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  #51  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:01 AM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
...but itís a little hard to keep both cartridges straight.

Your Friend the Frog...
Frogg,

I will let you in on a secret, the 38 is the bigger one. Donít tell anyone!

Kevin
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  #52  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:34 AM
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Default 2 Target loads

Morning Charlie,
My fault. I just wanted to post results for both target loads at the range. Sort of a comparison between the two. I honestly expect the 32-44 Target to be the superior shooter from a grouping standpoint? But one never knows until itís proven. Thatís the concept. Sort of a caliber challenge?

Murph
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  #53  
Old 06-17-2020, 12:01 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawHat View Post
Frogg,

I will let you in on a secret, the 38 is the bigger one. Donít tell anyone!

Kevin
True that, but when looking at loading data for two cartridges with such similar numerical designations (differing by one digit in the middle) the possibility of transposing information becomes concerning.

Call me a nervous Nellie if you will, but Iím active on a lot of shooting related boards and you would be amazed how misinformation can slip in.

Froggie
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  #54  
Old 06-17-2020, 05:15 PM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default Loading data

I apologize Charlie,

When reloading though you have to be precise no matter what caliber you are loading or reloading.

When comparing loading data for the 32-44 as proven in this thread? It no way even resembles the 38-44 both in bullet weight, type, powder charge, or even case dimensions. Not even close to be honest. An error in loading would be a gross error that would not in any way involve what has been posted on this thread.

When loading or reloading itís always best practice to check and double check and then check again all your data and final results. I enjoy it myself but would never recommend it for anyone who is not confident of their procedures. Itís not for everyone.

There are a lot of really good reloading books out there. We should all have several in our book collection. If not? This thread in NO WAY qualifies you for reloading! Read some good books first to thoroughly understand the process!

This thread is honestly designed for those who have Already performed a lot of loading and reloading successfully and basically have a lot of experience. Also to satisfy Curiosity regarding a Historical claim of extreme accuracy that at this point I am very skeptical about. 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards? With open sights from a pistol? Sounds like a yarn to me! Thatís like hitting a Silver dollar over and over again at 50 yards with a pistol ď Off HandĒ? Come on now?


Anyway, When reloading for calibers that are no longer available on the market today you must follow ď PreciselyĒ the loading data from original manuals and never alter that data. Even when others suggest doing so!

Manufacturing non original cases and basing our final product from loading data that is 130 years old Thatís way beyond the novice.

Only a lot of loading experience and understanding the dynamics provides the confidence in knowing that what you are doing is 100% safe!

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 06-17-2020 at 05:22 PM.
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  #55  
Old 06-17-2020, 06:56 PM
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Default Olympic comparison

I just want to convey exactly why I am very skeptical of the 1 1/2Ē grouping historical claim?

If you look at official Olympic targets that are used today along with very Trick small caliber low recoil custom High Tech pistols? You can see from the 10 meter target? Photo 1
And the 50 meter target? Photo 2

If you can shoot 1 1/2 groups? You would be a Gold Metal winner at ANY event! WORLD CHAMPION!!!!

Murph
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32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-df5b5afd-aac4-4fd0-a2d2-51e40c24dc9f-jpeg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-25d9fc76-a001-4ba2-8350-c34de91106fb-jpeg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-2935a45a-af07-4954-9c3a-92634e5db9be-jpeg  
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  #56  
Old 06-17-2020, 07:17 PM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
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Default

Murph,

Are the scores or string measurements from the old champions available? That could tell you if the cartridge and pistol are up to the task.

Kevin
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  #57  
Old 06-17-2020, 07:23 PM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
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Default

I would also like to apologize to Green Frog. When I saw the mention of the 38/44 my first thought took me to the 1930 Heavy Duty chambered for the, wait for it, 38/44 HD! An entirely different cartridge from either previously mentioned in this thread.

Kevin
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  #58  
Old 06-17-2020, 09:52 PM
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Default the 38-44 bullet

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
I apologize Charlie,

When reloading though you have to be precise no matter what caliber you are loading or reloading.

When comparing loading data for the 32-44 as proven in this thread? It no way even resembles the 38-44 both in bullet weight, type, powder charge, or even case dimensions. Not even close to be honest. An error in loading would be a gross error that would not in any way involve what has been posted on this thread.

When loading or reloading itís always best practice to check and double check and then check again all your data and final results. I enjoy it myself but would never recommend it for anyone who is not confident of their procedures. Itís not for everyone.

There are a lot of really good reloading books out there. We should all have several in our book collection. If not? This thread in NO WAY qualifies you for reloading! Read some good books first to thoroughly understand the process!

This thread is honestly designed for those who have Already performed a lot of loading and reloading successfully and basically have a lot of experience. Also to satisfy Curiosity regarding a Historical claim of extreme accuracy that at this point I am very skeptical about. 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards? With open sights from a pistol? Sounds like a yarn to me! Thatís like hitting a Silver dollar over and over again at 50 yards with a pistol ď Off HandĒ? Come on now?


Anyway, When reloading for calibers that are no longer available on the market today you must follow ď PreciselyĒ the loading data from original manuals and never alter that data. Even when others suggest doing so!

Manufacturing non original cases and basing our final product from loading data that is 130 years old Thatís way beyond the novice.

Only a lot of loading experience and understanding the dynamics provides the confidence in knowing that what you are doing is 100% safe!

Murph
The S&W 38-44 Target cartridge used the same bullet mold as the 38 S&W thus the bullet weight and diameter would be the same as the 38 S&W.

B. Mower
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  #59  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:52 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is online now
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
True that, but when looking at loading data for two cartridges with such similar numerical designations (differing by one digit in the middle) the possibility of transposing information becomes concerning.

Call me a nervous Nellie if you will, but Iím active on a lot of shooting related boards and you would be amazed how misinformation can slip in.

Froggie
Hi Froggie,

These are Black Powder Cartridges.

There is no need or use or reliance on 'Loading Data'.

One puts in "as much" Powder as will fit with good compression, for the Bullet of choice to be seated to the depth one wants, and that's it.

if one wants to record or write down how many Grains weight that is, great!

However, Cartidge Case type, it's actual internal volume, will effect how many Grains ( of what granulation ) of Black Powder it can hold, with good compression, and for the Bullet or Ball being used to seat where one wishes.

This is always arrived at empirically, ideally anyway...no matter what any published figures may be.

With either Cartridge, one can use a very small Powder Charge and a Ball seated deeply, or one can use medium charge, Ball or Bullet seated how-ever much less deeply, or, a full charge and a Ball seated as far out as possible, or a full charge with a Bullet, etc.

There is no possibility of any kind of problem transposing anything from the one Cartridge to the other.

What could one transpose?

Nothing...

One could never fit the full charge of Black Powder the .38 - 44 can hold, to the .32 - 44 Cartridge.

It is all self regulating in effect, and fail safe.

Other than to have 'good compression' of Powder, about the only other thing to mind, is to have no Air Gap between Powder and Projectile.

That's it!

Whole other world from the critical 'Loading Densities' of Bullseye or Unique or other fast burning 'Smokeless'.

Back Powder Cartridges have only one Loading density - "Good Compression and no Air Space".

Old Balloon Folded or ( original 'Solid' ) Head Cases hold more than 'modern' Solid Head Cases.

People get in to trouble with fast burning Smokeless Propellants when not observing Loading Density in context of Case Volume and Bullet Weight and Seating depth.

Old published figures for Bullseye Powder ( in Balloon Head Cases ), if one follows the old tables and is using modern Solid Head Cases, one will be way over pressure from what the Balloon Head Case would have been...since the volume of modern Cases is a lot smaller, and thence, one will have goofed up the Loading Density unto Over-Pressure charging, in not being hip to this.



Black Powder, none of that exists.

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 06-17-2020 at 11:03 PM.
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  #60  
Old 06-18-2020, 12:14 AM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default Origin of claim?

Kevin,
Iím only familiar with the historical claim that I personally have read several times from different authors but I have no idea where this information originated. I suspect the source is from a shooting match.
However, that ERA was plagued with sensationalism and yarns that often originated from some Major Distributor using Market ploys to sell stock.

On the other hand? this seems to have a more historical reference to the shooting matches at Bisley. Finding those early references? Iím not sure where to even look.

There are drawings of Shot targets found next to the New Model 3 advertisements that I have seen but none of them show 1 1/2Ē groups. I posted one on another thread about a year ago.

Iím not saying it canít be done with a lot of practice and dialing in the load, bullet seating depth and lead to tin mix but to me personally? I was a member of a target shooting club a long time ago and tight groups with modern powders and modern primers with trick custom grips etc? At 25 yards? Absolutely! But 50 yards off hand? is a stretch in my mind. 3Ē-6Ē groups are more doable and thatís with a lot of weekly practice!

Hitting a Silver Dollar consistently at 50 yards even with one of the New Olympic target guns would be difficult at best! You would be Mr. Gold Medal thatís for sure!

Iím trying to have an open mind here and I will do my best at the range so weíll see.

Just to be clear though? I plan on starting at the 25 yard bench for both target guns and bench resting them using my favorite shooting glove. This test is to see if ď The GunsĒ are up to the task. ďNot meĒ off hand.
If they pattern tight at 25? I will continue to the 50 yard range and ď Bench RestĒ them again. If they shoot tight patterns at 50 yards bench rested? That means to me that it can be done!


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 06-18-2020 at 12:20 AM.
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  #61  
Old 06-18-2020, 07:04 AM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
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Default

Murph,

Clear up my confusion please. Which 38/44 are you loading and shooting? A S&W Number 3 or a S&W Heavy Duty (or Outdoorsman)? And which cartridge, 38/44 Target or 38/44 HD? And is there any dimensional difference?

I was okay until I reread the thread!

Kevin
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  #62  
Old 06-18-2020, 08:06 AM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawHat View Post
Murph,

Clear up my confusion please. Which 38/44 are you loading and shooting? A S&W Number 3 or a S&W Heavy Duty (or Outdoorsman)? And which cartridge, 38/44 Target or 38/44 HD? And is there any dimensional difference?

I was okay until I reread the thread!

Kevin
What he said! I guess Iím one of those casual readers of interesting sounding threads (that I accused others of being ) but when too many topics and especially numbers get mixed into the thread, I get lost. Not really a criticism to any of you, and especially not to my colleague Murph, nor my e-friend Kevin, just an observation. Press on into the fray, gentlemen!

Froggie
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  #63  
Old 06-18-2020, 10:27 AM
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Default Whoís on first?

Um,
Well, isnít this the ďAntique ForumĒ? Antiques only? That would be New Model 3 Targets. Now Iím confused. Whoís on first? LOL.

Murph
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  #64  
Old 06-18-2020, 11:12 AM
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Default

@ BMur.

I don't know if you considered this. But since you are trying to access the accuracy. Use a drop tube(a foot long should be enough) to load the powder into the cases. Don't ask me why but it seems to improve the accuracy with blackpowder loaded cartridges.
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  #65  
Old 06-23-2020, 11:35 AM
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Default Range test attempt

Well,
I went to the range this morning. "Early".... I was beside myself...."A LINE"???

Information from the website said they are open. They were initially closed due to virus issues so I had no idea what to expect.

Turns out that of the 12 stations that are normally open for the 25 yard range? There is 1 open now....ONLY 1 ! You have a 2 hour timed shooting limit. People waiting in line outside the fence are staring at you while you are shooting waiting their turn?

3 stations at the 50 and 2 stations at the 100 yard. All taken.

I've never in my life waited in line at the shooting range and at my age I'm not going to start now.

BLM land is not an option right now since they have already shut down public land due to Fire Hazard (Fire Season in California Is taken very seriously)

So, I'm back home now kinda pissed off but I will try to call a few other ranges and see how bad they are or if they are even open with this virus going on.

Murph
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  #66  
Old 06-23-2020, 12:13 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
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Default

I feel your pain, Murph! To have 12 stations but only open 1 appears to me more punishment than social distancing! Of course we have to consider your state’s political climate and expect some blowback from those of a certain persuasion who would like to eliminate all shooting. Here in Kalifornia East, the former Commonwealth of Virginia, an indoor range owner had to go to court to be able to reopen at all, and of course he has extremely good ventilation and air filtration second only to a scientific lab. I just keep hoping “this too shall pass!”

Froggie
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  #67  
Old 06-23-2020, 09:44 PM
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Default Ranget test?

Yeah Charlie,
It's tough out there right now. However, it looks like we might see even more relaxing of the restrictions soon. I think they are finding out now that it's not as lethal as they are making it seem. "Percentage" wise anyway.

I haven't given up yet on the range test. I'm talking to several shooting buddies. Already have several leads on ranges to shoot at but I'm trying to find one close first before I go venture out into the valley.

Murph
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