Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-30-2020, 06:53 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!

I was fortunate enough to win this very early and extremely rare 32-44 S&W T (TARGET) Ideal reloading tool just today. Been looking for one for oh? about 30 years? Finally found it! This extremely rare surviving example in excellent condition proves many points that have remained unanswered for years. I've never even seen a photo of this tool before. Only those that are found in Ideal catalogs that date to about 1891.

So why is this tool so important?

First; It confirms the original bullet type( circa 1887)
Second: It will confirm original bullet diameter(.321?)
Third: It also confirms via cross referencing the Smith & Wesson peanut mold, when rarely found, we now can confirm that it is in fact the 32-44 Target bullet. Since the peanut molds are not marked. Left us guessing until now.

The Antique Reloading tool Collectors Association has also confirmed that via specific features? You can determine when an Ideal field loader was manufactured.( What year?)

Notice Photo 1? You can clearly see the priming feature is located forward of the bullet cavity. This feature was only found on early field loaders from 1884-1887. We also know that the target variations for the New Model 3 were introduced in late 1887. So this confirms that this "specific" extremely rare example was manufactured in 1887.(First year Target production)
It also confirms that the first bullet design seen on this specific tool in Photo 2 is the first type bullet for the 32-44 target Smith & Wesson in the first year of production. 1887!

Once I have the tool I will be able to also confirm the bullet diameter listed in few references as .321 being the first or original diameter bullet. (This has also been argued for many years)
The tool also has two points of reference for bullet diameter. Not only the bullet cavity? but also included in this late 1887 design is a bullet sizing feature. Which will be proof positive of the original bullet diameter.

Very exciting find for me personally. Not only does it answer and "confirm" a lot of questions? It will now allow me to load the proper bullet, size the bullet, and reload the case to reload and shoot my target 32-44. So now I can finally test fire it as it was originally designed so I can find out just how accurate it is. I'm stoked. Just thought I would share with the forum.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-11011f2e-258d-464f-80b7-953b95d5df00-jpeg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-28e40d13-9901-4259-8185-2483ce2b61ca-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-6c465e1b-07cd-4b3f-b6d7-3da6b3ab6f96-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-2e1ce192-7b1a-4b4d-99d3-cba97a8c131a-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-85b9ad8d-3908-4e58-8c7a-0726dfd583ae-jpg  


Last edited by BMur; 05-30-2020 at 07:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-30-2020, 07:46 PM
H Richard's Avatar
H Richard H Richard is offline
US Veteran
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 20,065
Likes: 12,586
Liked 16,329 Times in 6,401 Posts
Default

Congrats, that's one heck of a long search.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 05-30-2020, 08:10 PM
Bob L Bob L is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,887
Likes: 1,452
Liked 2,065 Times in 932 Posts
Default

That is a real neat find!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 05-31-2020, 06:51 AM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 2,030
Liked 2,506 Times in 822 Posts
Default

Having searched for something (in my case only years, not decades) I can understand your elation. Congratulations!

One of the reasons I frequent this site is to avail myself of the breadth of knowledge available. The excitement of this discovery is more knowledge to be added to the field. I look forward to seeing what thiscmold will cast and tell us.

The bullet appears to be round nose flat point. One grease groove should be adequate for the minimal amount of powder for the 32 target load. 1887? Would that be blackpowder or were they experimenting with the nitros by the ?

I do not notice a crimp groove. For a target load you would not need one. Neck tension should hold the bullet in place.

Looking forward to seeing a photograph of the mold and revolver together.

Kevin
__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 05-31-2020, 08:18 AM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

Great find Murph! Information about both the guns and loading for the early 32-44 has been sadly lacking for way too long. Itís good to see how doggedly you are pursuing it, and this new acquisition should add to our body of knowledge.

As a FWIW, my peanut handle 32 mould drops an oversized bullet, about .316Ē IIRC. I had assumed it was because of the alloy I was using, but now I wonder if it may have been for the 32-44 too.

Iíve bookmarked this thread and will be following with great interest to see what else you can bring to light.

Regards,
Froggie
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 05-31-2020, 12:24 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Follow-up photo's

Thanks for the positive feedback guys.

I will post follow up photo's and bullet spec's once I have the tool in hand to clarify the original bullet weight and diameter with a "pure lead" cast as designed. The original load was most definitely black powder in 1887. The bullet shown in the photo is an early inside lubricated bullet that was designed for "no" crimp. Just pressed into the case just below the tip of the case mouth. What the original lubricant was? I don't know but I will end up using soft lubricant for my shooting test (lithium). Which is accurate for that timeframe (callow or wax). As far as case length? That is easy because the chambers of the 32-44 target revolver have "case stops" which provide the correct case length for each chamber.
The historical claim for this Target load accuracy in the New Model 3 is 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards with target sights. That's a very impressive claim and somewhat hard to believe and I'm not going to believe it until I see it at the range.

I was pretty good with my 8 3/8" 44 Mag with open sights at 100 yards but no where near that accurate. Just enough to hit a pig or deer where it counts and fill the freezer in my younger days. My wife at that time made amazing Chile Verde stew.

The reason this mold is so rare is because of the year of production. 1887? That year represented many significant changes in the industry. Not only for Smith & Wesson but remaining specific to just Smith & Wesson we know for a fact that the Target variation was introduced that year. Also more significant is that the bullets for all the revolvers changed to "Inside Lubrication" in 1887. Which was a huge development.

So, it was a very pivotal year for the company products. Also, off the hook hard to find field loaders for that specific year. Any Target loaders are rare to extremely rare but one from the first year production I was beginning to think they didn't exist.

Like Charlie mentioned about his peanut mold? Often bullet casting from various rare target molds will have different diameter results. This was also feeding into legitimate opinions of the original bullet diameter of the 32-44 target round?

However, this early field loader will provide absolute proof of the original diameter bullet due to the "Bullet Sizing" feature that is a very rare feature on this early tool. Later rare target tools for some reason removed this feature. I don't know why but I can't wait to mic' that sizing die.

I suspect the bullet in pure lead will cast at about .323 which is Ideal's listing for the bullet diameter. This sizing die will be the absolute in this research. NO question!

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 05-31-2020 at 12:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 05-31-2020, 01:16 PM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 2,030
Liked 2,506 Times in 822 Posts
Default

Black powder will require specific black powder lube. Unless you plan to shoot hundreds of thousands rounds, I would suggest you buy a stick of blackpowder lube and plan on pan lubing the bullets. Others might suggest making your own lube, which is fun and educational but time spent not shooting.

Kevin
__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 05-31-2020, 02:54 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

Instructions I have read (and copied into my article) from the period of the middle S&W loaders says to dip the nose of the finished round in melted beef tallow. Iíd use that as a starting point.

Murph, did I send you a copy?

Froggie

Last edited by Green Frog; 05-31-2020 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Correct *#@$ spell check!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 05-31-2020, 04:24 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,522
Likes: 4
Liked 1,376 Times in 771 Posts
Default .32-44 mold

Here's mine. It's the later design of the .32-44 Ideal tool. The .38-44 tool is the early style. The .32-44 mold mic's to .319 cold.
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-dscn2001-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-dscn1993-jpg  
__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 05-31-2020, 04:30 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Lubrication and case selection

Thanks Kevin and Charlie,
I plan on trying a couple of different lubricants. Charlie, I did hard copy those attachments that you sent me. Thanks again!

I honestly don't like to get to far ahead. I'm kind of a worry wart when it comes to "rare" package delivery? I'm bad, I admit it. I mean, I can't replace this item so I won't feel better until I have it in hand.

I'm also going to have to work on case selection. I know of a few rifle cases that will work but the early cases were balloon head design and held more black powder so I'm going to have to think about that aspect so I can shove as much black powder into the case as possible to achieve respectable bullet speed or my accuracy results will suffer I'm sure.

Murph
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 05-31-2020, 04:36 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Mike's loader

Wow! Mike,
Your rare 32-44 T loader is a post 1902 version that has the spru screw lock on the loading block. I'm surprised that it still has the sizing die included. I've seen later examples that do not.

Can you please show a photo of the bullet cavity for both your loaders? Is your 32-44 the same as my earlier loader? Also, can you please mic the sizing die(the hole or boss on the back side of the tool) and post results?

Thanks,

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 05-31-2020 at 04:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-31-2020, 05:59 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,522
Likes: 4
Liked 1,376 Times in 771 Posts
Default .32-44 mold

Murph, the sizing die is .345" at the depth the mic will go. It appears to be slightly tapered the deeper one probes. The hole starts at .363". Here's a few photos of the bullet molds of the two tools beginning with the .32-44 (two photos) then the .38-44. The design of the .32-44 appears the same as your photo but the bullet is round nose.
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-dscn2004-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-dscn2005-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-dscn2009-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-dscn2010-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-dscn2011-jpg  

__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 05-31-2020, 06:55 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Case sizing die measurement

Mike,
Thanks much for taking the time to document the die. I think you are measuring the Case sizing/ loading die feature? Thatís the die with the Adjustable threaded stem?
See photo. The yellow arrow points to the ďbulletĒ sizing die feature of the tool. This represents the absolute final bullet diameter once the molded and lubed bullet is pushed through that itty bitty hole. Could you please measure that hole from the outside of the handle? Going into the hole with your caliper from the yellow arrow side?
This will tell us the true designed final diameter of the cast lead bullet now lubed and sized before loading into the case.

Thanks!

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-2fac0aa3-d586-46ee-9b15-1c770c67b368-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 05-31-2020 at 06:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 05-31-2020, 08:00 PM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 2,030
Liked 2,506 Times in 822 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Thanks Kevin and Charlie,
I plan on trying a couple of different lubricants. Charlie, I did hard copy those attachments that you sent me. Thanks again!

I honestly don't like to get to far ahead. I'm kind of a worry wart when it comes to "rare" package delivery? I'm bad, I admit it. I mean, I can't replace this item so I won't feel better until I have it in hand.

I'm also going to have to work on case selection. I know of a few rifle cases that will work but the early cases were balloon head design and held more black powder so I'm going to have to think about that aspect so I can shove as much black powder into the case as possible to achieve respectable bullet speed or my accuracy results will suffer I'm sure.

Murph
Totally understand the worry until in hand.

There are two Powders available today that are the equal of some of the old powders, Swiss and Olde Eynesford. I use OE and am quite pleased with it. For the 32, I would recommend using ffffG, or 4f. I use it in all of my handgun cartridges. And one rifle cartridge. One pound will probably get you a lifetime of loads.

Kevin
__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Last edited by StrawHat; 05-31-2020 at 08:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 05-31-2020, 08:28 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,522
Likes: 4
Liked 1,376 Times in 771 Posts
Default

Oops. I thought I could read and comprehend but I loused up on which die you were looking for. I measured the case sizing/loading die. To your question: The BULLET size is .321".
__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 05-31-2020, 09:09 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Great find Murph!!

How cool..!

The Bullet that old outfit Throws, appears to my own glance to be the same as the eventuating Ideal then Lyman 32362.

Here is a snap shot of my Lyman Mold, for that Bullet -

It is an odd little thing! Having the 'rounded' Base edges...

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 05-31-2020 at 09:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 05-31-2020, 09:53 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Lyman SC iron mold

Hey Phil,
Wow! That's a rare single cavity iron mold for sure and a late one to boot. Very serviceable. You could make thousands of bullets with that iron mold and sell them to target shooters! I can't imagine what other gun that bullet would be for since it only lists as the 32-44 target for bullet design, diameter, and weight. Great collectable!

I looked it up in my historical Ideal/Lyman list and it shows up but I always thought it was only offered in the old wood handled molds? I guess I was wrong. This would have to date post 1926 to ? but I also noticed that it was used in Ideal cases that were designed for a short range rifle...I don't know which one though?

see photo:

& Thanks much for posting!


Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-78004a44-6b4c-4400-b6df-70759f712208-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 05-31-2020 at 10:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 05-31-2020, 10:13 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Bullet sizing die measurement

Hey Mike,
Thanks much for following through with that sizing die measurement. See photo. You will notice from this circa 1891 Ideal catalog on page 19?

They list the final diameter of the "EARLY" bullet as .323. However, I was expecting the sizing diameter to be smaller from your later mold since it is very likely that your rare loader is from the later "Smokeless" era. Yours was manufactured from 1902-1910 when Marlin Firearms Co. bought out Ideal and the molds and tools are so marked.

I will cross reference my early Ideal loader bullet sizing die( Hopefully, when it arrives?) to see exactly what it measures? Will it be the same? I don't know. It is possible that the early sizer will be larger since it was designed and manufactured during the "Black powder era" and I have found in my research that often bullet diameters changed for the same caliber if they survived into the Smokeless Era. So we shall see.

NOTE: Did you notice also that it lists a "Black Powder load"? for the 32-44 and the 38-44? That's kinda "huge" too isn't it?

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-5a0eaf8d-63fe-41aa-bb4f-5f6fa444dfeb-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 05-31-2020 at 10:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 05-31-2020, 10:22 PM
orbruce's Avatar
orbruce orbruce is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: pacific northwest
Posts: 299
Likes: 21
Liked 270 Times in 85 Posts
Default 32-44 Target bullet

Here's a few photos of an original S&W 32-44 reloading set. The bullet is very similar to the Ideal mold. When the bullet is seated through the long tube it's diameter is .320.

B. Mower
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-img_9115-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-img_9117-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-img_9118-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-img_9121-jpg  
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #20  
Old 05-31-2020, 10:47 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Powder cups?

B. Mower,
Great and rare kit. Can you convey please what the two powder cups are marked in your kit? Do they match the 1891 recommended black powder load for the 32-44?
Should be 11 grains on the larger cup and 6 grains for the Gallery or ball load?

Thanks for sharing.



Murph
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 05-31-2020, 10:57 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,522
Likes: 4
Liked 1,376 Times in 771 Posts
Default

FWIW, I've seen references to 10 grains black powder also.
__________________
Mike Maher #283
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #22  
Old 06-01-2020, 01:00 AM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Hey Phil,
Wow! That's a rare single cavity iron mold for sure and a late one to boot. Very serviceable. You could make thousands of bullets with that iron mold and sell them to target shooters! I can't imagine what other gun that bullet would be for since it only lists as the 32-44 target for bullet design, diameter, and weight. Great collectable!

I looked it up in my historical Ideal/Lyman list and it shows up but I always thought it was only offered in the old wood handled molds? I guess I was wrong. This would have to date post 1926 to ? but I also noticed that it was used in Ideal cases that were designed for a short range rifle...I don't know which one though?

see photo:

& Thanks much for posting!


Murph
Hi Murph!

It is surprising to me also that Lyman would offer a Mold for this Bullet so relatively recently.

Possibly they kept the Cherry-Cutter on hand, and one could write to them and Order a Mold.

And, indeed, I know of nothing else Cartridge wise for this Bullet, other than the .32 - 44, and as a "light" Bullet for the .320RR and the .32 Ideal Rifle Cartridge of that era.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-01-2020, 02:12 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default 32 Ideal Rifle cartridge

Phil,
I looked up the 32 Ideal Rifle cartridge. See attached photo.
Looks like the .323 diameter bullet that was originally designed for the 32-44 Target functioned well in the Stevens Rifle. So that justified the continued production of the bullet mold. It still is absolutely the Target bullet casting so it still could have been purchased for a Target 32/44 S&W!

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-e3266739-b68b-48cb-a1c0-5bff2b805f80-jpeg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-01-2020 at 02:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-01-2020, 06:05 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

I looked in my copy (old issue) of Cartridges of the World, and couldn't find a listing for the 32-44 target round. Where can I get information about it?


Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-01-2020, 06:46 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
I looked in my copy (old issue) of Cartridges of the World, and couldn't find a listing for the 32-44 target round. Where can I get information about it?


Froggie
What do you want to know?

There's a bunch of detailed info in a prior recent thread about the Cartridge, I'll see if I can find it and post you the link.

Here -

?Value on a N Mod #3 ?

Last edited by Oyeboteb; 06-01-2020 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-01-2020, 06:52 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

Mostly Iíd like to know the case dimensions... Iíd been mistakenly assuming it was a target loading of the standard 32 S&W L case.

Froggie

Last edited by Green Frog; 06-01-2020 at 06:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-01-2020, 08:45 PM
mmaher94087 mmaher94087 is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,522
Likes: 4
Liked 1,376 Times in 771 Posts
Default

Green Frog, Some information on the .32-44 round is found in "Cartridges and Their Handguns", Charles Sudam, 1977, P145. This is out of print; a paperback. The info is sometimes taken from cartridges that Chuck (RIP) knocked down to measure and may not always reflect the published factory specs. The book spec's the Head stamp, Rim, Case Mouth, Case Length, Bullet Diameter, Bullet weight and Powder Charge. Some info can be missing such as the bullet diameter of the .32-44. I'm sure there must be another (better?) reference but I don't have it.

Add: I can scan or supply you with the .32-44 info from the book. I'll be out tomorrow for a while though.
__________________
Mike Maher #283

Last edited by mmaher94087; 06-01-2020 at 08:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 06-01-2020, 09:36 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Match loading for the 32-44 S&W Target

Hey Charlie,
I just received a tracking number for my 32-44 Target loader so now I'm feeling better about it making it?

So, I have already started with my case work for "match" loading my New Model 3 Target 32-44.

In a previous post Phil mentioned using the 32/20 Winchester rifle cartridge as a cartridge base for loading the 32-44 target round.

I've gotten that far with my match loading and I agree with Phil that this case is a perfect match to load the 32-44 target round.

I've already used a depth guage on my cylinder and measured the case stops, chamber width, throat, bore land and groove and referred to my early loading manual data previously posted. This is what I have so far for the case specs:

Bullet diameter: .323 (cast)
Bullet weight : 83 grains
Bullet type: Inside lubricated, Pure lead, Flat nose, double ban
Bullet lube: Soft "Black powder lubricant"
Case length: .980 (Measured and proven from my original Target cylinder)
Overall case length: *1.020 ( bullet slightly sticking out) as seen on an early UMC cartridge box. I will have to prove this however because I plan on using the full load of 11 grains of FFFG powder in the Swiss load as recommended by another member. Swiss powder is more powerful than most.
Case diameter: .347
Head diameter: .403
Powder select: Swiss Black powder
Powder load: 11 grains FFFG(compressed) Weight not volume.


This is a "Match loading" for my 32-44 cylinder chamber to case stop and throat. Every aspect of the loading will be weighed and measured to duplicate each round as closely as possible for better results at the range.

The 32/20 Winchester rifle cartridge is a perfect match from a case width, head diameter standpoint. I will have to match trim all the cases to be loaded and also expand only slightly the throat of the Winchester 32/20 case to meet and match the bullet diameter but the case is "perfect" for the task and I expect excellent results.

* Will prove with final product

Murph

I have to wait for the loading tool to confirm my final bullet diameter since it has a bullet sizer included. Mikes came out to .321 so we will see shortly.

Last edited by BMur; 06-02-2020 at 01:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 06-01-2020, 09:39 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

Thanks Mike, that would be great. I’ll send you a PM with my e-mail so you can send me a scan.

Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-01-2020, 09:51 PM
orbruce's Avatar
orbruce orbruce is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: pacific northwest
Posts: 299
Likes: 21
Liked 270 Times in 85 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
B. Mower,
Great and rare kit. Can you convey please what the two powder cups are marked in your kit? Do they match the 1891 recommended black powder load for the 32-44?
Should be 11 grains on the larger cup and 6 grains for the Gallery or ball load?

Thanks for sharing.



Murph
Murph,

The measures are not marked. I estimated the large at 12 grains and the small at 7 grains. I believe I used a black powder substitute to measure the capacities.

B. Mower
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #31  
Old 06-03-2020, 04:14 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Black powder scoops

B.Mower,
Well, one thing is for sure. Those scoops in your kit are Black Powder scoops. Charlie and I have been looking into the reloading kits. He just recently obtained a 1903 S&W catalog and it shows the exact same kit that is shown in the 1887 catalog with the same Black Powder scoops. In the N&J book they also show a photo of what they call an "early 1900's " reloading kit that is now proven to be later than 1903 and it also shows Black Powder scoops. In fact it's the latest kit that I've ever seen with knurled plungers mixed in with the mushroom type.
So I'm not sure at this point that any of the kits had Semi-Smokeless or Smokeless scoops? Looking at the early reloading catalogs; Du Pont and Kings Smokeless and Semi-Smokeless show much lower "volume" loads. So Smokeless scoops even early ones would be much smaller by volume. Makes me wonder if they ever came out with a smokeless load for the 32-44? (see photo). Another reference that backs up the Ideal catalog loading data from 1891. 11 grains of Black Powder and 83 grain bullet?

My early Ideal tool might be delivered today. Got my fingers crossed. Once it's here I will take some measurements to see what the early tool had to offer so we can cross reference with Mikes post 1902 Target loading tool.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-48c8091d-7198-4361-b66a-a387a014f260-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-03-2020 at 04:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #32  
Old 06-03-2020, 09:46 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Antique Ideal 32-44 T loader Arrived today

I'm very happy with the early loader and that it arrived safely. It's in better condition than I imagined. See photo's.

The cavity is excellent and the bullet sizing die and case sizing/loading die are also excellent.

I measured both based on a 4 point measurement and averaged in the result. The bullet sizer at 45 degree angles and at each corner of the upper and lower bans for the bullet cavity.

Results:

Bullet diameter "CAST": .323

Sizing Diameter: .321

This is within tolerance of B.Mower's loading kit. He found .320...so that' pretty darn close for these antique loaders! It also matches Mikes circa post 1902 sizing die at .321.

So, I'm pretty confident that we are standing on solid ground here with the original bullet size cast at .323 and the original design cast pure lead bullet sized down between .320/.321. This being Historically accurate for the Smith & Wesson Target .32-44 New Model 3 throughout production.

It's possible that there was a slight change to the bullet design and weight since Mike's post 1902 cavity looks like it has a more rounder bullet? However, basically they are close to matching. I would imagine also that you could use the Revolving Rifle bullet in the 32-44 Target since the diameter is the same.

All of these extreme bullet diameter and weight differences that you find on the internet regarding the 32-44 Target are simply not possible unless you can prove they match another gun of the same caliber. A Target gun has very tight tolerances so it is very "accurate" at the range.

I'm busy for the next few days but after that I will mold some pure lead bullets with this tool and match weigh them within 1 grain. I intend to match load 24 cartridges that will provide 4 complete cylinder loads for the range test.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-b7898af9-7964-428d-8eae-1b31909dc53a-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-5777cd5b-b3ef-44c0-ba55-a1fbf4902147-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-0834ae4d-9842-41b4-9ac7-5afe9b2680c7-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-03-2020 at 09:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #33  
Old 06-04-2020, 03:30 AM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post

It's possible that there was a slight change to the bullet design and weight since Mike's post 1902 cavity looks like it has a more rounder bullet? However, basically they are close to matching. I would imagine also that you could use the Revolving Rifle bullet in the 32-44 Target since the diameter is the same.


Murph
Here's the .320 RR Bullet ( again, a Lyman Mold of relatively modern or recent era, so, quite puzzling to me such would even exist! )

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

There's nothing else which took or takes these diameter Bullets.

The Japanese 'Nambu' Pistol is close, but the Bullet was a different design and weight.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #34  
Old 06-04-2020, 05:40 AM
zackie zackie is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

Thanks for sharing the information, its very helpful and I guess we all know what to expect. Cheers
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-04-2020, 07:54 AM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

Just for the record, there were several 32 cal and 8 mm rifle cartridges for which the bullet shown would have made an appropriate gallery load. That may also help explain why that mould remained in inventory so long. Oyeboteb, if you take that image over to the Schuetzen forum at ASSRA.COM, somebody will probably recognize it. If I just saw that mould “in the wild” I would assume that it would be a gallery bullet for a 32-40 or one of the German Schuetzen rifles, but I may just be showing my bias based on limited experience.

Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-04-2020, 10:20 AM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Rare molds

Dang Phil,
You have all the good stuff.

That bullet would also work really well in the 32-44 Target but would limit the black powder load unless you seated the bullet with a lot of the nose sticking out?
The Ideal/ Lyman Historical reference Refers once again to the Ideal rifle cartridge for mold number 32359. ( See photo)

Iíd bet it was a special order by a customer when the mold was still available. References claim from 1903-1940ís for the Stevens rifle. So this mold could have been ordered anytime during those years listed. ( Post 1926, likely much later) Still, not many out there thatís for sure!

** Another clue is the cherrie number on each mold? Thatís the number below the bullet type. So the number below the 32359 is cherrie number 863. Thatís a late number so the mold was produced probably in the 1930ís.

Your other mold has a cherrie number 616. Likely late 20ís early 30ís but you would also have to cross reference the Suffux R7 stamp. So compared to other molds with the same suffix and cherrie number that might still be ď In the boxĒ? A yellow box would be 20ís and early dull orange box is 30ís. Bright orange box is 40ís. Iíve done a lot of research on Ideal/Lyman. Great collectibles and very well made stuff!!

Remember also that none of these molds that lack fixed handles were made Pre-1926. Reason being that even the early Ideal molds have the Middlefield address. That didnít happen until 1926!
So your Lyman molds are much later.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-b1e0886b-e6de-4aea-87ad-250a784b3598-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-04-2020 at 10:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 06-04-2020, 10:43 AM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Dang Phil,
You have all the good stuff.

That bullet would also work really well in the 32-44 Target but would limit the black powder load unless you seated the bullet with a lot of the nose sticking out?
The Ideal/ Lyman Historical reference Refers once again to the Ideal rifle cartridge for mold number 32359. ( See photo)

Iíd bet it was a special order by a customer when the mold was still available. References claim from 1903-1940ís for the Stevens rifle. So this mold could have been ordered anytime during those years listed. ( Post 1926, likely much later) Still, not many out there thatís for sure!

** Another clue is the cherrie number on each mold? Thatís the number below the bullet type. So the number below the 32359 is cherrie number 863. Thatís a late number so the mold was produced probably in the 1930ís.

Your other mold has a cherrie number 616. Likely late 20ís early 30ís but you would also have to cross reference the Suffux R7 stamp. So compared to other molds with the same suffix and cherrie number that might still be ď In the boxĒ? A yellow box would be 20ís and early dull orange box is 30ís. Bright orange box is 40ís. Iíve done a lot of research on Ideal/Lyman. Great collectibles and very well made stuff!!

Remember also that none of these molds that lack fixed handles were made Pre-1926. Reason being that even the early Ideal molds have the Middlefield address. That didnít happen until 1926!
So your Lyman molds are much later.

Murph
I'll cast some up soon, and will see how they seem for the .32 - 44 Cartridge.

If it were back-when, we could Mail off a design to 'IDEAL' for a lovely .323 Himmelwright style Wadcutter Mold.

'NOE' and others will gladly make one too, I am sure, if one wanted.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #38  
Old 06-05-2020, 02:50 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Case selection & Comparison

Iím making time today to trim my 32/20 Winchester cases to the proper length. Just wanted to clarify why I have chosen the 32/20 case to load for the 32-44 Target.
Below photos depict candidates for the project. 32 Ideal, 32 Self Loading & the 32/20. ALL of the cases require trimming down to .980 so honestly there is no easy solution. The cost comparison and more importantly ďavailabilityĒ of the cases puts the 32/20 as the obvious choice in my mind. 24 cents per shell for the 32/20 and those are ďnew casesĒ. The 32 Ideal is a whopping $4.64 per case and the 32 self loading is a bulk purchase of basically old rounds that would have to be completely disassembled, cleaned, trimmed and reloaded.
So thatís why I have chosen the 32/20 as the case to manufacture a 32-44 Target black powder load.

Note: The yellow line on the 32/20 case shows the approximate location that the case will be cut, trimmed, and the mouth opened to the proper .321 case mouth diameter to load the target bullet.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-cfe6b185-c881-4081-aac8-bfe7f4a9eef1-jpeg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-b2b56c30-7cb6-4708-a386-2b01100e1944-jpeg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-ffbf2c25-e225-4ee5-82ef-ffa87a5b352d-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-05-2020 at 02:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #39  
Old 06-05-2020, 06:21 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Case trimming & Expansion

Ok,
Lots of fun! Iím about half way done with the cases.
First step was to look through my bag of Flea Market drill bits that you can get super cheap. The perfect size to expand the case mouth is a 21/64ths bit. It micís at .325 so I simply ran fine sand paper on the bit During rotation until it settled in at .323 diameter.
See photo 1

I was pleased that I did not have to anneal (heat) the case. I simply applied a light lubricant and pushed the expander rod (drill bit) into the case mouth by hand. Worked perfectly!

See photo 2 of trimmed case next to original.

Unfortunately, when I was looking through my bag of old 32/20 shells I didnít realized that it was a grab bag of multiple makes/ manufacturers. See photo 3

So much for the ď Match testĒ but it still will be close enough in my opinion since I am picking only the best of the lot.

* Notice the Western case has a deformed primer pocket charge hole? Thatís not good for a match test!

I use my MTD set to measure all of the charge or ďFlashĒ Holes to make sure they match. Thatís basically as good as itís going to get. Primer depth and flash hole are matching on the Peters and Remington cases.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-2c0390f7-6e31-4bba-a988-ee80c770ffeb-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-1f32a2e8-3961-4c1a-b008-d950c8900693-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-f653ce5c-15fb-4943-9079-8bf17a1657f6-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-e9c9bcf9-f623-43a6-bac3-65425bbaffe3-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-05-2020 at 06:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #40  
Old 06-05-2020, 10:26 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Ok,
Lots of fun! Iím about half way done with the cases.
First step was to look through my bag of Flea Market drill bits that you can get super cheap. The perfect size to expand the case mouth is a 21/64ths bit. It micís at .325 so I simply ran fine sand paper on the bit During rotation until it settled in at .323 diameter.
See photo 1

I was pleased that I did not have to anneal (heat) the case. I simply applied a light lubricant and pushed the expander rod (drill bit) into the case mouth by hand. Worked perfectly!

See photo 2 of trimmed case next to original.

Unfortunately, when I was looking through my bag of old 32/20 shells I didnít realized that it was a grab bag of multiple makes/ manufacturers. See photo 3

So much for the ď Match testĒ but it still will be close enough in my opinion since I am picking only the best of the lot.

* Notice the Western case has a deformed primer pocket charge hole? Thatís not good for a match test!

I use my MTD set to measure all of the charge or ďFlashĒ Holes to make sure they match. Thatís basically as good as itís going to get. Primer depth and flash hole are matching on the Peters and Remington cases.

Murph
Good going Murph!!

I also elected to go with .32 - 20 Brass, but you are way ahead of me on 'follow through' as I have not done anything yet other than to gather an Expander Plug, Case Trimmer, and Molds...while 'Work Work' has been taking about all my waking time these last months...

So, go you!!

Woo Hoo!

I'll catch up, eventually!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #41  
Old 06-05-2020, 10:34 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
Just for the record, there were several 32 cal and 8 mm rifle cartridges for which the bullet shown would have made an appropriate gallery load. That may also help explain why that mould remained in inventory so long. Oyeboteb, if you take that image over to the Schuetzen forum at ASSRA.COM, somebody will probably recognize it. If I just saw that mould ďin the wildĒ I would assume that it would be a gallery bullet for a 32-40 or one of the German Schuetzen rifles, but I may just be showing my bias based on limited experience.

Froggie
Good mention!

I had not thought of .32 - 40 Ballard...or, I had assumed it was same Bullet diameter as .32 - 20 for not having looked in to it!

Indeed, that'd be a contender for either of the Bullets my two "323" Molds throw.

No doubt there are some relatively obscure European Rifle Cartridges also, where they would work nicely.

8mm Mauser is supposed to be .324, so, it is too large really for "as is"...I had checked on that one when originally imagining I might want to Crimp and wondering what Dies I might find to do so.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #42  
Old 06-05-2020, 10:36 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Cases completed

I just want to run through my basic procedure for cutting cases on a small volume basis. If anyone is interested?

If Iím cutting less than 50 cases? I use this simple and very accurate method.
Photo 1
Shows the scribe mark where the case is to be cut.

Photo 2
shows an inverted simple 120 Volt variable speed drill on a bench top with a matching inside diameter rod. In this case a very common .316 diameter bolt that fits snug inside the case mouth.

Photo 3
shows how smoothly the case spins on the drill.

Photo 4
shows the placement of a Dremel with cutting wheel spinning in the opposite direction of the drill and shell. Do not spin at high speed! Low speed of about 250 RPM. This simple method is very fast and surprisingly accurate. Itís fun too!!

Photo 5 the completed shells.

I then bag them until ready for the next step in the reloading process.

The next step Is molding the bullets.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-623021b2-013b-4aa3-8491-802054266512-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-fadb46fa-4fc5-4cd0-be81-3be4b5b6842d-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-b77f0152-e52a-4146-97c9-028dac93b970-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-7f3a58d2-05fc-48ef-b3f2-440a8fcc01fa-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-adf704e5-273f-4edc-9cf3-f138ee8c1040-jpg  

Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #43  
Old 06-10-2020, 05:13 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Next step completed

Ok,
Well, I collect the Ideal field loaders but I admit I don't use them much. I prefer the modern stuff. Mainly because they kinda get hot but once you get the hang of it they are pretty fast.

I molded 54 bullets. Weighed each of them and they cast pretty darn close. 84-86 grains. I put aside the 84 & 85 grain bullets for the test shoot. I also measured the bullets cast and they came out to a steady .324. I'm not sure yet if I will size them down. I kind of like the larger diameter bullet for this test since I'm using black powder, "IF" it will chamber? Besides, loading it into the case will down size it to probably about .322 so I'm thinking right now to just load them as cast for the test.

The only real problem I had was the used 32/20 cases did not want to chamber in my 32-44 Target cylinder. Since I don't have a sizing die and since the Ideal loader doesn't size the case( I didn't know that)....I was forced to polish the cases until they fit. So, I strongly recommend if you have a target 32-44 and want to use the 32/20 cases? Buy new ones!

You can see from the photo's that once polished they chambered perfectly and the length I cut them to (.980) is also perfect and ran right to the edge of the case stops. So I'm happy with the outcome so far.

You can also see the bullet that I ran through the bore has "Perfect" contact with both lands and grooves. So I expect pretty accurate pattern shooting at the range.

So, next I will weigh the black powder and see how difficult it will be to load 11 grains of FFFG in this case. I honestly don't expect it to be an issue since the 32 S&W is listed at 9 grains? We shall see.


Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-34b12433-cefd-4013-87c2-3db8f151dc0d-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-b25f3222-d106-4f05-a533-4c8f70515bc9-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-aa93f7e8-6d3d-4d76-bde7-35580e54d216-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-677db115-d7b6-42c5-a78e-2383fc48576a-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-10-2020 at 05:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #44  
Old 06-10-2020, 05:42 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

Isn’t it fun to get an old gun up and running with appropriately old tools? Thanks for letting us vicariously share the experience.

Froggie
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #45  
Old 06-10-2020, 07:44 PM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 2,030
Liked 2,506 Times in 822 Posts
Default

Once you figure what you need for powder in an accurate load, consider making a scoop from an old cartridge case. 22 Hornet holds about 14 grains and a 380 case holds 10 or so.

You also can experiment with different granulations. 4fG might be a good fit for this small cartridge.

Kevin
__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #46  
Old 06-10-2020, 11:48 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default First one loaded

I couldnít wait so I weighed an 11 grain FFFG charge and tried the Ideal field loader. It works pretty well. You can see that the bullet sticks out a little more than originally designed due to the solid head case not able to hold as much Black powder. Also, I didnít want to compress the load too much or the case would distort
And not chamber. The main thing is that it does chamber! So Iíll load the rest tomorrow and post results.
You can also see from an original UMC box that the original Lead bullet in a balloon head Case load also stuck out.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-67707e35-c6fe-43c1-b8b3-0fab654d09f7-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-e3c13f5e-e683-4da8-b879-2e3465aa9de1-jpeg  
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #47  
Old 06-12-2020, 03:41 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default Loaded and ready!

Well,
The Troops are squared up and ready for the range.( Photo 1)

I will try to make it to the range next week but I have several projects going so it might be a little longer.
Plus, I received another mold in the mail. (See Last photo)

This Ideal mold is an ď ErrorĒ mold that was sold cheap back in the day. Usually itís a machining error but in this case the Bullet cavity was modified from a 2 lube gas check skirt to a 2 lube Heeled skirt which is perfect for my other Target New Model in 38/44.

So this weekend Iím going to make time to load up probably 50 rounds for my 38/44. That way I can shoot them both at the same time.

I donít like going to the range on the weekends anymore. It gets old very quickly for me getting hit in the head And face with a hot shell from the guy next table over blasting away with his 40 cal semi-auto. Doesnít help my accuracy much either. So Iíll wait til a mid-week opportunity and enjoy myself.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-8003de10-450a-4b82-bde7-3b9eaacb1eaf-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-8ee69755-dea2-4a5a-bf8c-02df14dc52be-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-7c5da811-63ec-4080-beb4-89d11c1c3482-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-a5aa4df7-641e-4e57-acf6-84c697b78521-jpeg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-cead6a05-f4d6-4637-8812-8c1448f4066e-jpeg  


Last edited by BMur; 06-12-2020 at 03:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #48  
Old 06-16-2020, 09:39 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: California
Posts: 911
Likes: 358
Liked 1,261 Times in 541 Posts
Default 38-44 Target is ready for the range

Made time today to finish loading 50 rounds for the 38-44 that I'm also bringing to the range with my 32-44 so I can get more done. I'll probably bring a 38 special M&P with me also since they are tremendous fun to shoot.

I used .357 magnum shells and loaded them with a compressed load of 22 grains of FFFG black powder. (Photo 1). Also used the bullet I posted earlier. Should perform well. We shall see.

I also took a closer look at the cylinder chamber and was surprised to see a "case stop" at the very end of the chamber. Photo 2. My 38-44 is the rarest variation having the long frame and long cylinder( listed as less than 400 manufactured) but they never changed the cartridge from the earlier short frame, short cylinder. I was thinking about that when I was reloading and without the case stop? The accuracy would suffer.

So when I looked closer I could actually see that Smith & Wesson did machine a small throat at the very end of the chamber. Amazing. They don't miss much do they?

I'll post range results some time next week. I'm full up right now.


Murph
Attached Thumbnails
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-09558ac0-44b4-4377-a8bf-009ad64c3aee-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-cbd8527e-182e-49c3-87b0-b51dcebbe027-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-c0f29ea8-048b-4b21-8d3e-97eb0abde784-jpg   32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!-1e0d2664-3c99-4f07-9bdc-7ed3e030c736-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 06-16-2020 at 09:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #49  
Old 06-16-2020, 09:53 PM
Oyeboteb Oyeboteb is offline
SWCA Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 1
Liked 421 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMur View Post
Made time today to finish loading 50 rounds for the 38-44 that I'm also bringing to the range with my 32-44 so I can get more done. I'll probably bring a 38 special M&P with me also since they are tremendous fun to shoot.

I used .357 magnum shells and loaded them with a compressed load of 22 grains of FFFG black powder. (Photo 1). Also used the bullet I posted earlier. Should perform well. We shall see.

I also took a closer look at the cylinder chamber and was surprised to see a "case stop" at the very end of the chamber. Photo 2. My 38-44 is the rarest variation having the long frame and long cylinder( listed as less than 400 manufactured) but they never changed the cartridge from the earlier short frame, short cylinder. I was thinking about that when I was reloading and without the case stop? The accuracy would suffer.

So when I looked closer I could actually see that Smith & Wesson did machine a small throat at the very end of the chamber. Amazing. They don't miss much do they?

I'll post range results some time next week. I'm full up right now.


Murph
Chambering for the ".38 - 44" Cartridge...if the Cylinder is the longer-later one and has the 'step', or, if the Cylinder is the earlier shorter one with no 'step', there should be no effect on accuracy either way...assuming with the longer Cylinder, that the Bullet is sized to be a snug fit to the ID of the Step-end anyway.

It would have been a horrible faux pas if they had not done this with the longer Cylinder.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #50  
Old 06-17-2020, 08:27 AM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed! 32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,802
Likes: 744
Liked 4,889 Times in 2,328 Posts
Default

Murph,

I’m getting confused here. This thread started out (according to its title) discussing the 32-44 target round, but now it seems to have drifted over to 38-44. Just a suggestion, but maybe we should have a separate thread for the second cartridge to avoid further confusion. Just a suggestion, and I’m enjoying reading about both, but it’s a little hard to keep both cartridges straight.

Your Friend the Frog
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Bullet Holes" by Douglas B. Wesson - Should I Buy it? 357magster The Lounge 4 09-25-2016 10:00 AM
Smith & Wesson Model 627-1 5" Target Champion SWfanNorway S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 15 05-08-2015 06:43 PM
Smith & Wesson 25-2 "1955" .45ACP Target verizonguy GUNS - For Sale or Trade 5 03-29-2012 10:14 PM
MOTHER OF PEARL INLAY GRIPS FIT SMITH&WESSON"J"FRAME ROUND BUTT"SEAL"#19 dajim_grips Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 4 12-09-2011 11:21 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:34 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)