be another caliber though. Did you mic the chambers? Since it doesnít have target sights? It could be a standard 32 S&W. If it was though, it probably would not chamber the .320 Revolving rifle case? So this is a rare bird for sure!

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 05-23-2020 at 11:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 05-23-2020, 11:46 AM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Utah
Posts: 159
Likes: 216
Liked 275 Times in 87 Posts
Default

It has a rear target sight. The front looks like is changed. The early rear target sight were fixed on this model. It has that with the serial number that matches the frame. Barrel serial number matches the frame too.
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-23-2020, 11:57 AM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,523
Likes: 4
Liked 1,379 Times in 773 Posts
Default

I'm the doubting type and I hope I'm proven wrong but I believe the cylinder has been modified. I think I'm seeing remnants of the .32-44 ring (case stop) in the cylinder bores. Also, the extractor has been replaced incorrectly which makes me suspicious. All said, it's a neat revolver and I hope it is a .320 RR chambering as I have never seen one outside of the rifle.
__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 05-23-2020, 02:48 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 916
Likes: 358
Liked 1,272 Times in 544 Posts
Default Additional Photos?

Can we see a good photo of some of the chambers and also the face of the cylinder with it removed from the barrel assembly?

Thanks

Murph
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-23-2020, 02:54 PM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Utah
Posts: 159
Likes: 216
Liked 275 Times in 87 Posts
Default

I agree the odds are pretty low thats its originally in 320 RR but here is an article that gives me hope. Its a review written in 1887. Have never seen one originally chambered in 320 RR or one converted to 320 RR.

How can you tell the extractor is installed incorrectly? I'm in the process of giving it a good clean. Might be able to tell better then if the chambers have been altered.
Attached Thumbnails
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-20180812_155309-2-jpg  
__________________
Mark

Last edited by Boulder350; 05-23-2020 at 05:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:04 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,523
Likes: 4
Liked 1,379 Times in 773 Posts
Default

Mark, the photo showing the head of the .320 R cartridge also shows a punch-dot on the extractor leg just below the cartridge. That punch-dot should align with the serial number. The extractor is clocked one charge hole off which indicates that the extractor has been out of the cylinder.
__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:08 PM
glowe's Avatar
glowe glowe is offline
US Veteran

New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 9,473
Likes: 1,117
Liked 6,817 Times in 3,147 Posts
Default

Without a factory letter it is just a bunch of guesses. My guess would be a 32 S&W step in the chamber or just powder burn ring from shooting the short cartridge. Which is rarer, 32S&W or 320 RR. If there was ever a S&W that needs a letter it is a two digit NM3 in 32 S&W!! Since Roy states that this model was available in many calibers, including 32 S&W and 320 RR, that would be good enough for me to know that both were made. How many is the question, but maybe this is one of the few.
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Last edited by glowe; 05-23-2020 at 04:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 05-24-2020, 02:38 AM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is online now
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Post us some close ups of the Rear Sight?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-24-2020, 02:52 AM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is online now
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
That's just neat.
I bet it weighs a ton, my .38-44 Target was heavy and not as comfortably balanced as a .44.
My .32 - 44 weighs 1281 Grams, or, 2.824 Pounds.

My .38 -44 weighs 1187 Grams, or, 2.616 Pounds.

My NM3 .44 Russian Target, 1089 Grams, or 2.400 Pounds

The .32 - 44 for sure is a weighty one!

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 05-24-2020 at 02:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 05-24-2020, 05:26 AM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Utah
Posts: 159
Likes: 216
Liked 275 Times in 87 Posts
Default

For now these are the best pictures I have of the rear sight.
Attached Thumbnails
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-screenshot_20200524-021803_gallery-jpg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-screenshot_20200524-021953_gallery-jpg  
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 05-24-2020, 04:31 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is online now
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder350 View Post
For now these are the best pictures I have of the rear sight.
Okeydoke!...interesting it has no usual Screws to adjust the Blade...

Say, can you run a Bronze Bore Brush with some Hot Soapy Water an or other Cleaning media through those Cylinder Chambers, and then post us a fresh picture looking in to them?

Images so far kind of look a little like someone may have re-Chambered this from the Stepped-Chamber-to-bore of the .32 - 44, via reaming the Cylinder Bore and eliminating the 'Step' so they could use the .32 RR Cartridges.

It'd be nice to have some better images and with the Chambers well cleaned to see better.

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 05-24-2020 at 04:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-24-2020, 07:28 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is online now
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

That two digit serial number beginning in "1" is so cute!!

And in keeping with internet tradition of x-ing out the last digit, leaves just the "1"...just put a big smile on my face anyway, so cool.!!!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 05-24-2020, 09:34 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 916
Likes: 358
Liked 1,272 Times in 544 Posts
Default Simple Solution

I recommend a simple solution to determine the original caliber?

Simply, mic the bore.

See photo's below. The .32 Smith & Wesson is .312 bullet diameter. It never changed from its origin in 1878. The bullet design changed from original outside lubrication to inside lubrication in 1887 and several types of bullets after the turn of the century? but the "diameter" remained the same.

The .32-44 Target is listed as .321 diameter inside lubrication. That's a "HUGE" difference. One thing is for certain. If this New Model 3 with early target rear sight was and is an original .32 Smith and Wesson? The bore "will" mic at .312 Groove diameter! NO Question!

If it's an original .32-44 or perhaps the ultra rare .320 Revolving rifle caliber? It "will" mic at .321.

NO Guessing.

At least this way we can eliminate the .32 S&W without the factory letter "OR" confirm it actually is a .32 S&W caliber which would be a great find indeed!

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-e6ab250f-b854-414f-bb82-53969c97609b-jpeg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-b649f98f-4a88-4967-91f4-6ed032cbf821-jpeg  

Last edited by BMur; 05-24-2020 at 09:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 06-19-2020, 12:52 AM
Boulder350's Avatar
Boulder350 Boulder350 is offline
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Utah
Posts: 159
Likes: 216
Liked 275 Times in 87 Posts
Default

Cleaned up the revolver cylinder and took a few more pictures. It looks to me like it is modified from the 32-44 to fire the 320 RR cartridge a long time ago. The corrosion looks like it was fired a lot with the 32-44 cartridge after the modification too. Have not seen one modified like this before.

Sent away for a letter in May to see where it went and what the original configuration was. Hope to get the letter soon.
Attached Thumbnails
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-32-cylinder-30-jpg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-32-cylinder-11-jpg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-32-cylinder-10-jpg   New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R-32-cylinder-2-jpg  
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 06-19-2020, 01:01 AM
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,040
Likes: 2,636
Liked 13,871 Times in 2,447 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
That's just neat.
I bet it weighs a ton, my .38-44 Target was heavy and not as comfortably balanced as a .44.
That New Model #3 Target Model converted to .22 I post here all the time feels bizarrely light compared to what I expected. But I havenít owned a .44 Russian for a long time to remember how it would compare.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-19-2020, 10:19 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 916
Likes: 358
Liked 1,272 Times in 544 Posts
Default Bored straight through

Mark,
It seems to me that you could use the 32-20 rifle case and both size & trim the case to the end of the cylinder throat. Then load the .323 bullet to any depth desired. Should be very accurate using that loading technique. In fact likely more accurate since you could get more black powder into the longer case.

Murph
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 06-20-2020, 12:40 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is online now
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Mark,
It seems to me that you could use the 32-20 rifle case and both size & trim the case to the end of the cylinder throat. Then load the .323 bullet to any depth desired. Should be very accurate using that loading technique. In fact likely more accurate since you could get more black powder into the longer case.

Murph
Hi Murph!

No, that would be a mess..!

Since his Cylinder Chambers are now "Bored Straight Through", unless he wants a big mess, he needs for the Cartridge Case to be like the .320 RR, and to be the full length of the Cylinder.

Otherwise, if using a shorter Cartridge Case, he will have a really nasty unsupported Bullet "jump" and massive Blow-By, leading, and terrible accuracy.

.32-20 Case is too short to begin with for this application, of what is in effect, same as the .320 RR Cylinder chambering.

.32-20 Brass can be shortened, expanded, and made to serve for the .32 - 44 Cartridge, but not for the longer .320 RR.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 06-20-2020, 11:19 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 916
Likes: 358
Liked 1,272 Times in 544 Posts
Default Case length?

Hi Phil,
I'm wiping the egg of my shirt right now....


Actually, I would agree with you "if" the cylinder had not been drilled out? Because the cylinder chambers were drilled out? and I strongly suspect they were done by a non professional so that basically means that they are not "True" round. So basically applying a case length to the end of the chamber wouldn't have much positive impact in my opinion. Blow by as you mentioned would be inevitable no matter what you do here.

In fact, running the case to the end of the chamber would likely make them very hard to extract. The cases would expand like a lollie pop when fired. Sort of like the end of a blunderbust? Gross case expansion is the result of a chamber that is NOT bored out correctly.

My suggestion of just using the 32-20 case I stand by since it would function well and not impact the area the chambers were drilled out.

I also believe the gun would pattern shoot at a respectable distance and it would not be difficult to manufacture and "safely" use this type of case arrangement. Nor would it be costly. Plus it would be fun to shoot!

Any other arrangement would likely be not only costly? but would basically get stuck in the chambers and function poorly.

On a bad day you might even break the cam trying to extract the ballooned out shells? Ahh, NOW that would be a bad thing!! Maybe even a "BIGGER MESS"? Egg back at you Phil.


Murph
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 06-21-2020, 01:07 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is online now
SWCA Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Hi Phil,
I'm wiping the egg of my shirt right now....


Actually, I would agree with you "if" the cylinder had not been drilled out? Because the cylinder chambers were drilled out? and I strongly suspect they were done by a non professional so that basically means that they are not "True" round. So basically applying a case length to the end of the chamber wouldn't have much positive impact in my opinion. Blow by as you mentioned would be inevitable no matter what you do here.
This is a quite low pressure Cartridge, and while yes, indeed the Cylinder 'Bore' does look to have been enlarged naively, it none the less is not going to occasion stuck Cartridge Cases, if using the .320 RR Length Brass.


Quote:
In fact, running the case to the end of the chamber would likely make them very hard to extract. The cases would expand like a lollie pop when fired. Sort of like the end of a blunderbust? Gross case expansion is the result of a chamber that is NOT bored out correctly.
This is not a .357 Magnum, no such concern would exist here, with this.

It is a very mild, low pressure Black Powder Cartridge, and nothing is going to expand in a way where the fired Brass will be stuck in the Chambers.

Quote:
My suggestion of just using the 32-20 case I stand by since it would function well and not impact the area the chambers were drilled out.
A .32-20 Case for being too short, would leave an unsupported Bullet travel to the Forcing Cone, with enormous blow by, possibe tilting of the Bullet, sudden deformation when meeting the Forcing Cone wrongly, terrible accuracy, and probable 'Leading'.

This would be no good...

The full length Case would provide the support needed...which had originally been provided by the Cylinder Bore ( now enlarged to be same diameter as Cylinder Chamber ).

Quote:

I also believe the gun would pattern shoot at a respectable distance and it would not be difficult to manufacture and "safely" use this type of case arrangement. Nor would it be costly. Plus it would be fun to shoot!

Any other arrangement would likely be not only costly? but would basically get stuck in the chambers and function poorly.

On a bad day you might even break the cam trying to extract the ballooned out shells? Ahh, NOW that would be a bad thing!! Maybe even a "BIGGER MESS"? Egg back at you Phil.


Murph
There would not be any 'Ballooned out Shells'.

Old Cylinder Bore was drilled out/enlarged from the Cylinder Rear, it is not and can not be larger than the Chamber, or than what had been the chamber originally...even if it is all Chamber, now.

Even if the the drilled-out had been 'Bore' were minutely larger in some small areas than the Chamber, the Brass ( unless annealed to be 'dead soft' ) will merely Spring-Back anyway, and would not be stuck.

Even if the Brass were annealed to be dead soft, I doubt it would cause any spent shells being stuck.


Probably there is some obscure Rifle Cartridge which could be modified to be .320 RR, but I have not found out what that Cartridge is yet.

.32 - 44 Brass can be easily made from .32 - 20, or, from .32 Winchester Self Loading.

If I were in need of .32 RR Brass, I would make it by using sections of two .32-20 Cases, and 'telescoping' ( and carefully soldering ) the two of them together to obtain the needed length.

This would be easy to do, and should work perfectly.

The .32-20 'Neck Down' is already almost perfect or maybe is perfect, for having a section of .32-20 Mid Body, slid right over it, where, some careful Soldering, would result in an elegant, and practical result, and with virtually no expense.

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 06-21-2020 at 01:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #22  
Old 06-21-2020, 06:56 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R New Model 3 Target in 32 S&W R  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 916
Likes: 358
Liked 1,272 Times in 544 Posts
Default Project results

Phil,
Iím looking forward to your case soldering modification results. Iíve never considered even trying that approach.

Murph
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K square S&W target grips & Model 41 Target Pistol **PLEASE CLOSE ** Narragansett WANTED to Buy 2 04-30-2019 12:18 PM
4" 1950 Model Target 44 (Pre 24) With Smooth Goncalo Alves Target Grips 230grfmj S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 82 06-29-2018 05:31 PM
FOUND WTB target hammer and target trigger for s&w model 19-5 bnogare WANTED to Buy 1 06-20-2013 04:56 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:34 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)