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  #51  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
...but it’s a little hard to keep both cartridges straight.

Your Friend the Frog...
Frogg,

I will let you in on a secret, the 38 is the bigger one. Don’t tell anyone!

Kevin
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  #52  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:34 AM
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Default 2 Target loads

Morning Charlie,
My fault. I just wanted to post results for both target loads at the range. Sort of a comparison between the two. I honestly expect the 32-44 Target to be the superior shooter from a grouping standpoint? But one never knows until it’s proven. That’s the concept. Sort of a caliber challenge?

Murph
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  #53  
Old 06-17-2020, 12:01 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawHat View Post
Frogg,

I will let you in on a secret, the 38 is the bigger one. Don’t tell anyone!

Kevin
True that, but when looking at loading data for two cartridges with such similar numerical designations (differing by one digit in the middle) the possibility of transposing information becomes concerning.

Call me a nervous Nellie if you will, but I’m active on a lot of shooting related boards and you would be amazed how misinformation can slip in.

Froggie
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  #54  
Old 06-17-2020, 05:15 PM
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Default Loading data

I apologize Charlie,

When reloading though you have to be precise no matter what caliber you are loading or reloading.

When comparing loading data for the 32-44 as proven in this thread? It no way even resembles the 38-44 both in bullet weight, type, powder charge, or even case dimensions. Not even close to be honest. An error in loading would be a gross error that would not in any way involve what has been posted on this thread.

When loading or reloading it’s always best practice to check and double check and then check again all your data and final results. I enjoy it myself but would never recommend it for anyone who is not confident of their procedures. It’s not for everyone.

There are a lot of really good reloading books out there. We should all have several in our book collection. If not? This thread in NO WAY qualifies you for reloading! Read some good books first to thoroughly understand the process!

This thread is honestly designed for those who have Already performed a lot of loading and reloading successfully and basically have a lot of experience. Also to satisfy Curiosity regarding a Historical claim of extreme accuracy that at this point I am very skeptical about. 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards? With open sights from a pistol? Sounds like a yarn to me! That’s like hitting a Silver dollar over and over again at 50 yards with a pistol “ Off Hand”? Come on now?


Anyway, When reloading for calibers that are no longer available on the market today you must follow “ Precisely” the loading data from original manuals and never alter that data. Even when others suggest doing so!

Manufacturing non original cases and basing our final product from loading data that is 130 years old That’s way beyond the novice.

Only a lot of loading experience and understanding the dynamics provides the confidence in knowing that what you are doing is 100% safe!

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 06-17-2020 at 05:22 PM.
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  #55  
Old 06-17-2020, 06:56 PM
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Default Olympic comparison

I just want to convey exactly why I am very skeptical of the 1 1/2” grouping historical claim?

If you look at official Olympic targets that are used today along with very Trick small caliber low recoil custom High Tech pistols? You can see from the 10 meter target? Photo 1
And the 50 meter target? Photo 2

If you can shoot 1 1/2 groups? You would be a Gold Metal winner at ANY event! WORLD CHAMPION!!!!

Murph
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  #56  
Old 06-17-2020, 07:17 PM
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Murph,

Are the scores or string measurements from the old champions available? That could tell you if the cartridge and pistol are up to the task.

Kevin
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  #57  
Old 06-17-2020, 07:23 PM
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I would also like to apologize to Green Frog. When I saw the mention of the 38/44 my first thought took me to the 1930 Heavy Duty chambered for the, wait for it, 38/44 HD! An entirely different cartridge from either previously mentioned in this thread.

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  #58  
Old 06-17-2020, 09:52 PM
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Default the 38-44 bullet

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
I apologize Charlie,

When reloading though you have to be precise no matter what caliber you are loading or reloading.

When comparing loading data for the 32-44 as proven in this thread? It no way even resembles the 38-44 both in bullet weight, type, powder charge, or even case dimensions. Not even close to be honest. An error in loading would be a gross error that would not in any way involve what has been posted on this thread.

When loading or reloading it’s always best practice to check and double check and then check again all your data and final results. I enjoy it myself but would never recommend it for anyone who is not confident of their procedures. It’s not for everyone.

There are a lot of really good reloading books out there. We should all have several in our book collection. If not? This thread in NO WAY qualifies you for reloading! Read some good books first to thoroughly understand the process!

This thread is honestly designed for those who have Already performed a lot of loading and reloading successfully and basically have a lot of experience. Also to satisfy Curiosity regarding a Historical claim of extreme accuracy that at this point I am very skeptical about. 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards? With open sights from a pistol? Sounds like a yarn to me! That’s like hitting a Silver dollar over and over again at 50 yards with a pistol “ Off Hand”? Come on now?


Anyway, When reloading for calibers that are no longer available on the market today you must follow “ Precisely” the loading data from original manuals and never alter that data. Even when others suggest doing so!

Manufacturing non original cases and basing our final product from loading data that is 130 years old That’s way beyond the novice.

Only a lot of loading experience and understanding the dynamics provides the confidence in knowing that what you are doing is 100% safe!

Murph
The S&W 38-44 Target cartridge used the same bullet mold as the 38 S&W thus the bullet weight and diameter would be the same as the 38 S&W.

B. Mower
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  #59  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:52 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
True that, but when looking at loading data for two cartridges with such similar numerical designations (differing by one digit in the middle) the possibility of transposing information becomes concerning.

Call me a nervous Nellie if you will, but I’m active on a lot of shooting related boards and you would be amazed how misinformation can slip in.

Froggie
Hi Froggie,

These are Black Powder Cartridges.

There is no need or use or reliance on 'Loading Data'.

One puts in "as much" Powder as will fit with good compression, for the Bullet of choice to be seated to the depth one wants, and that's it.

if one wants to record or write down how many Grains weight that is, great!

However, Cartidge Case type, it's actual internal volume, will effect how many Grains ( of what granulation ) of Black Powder it can hold, with good compression, and for the Bullet or Ball being used to seat where one wishes.

This is always arrived at empirically, ideally anyway...no matter what any published figures may be.

With either Cartridge, one can use a very small Powder Charge and a Ball seated deeply, or one can use medium charge, Ball or Bullet seated how-ever much less deeply, or, a full charge and a Ball seated as far out as possible, or a full charge with a Bullet, etc.

There is no possibility of any kind of problem transposing anything from the one Cartridge to the other.

What could one transpose?

Nothing...

One could never fit the full charge of Black Powder the .38 - 44 can hold, to the .32 - 44 Cartridge.

It is all self regulating in effect, and fail safe.

Other than to have 'good compression' of Powder, about the only other thing to mind, is to have no Air Gap between Powder and Projectile.

That's it!

Whole other world from the critical 'Loading Densities' of Bullseye or Unique or other fast burning 'Smokeless'.

Back Powder Cartridges have only one Loading density - "Good Compression and no Air Space".

Old Balloon Folded or ( original 'Solid' ) Head Cases hold more than 'modern' Solid Head Cases.

People get in to trouble with fast burning Smokeless Propellants when not observing Loading Density in context of Case Volume and Bullet Weight and Seating depth.

Old published figures for Bullseye Powder ( in Balloon Head Cases ), if one follows the old tables and is using modern Solid Head Cases, one will be way over pressure from what the Balloon Head Case would have been...since the volume of modern Cases is a lot smaller, and thence, one will have goofed up the Loading Density unto Over-Pressure charging, in not being hip to this.



Black Powder, none of that exists.

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  #60  
Old 06-18-2020, 12:14 AM
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Default Origin of claim?

Kevin,
I’m only familiar with the historical claim that I personally have read several times from different authors but I have no idea where this information originated. I suspect the source is from a shooting match.
However, that ERA was plagued with sensationalism and yarns that often originated from some Major Distributor using Market ploys to sell stock.

On the other hand? this seems to have a more historical reference to the shooting matches at Bisley. Finding those early references? I’m not sure where to even look.

There are drawings of Shot targets found next to the New Model 3 advertisements that I have seen but none of them show 1 1/2” groups. I posted one on another thread about a year ago.

I’m not saying it can’t be done with a lot of practice and dialing in the load, bullet seating depth and lead to tin mix but to me personally? I was a member of a target shooting club a long time ago and tight groups with modern powders and modern primers with trick custom grips etc? At 25 yards? Absolutely! But 50 yards off hand? is a stretch in my mind. 3”-6” groups are more doable and that’s with a lot of weekly practice!

Hitting a Silver Dollar consistently at 50 yards even with one of the New Olympic target guns would be difficult at best! You would be Mr. Gold Medal that’s for sure!

I’m trying to have an open mind here and I will do my best at the range so we’ll see.

Just to be clear though? I plan on starting at the 25 yard bench for both target guns and bench resting them using my favorite shooting glove. This test is to see if “ The Guns” are up to the task. “Not me” off hand.
If they pattern tight at 25? I will continue to the 50 yard range and “ Bench Rest” them again. If they shoot tight patterns at 50 yards bench rested? That means to me that it can be done!


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 06-18-2020 at 12:20 AM.
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  #61  
Old 06-18-2020, 07:04 AM
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Murph,

Clear up my confusion please. Which 38/44 are you loading and shooting? A S&W Number 3 or a S&W Heavy Duty (or Outdoorsman)? And which cartridge, 38/44 Target or 38/44 HD? And is there any dimensional difference?

I was okay until I reread the thread!

Kevin
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  #62  
Old 06-18-2020, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawHat View Post
Murph,

Clear up my confusion please. Which 38/44 are you loading and shooting? A S&W Number 3 or a S&W Heavy Duty (or Outdoorsman)? And which cartridge, 38/44 Target or 38/44 HD? And is there any dimensional difference?

I was okay until I reread the thread!

Kevin
What he said! I guess I’m one of those casual readers of interesting sounding threads (that I accused others of being ) but when too many topics and especially numbers get mixed into the thread, I get lost. Not really a criticism to any of you, and especially not to my colleague Murph, nor my e-friend Kevin, just an observation. Press on into the fray, gentlemen!

Froggie
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  #63  
Old 06-18-2020, 10:27 AM
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Default Who’s on first?

Um,
Well, isn’t this the “Antique Forum”? Antiques only? That would be New Model 3 Targets. Now I’m confused. Who’s on first? LOL.

Murph
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  #64  
Old 06-18-2020, 11:12 AM
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Default

@ BMur.

I don't know if you considered this. But since you are trying to access the accuracy. Use a drop tube(a foot long should be enough) to load the powder into the cases. Don't ask me why but it seems to improve the accuracy with blackpowder loaded cartridges.
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  #65  
Old 06-23-2020, 11:35 AM
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Default Range test attempt

Well,
I went to the range this morning. "Early".... I was beside myself...."A LINE"???

Information from the website said they are open. They were initially closed due to virus issues so I had no idea what to expect.

Turns out that of the 12 stations that are normally open for the 25 yard range? There is 1 open now....ONLY 1 ! You have a 2 hour timed shooting limit. People waiting in line outside the fence are staring at you while you are shooting waiting their turn?

3 stations at the 50 and 2 stations at the 100 yard. All taken.

I've never in my life waited in line at the shooting range and at my age I'm not going to start now.

BLM land is not an option right now since they have already shut down public land due to Fire Hazard (Fire Season in California Is taken very seriously)

So, I'm back home now kinda pissed off but I will try to call a few other ranges and see how bad they are or if they are even open with this virus going on.

Murph
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  #66  
Old 06-23-2020, 12:13 PM
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I feel your pain, Murph! To have 12 stations but only open 1 appears to me more punishment than social distancing! Of course we have to consider your state’s political climate and expect some blowback from those of a certain persuasion who would like to eliminate all shooting. Here in Kalifornia East, the former Commonwealth of Virginia, an indoor range owner had to go to court to be able to reopen at all, and of course he has extremely good ventilation and air filtration second only to a scientific lab. I just keep hoping “this too shall pass!”

Froggie
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  #67  
Old 06-23-2020, 09:44 PM
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Default Ranget test?

Yeah Charlie,
It's tough out there right now. However, it looks like we might see even more relaxing of the restrictions soon. I think they are finding out now that it's not as lethal as they are making it seem. "Percentage" wise anyway.

I haven't given up yet on the range test. I'm talking to several shooting buddies. Already have several leads on ranges to shoot at but I'm trying to find one close first before I go venture out into the valley.

Murph
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:24 PM
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I finally got a few original Cartridges, all loaded, to go with my own .32 - 44 -

Just waned to share a picture of them...each has a tiny little label on it, so, it looks like these had been in someone's collection...they are in quite nice condition too.

One, the Bullet is in the very end of the Cartridge but still inside it...the rest, Bullet or Ball is down in quite a ways, so, "Gallery Rounds" apparently...

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Old 07-21-2020, 08:17 PM
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Loved this thread, but not I'll sleep until I know how the shooting went !!!!!!
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Old 07-21-2020, 08:28 PM
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Loved this thread, but not I'll sleep until I know how the shooting went !!!!!!
Same here, and I am in the Race too ya know!

( Just so little time for anything but "work" any more with me, all day every day 7 days-a-week "Work", so, eeeesh! Loading Bench has Cob Webs on it..! All else but bare essentials gets neglected or shined-on...)

Who-ever gets to the Range first with their .32 - 44 and posts a nice 'Range Report' ought to get some sort of Honors, for sure!

It ain't easy sometimes!
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Old 07-22-2020, 12:35 PM
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Default No place to shoot

I’ve been loaded up and ready for a while now. Even tried to shoot at my favorite range. I already posted that nightmare. The few ranges that are open( Due to this Virus not because of California!!!!). They limit the time you can shoot after waiting in line!!! Sorry, I can’t do that!! I like to make a full day of shooting. Normally shooting both rifle and pistol. Having the line Stare at you doesn’t appeal to me!
Plus we are in fire season here in California so you can’t legally shoot on BLM land until the season is declared over! Which now goes into December! So I guess we are just going to have to wait til things get better. Or Phil gets his stuff loaded up?

Murph
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Old 07-22-2020, 04:11 PM
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Have 2 Ideal .32-44 Target hand loaders stashed and a Revolving Rifle .32 (mold only) which IIRC is a .323". Also have.44 American and .44 Russian Ideal hand loading tools and a few Himmelwright molds.

Not sure (can't tell for sure from picture) but seems like bullet seating threaded rod has been replaced and decapping pin missing.
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Old 07-22-2020, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
I’ve been loaded up and ready for a while now. Even tried to shoot at my favorite range. I already posted that nightmare. The few ranges that are open( Due to this Virus not because of California!!!!). They limit the time you can shoot after waiting in line!!! Sorry, I can’t do that!! I like to make a full day of shooting. Normally shooting both rifle and pistol. Having the line Stare at you doesn’t appeal to me!
Plus we are in fire season here in California so you can’t legally shoot on BLM land until the season is declared over! Which now goes into December! So I guess we are just going to have to wait til things get better. Or Phil gets his stuff loaded up?

Murph

Oye!

Friend of mine has an old 20 Acre Ranch near by, right outside of Town a little ways, and it has an old, decommissioned Railroad Way which in the terrain, makes a nice Embankment as Back-Stop in the low areas...

So, I finally have a place to Shoot anyway..! And it is nice...basically Wilderness other than for the 1880s RR Bed...dense with Trees and Scrub...

Otherwise, no Clubs or outdoor Ranges anywhere near here.

There is a nice indoor Range a half hours Drive from here, but, I am sure they do not want Black Powder going on, so...
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Old 07-22-2020, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by model3sw View Post
Have 2 Ideal .32-44 Target hand loaders stashed and a Revolving Rifle .32 (mold only) which IIRC is a .323". Also have.44 American and .44 Russian Ideal hand loading tools and a few Himmelwright molds.

Not sure (can't tell for sure from picture) but seems like bullet seating threaded rod has been replaced and decapping pin missing.
Mmmm! Nice!

Post us some pictures of these when you have a chance?
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  #75  
Old 07-23-2020, 04:30 AM
Tony M. Tony M. is offline
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32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
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I'm a little late to the party (as usual?) but I thought I'd add a few more points of reference from my collection of tools and molds.

My 32-44 ideal tool was for the gallery loads and cast a .321 ball and had a .320 sizing hole.

I also have a 2 cavity ideal separate block mold that casts a 32362 bullet (at .324 in pure lead) and a .321 round ball, although the RB cavity is specified on the mold as .319.

My Peanut handle mold casts an 80 grain (apx.) bullet at .314 (in pure lead) that is clearly the .32 S&W bullet, along with a .313 round ball. The priming portion of the mold will accept a case up to .340 (.32 S&W should be about .337).

I also had a winchester mold marked 32-44 S&W but it had been drilled out by someone long before I got it, so other than presenting the existence of such a thing, isn't terribly valuable as a reference.

Last edited by Tony M.; 07-23-2020 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 07-23-2020, 02:00 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
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32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
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Originally Posted by BMur View Post
I just want to convey exactly why I am very skeptical of the 1 1/2” grouping historical claim?

If you look at official Olympic targets that are used today along with very Trick small caliber low recoil custom High Tech pistols? You can see from the 10 meter target? Photo 1
And the 50 meter target? Photo 2

If you can shoot 1 1/2 groups? You would be a Gold Metal winner at ANY event! WORLD CHAMPION!!!!

Murph
If I got back in practice I could do 1-1/2 inch groups at ten meters with any of my old Service Revolvers or my early Colt Government Model, Colt 1902 Sporting, early .38 Specials, etc.

50 Meters...m-a-y-b-e, if getting back in practice, I could hold a five inch group...

Used to be able to hit a Cigarette Pack or Playing Card pretty much every time, at 50 Yards, one Handed, with various of my early 1900s Service Hand Guns...had to use Kentucky Windage with those.

I did not have any Target Pistols then.

But, indeed, 1-1/2 inch Groups at fifty meters with the 'New Model 3' Revolvers, whatever chambering, would be one heck of an accomplishment..!

One best eat lots of Carrots and Cod Livers to see such minute nuance of Sighting...and ease back a little on strong Coffee.

These are fairly heavy Revolvers too, especially the .32 - 44s...and, speaking for myself, I think my Arm would get tired and rubbery if doing a fifty round string..! Lol...

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 07-23-2020 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 07-23-2020, 02:04 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
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32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony M. View Post
I'm a little late to the party (as usual?) but I thought I'd add a few more points of reference from my collection of tools and molds.

My 32-44 ideal tool was for the gallery loads and cast a .321 ball and had a .320 sizing hole.

I also have a 2 cavity ideal separate block mold that casts a 32362 bullet (at .324 in pure lead) and a .321 round ball, although the RB cavity is specified on the mold as .319.

My Peanut handle mold casts an 80 grain (apx.) bullet at .314 (in pure lead) that is clearly the .32 S&W bullet, along with a .313 round ball. The priming portion of the mold will accept a case up to .340 (.32 S&W should be about .337).

I also had a winchester mold marked 32-44 but it had been drilled out by someone long before I got it, so other than presenting the existence of such a thing, isn't terribly valuable as a reference.
What fun!

Such rare and interesting accouterments..!

Is the Winchester Mold marked as "32-44" so a boy or girl glancing at it would know what it is?

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 07-23-2020 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 07-23-2020, 03:52 PM
Tony M. Tony M. is offline
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32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyeboteb View Post
What fun!

Such rare and interesting accouterments..!

Is the Winchester Mold marked as "32-44" so a boy or girl glancing at it would know what it is?
Sorry, I updated the post with the corrected marking of "32-44 S&W". Sadly as I said, someone drilled it out, I think to make fishing sinkers..
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Old 07-23-2020, 07:20 PM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default Winchester bullet mold

Tony M.,

That Winchester bullet mold ? Which type is it? Brass, Iron without wood handles? Or with wood handles. What a shame someone drilled it out!

Murph
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  #80  
Old 07-23-2020, 08:01 PM
Tony M. Tony M. is offline
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Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Tony M.,

That Winchester bullet mold ? Which type is it? Brass, Iron without wood handles? Or with wood handles. What a shame someone drilled it out!

Murph
Good questions, I'm sorry for leaving that out, especially since it is actually pertinent... It's an iron mold with wood handles and brass ferules at both end of the handles to the best of my recollection. I gave it to a friend who wanted to try brazing and re-cutting the cavity. Unfortunately he passed away shortly thereafter and I haven't seen it since. I could care less about the mold, but I miss my friend.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:23 PM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default Wood handle mold

Tony,
Sorry about your friend. I’ve also attended several funerals lately. We have no choice but to keep moving!

I was hoping you’d say it was a wood handled mold. It actually would have to be if it was a Legitimate 32-44 mold. I have never seen one but makes sense that Winchester would make one. That one would go for a lot if it was unaltered!

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 07-23-2020 at 09:25 PM.
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  #82  
Old 09-19-2020, 03:12 PM
Tony M. Tony M. is offline
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32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
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Since we're kind of collecting data points here, I thought I'd mention as I was going through some molds recently that I'd collected over time, I came across another S&W mold for the .32-44 or .320 RR. It casts a .322" RB (for gallery loads) and has a primer seating chamber that accepts the 32-44 case. This one is a bit earlier and pre-dates S&W adding their wooden 'peanut' handles to the molds.
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  #83  
Old 09-19-2020, 03:30 PM
BMur BMur is offline
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Default Revolving rifle

I've seen those also. I believe those are gallery load round balls for the Revolving Rifle, since those early iron handle molds were discontinued prior to 1887 and the introduction of the 32-44 target.

Rare mold.



Murph
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