History of Smith & Wesson Copies

BMur · #1 07-31-2020, 04:22 PM

I just thought I'd start a new thread on the copies that seem to have an interest on this forum. Might be an interesting subject to discuss?

Here is a number 2 Army copy made in England. I've seen this configuration but never put a name to the maker? It appears that "Meyers" was the manufacturer in England for this particular type copy. Obviously there were "many" copies of Smith & Wesson's manufactured by many companies at that time.
This one has the Birmingham proofs that were common in the 1870's found on British made handguns. I've seen these type of proofs on Webleys, various "early" bulldogs only, and Early cartridge Colt's that were shipped to the London Agency. Specifically, Lightnings, Newlines, and House Pistols.

So, in my opinion, Webley was most definitely involved as well as Tranter on a large scale. The type of proof marks on this copy were not used for very long.

Belgian made copies are a definite as well. This type of research is very similar to researching the Bulldog copies of the late 1870's through the turn of the century. In fact it's identical to those methods of copying various designs used by many gun makers. If the copy is not signed or initialed by the maker? It would be difficult to establish who made the copy. In this case the maker stamped the barrel. "Meyers"

Many of the literally millions of Bulldog copies are easily identified by various initials under the grip frame. These Smith & Wesson copies are likely "exactly" the same. If one was to look under the grips for initials, a manufacturer may be identified. There are many books/Authors out there that have identified through research who the gun makers are based on those markings under the grip.

In fact when I was researching Bulldogs I found that many Major Distributors in the US were actually purchasing copies! and selling them here in the USA. You can see clear evidence in the Sears & Roebuck catalogs, selling Belgian made bulldogs cheap! San Francisco before the 1906 Great Quake and fire was selling the "California Bulldog" that was made by a manufacturer in Belgium and shipped here on contract!

When researching the Bulldogs, I even found "Patents" applied for in the U.S.A. by Belgian gunmakers! Some of those patents look exactly like Smith & Wessons! and they were "Approved" by the patent office!!! A patent drawing that looks Identical to the 44 Russian but "hood winked" the Patent office by applying a feature that was never actually manufactured. Pretty slick. So, you tell me what was going on?

Murph

ISCS Yoda · #2 07-31-2020, 05:15 PM

Spanish makers made a lot of S&W copies, also. Here's an interesting article on the subject:

Spanish Imitations of Smith & Wesson Revolvers - Guisasola

(c) Sportsman's Vintage Press

One Spanish company made Schofield or similar S&W single action revolvers. Look for "GLC" on those guns. I've played around with this before so it was easy to do again. See also Academia Militar De Caballeria De Valladolid.

The Spanish maker "Eibar" made a considerable number of guns similar to S&W revolvers.

And then there was the "Ruby" (revolver, not pistol). Also an Eibar gun but might not be marked Eibar. Made in the mid-20th century, they are rarely a gun to be depended upon. I sold the one that I had many years ago after the NRA identified it for me and warned me to not shoot it! Some dealer at a gun show decades ago bought it from me and two other trash guns, too.

Pilot27 · #3 07-31-2020, 06:59 PM

Let me try and put some light into spanish copies. S&W russians made quite an impact on spanish army officials at the end of the XIX century. They were selected as "recomendados" by the army. What this meant is that each officer was to pay for a handgun of such caliber (44 S&W russian) and specifications.

National gunsmiths began making copies that ranged from quite good (Orbea) to absolute ****. Almost all of them were manufactured at the town of Eibar, in the vasque country region north of Spain.

You can get more info on this link:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/parte2cap4.pdf

Pilot27 · #4 07-31-2020, 07:05 PM

Still more info on DA spanish copies:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/parte2cap7.pdf

Pilot27 · #5 07-31-2020, 07:09 PM

More:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/parte2cap8.pdf

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/parte2cap9.pdf

JohnBz · #6 08-01-2020, 05:03 PM

And then there were the German copies of the Russian 44 made, I think, for the Russians after the American contracts ran out.

Does anyone have info regarding these? How was the quality of them?

Pilot27, any references to those?

LittleCooner · #7 08-01-2020, 06:09 PM

I have a Orbea Hermanos copy of the S&W Hand Ejector that I picked up at a gun show a few years ago. I need to dig it out and post a photo. Really looks good for a nickel finish that is over a hundred years old. The guy selling it claimed it was a 32-20 but the first shot of some ammo showed it was fire forming brass, so after research, I determined it was a 8mm Lebel, built under contract to the French as part of the WWI firearms buildup. I have acquire several boxes of Fiocchi ammo in 8 mm Lebel and fired a few rounds thru the old gal. Wow, it shoots great and no recoil with such a low velocity round. The gun is impressve for quality to consider it is a Spanish made copy, and made as a war side arm for the troops. Amazing about these spanish copies which lead to the labels we have on our S&W revolvers due to the high rate of copies that were being manufactured in Spain.

model3sw · #8 08-01-2020, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBz

And then there were the German copies of the Russian 44 made, I think, for the Russians after the American contracts ran out.

Does anyone have info regarding these? How was the quality of them?

Pilot27, any references to those?

I'm going strictly from memory, therefore, anyone with the exact "book" stats ... please, jump in to clarify my post.

The Russian Government purchased a large quantity of the S&W Model 3 Revolver in the early years. After a few years Russia stiffed S&W for payment on an extremely large order (or so it was said). This nearly bankrupted S&W.

You will find 3rd model Russians, made by S&W, with the last words on the rib of the barrel as " RUSSIAN MODEL ". These were made from the remaining parts of the last Russian Contract that were not yet completed or not yet shipped.

Russia, in turn, to get the same gun they loved but cheaper ... contracted copies from Ludwig & Lowe (Germany) and the TULA Arsenal (Russia).

The Ludwig & Lowe was decent enough but the Tula Arsenal copy was phenomenal. The Tula Arsenal Copies were surprisingly well made.

So well made were the Tula Arsenal Copies that some of the hard core Model 3 collectors consider the Tula Arsenal copy better quality than the original S&W Manufactured gun. This is an individual and personal belief by some collectors, of course, including me ... however ... a view that may not be shared by all

30 or so years ago I purchased a Tula Arsenal in appx 90-95% condition with no import marks. It came with a Roy Jinks letter to the (then) owner (who I purchased it from) that this was ... in fact ... not a S&W original manufacture but rather a Tula Arsenal copy. The letter goes on to kindly tell a short story of quality Russian copy Model 3s.

Best Regard, Sal Raimondi, Sr. ( MODEL3SW )

opoefc · #9 08-02-2020, 12:06 AM

Doug Wesson made a tour of the Spanish Eibar valley gun makers in the 1920s and at one of the better makers, was shown a Triple Lock copy thta he said was every bit as good, if not better, than an original S&W T-Lock. Maybe he was just being diplomatic, or ? ED

Kinman · #10 08-02-2020, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot27

Let me try and put some light into spanish copies. S&W russians made quite an impact on spanish army officials at the end of the XIX century. They were selected as "recomendados" by the army. What this meant is that each officer was to pay for a handgun of such caliber (44 S&W russian) and specifications.

National gunsmiths began making copies that ranged from quite good (Orbea) to absolute ****. Almost all of them were manufactured at the town of Eibar, in the vasque country region north of Spain.

You can get more info on this link:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/parte2cap4.pdf

Not be picky but I think you mean Basque, not vasque. I've known a few Basques and they don't even consider themselves Spanierds.

oldrdawg · #11 08-02-2020, 07:17 PM

The Standard Catalog states that some of the English copies may have been made by Webley, which makes perfect sense. Does anyone have further information about Webley being involved in these shenanigans?

BMur · #12 08-02-2020, 11:20 PM

oldrdawg,
It's a great point that you bring up. However, after spending countless hours researching old Patents? It's extremely time consuming to locate and confirm a patent by any particular Maker or Manufacturer unless you have one of two needed pieces of information. One is the Patent number, which is the best and fastest way to look up a patent. Two is a patent date which can take up to 4-5 hours of research to find since there were an average of 250-450 individual patents approved daily! Even back in the 1800's. It's amazing.

So, with reference to Webley? Normally, they have a patent stamp on their revolvers? but not always. They never have a date so its almost impossible to locate patents for their products without many hours of research. (See photo)

This patent application in the USA by Webley in the 1880's was simply to let us know not to copy their idea. However, I have stumbled on Patents that were actually applied in the USA by gunmakers in Spain, Germany, etc that are almost an exact copy of Smith & Wesson's Russian Revolver in 44 caliber during the time Smith & Wesson was still manufacturing that exact same gun. I'm sure others exist but it's extremely hard to look them up. I will post one soon. That information I have recorded is at another location. Later this week.

So, basically when a patent runs out in approx. 7 years? anyone can copy your expired patent unless you apply for a renewal? However, that's only applicable in The USA. So a lot of the so called copies aren't technically copies if the patent ran out? but not always. Sometimes the patent is still active though, Which seems to happen often!!!! Other countries apply for patents in the USA that focus on say a specific feature of a gun? but the gun in the drawing looks like a twin to the Smith & Wesson....How the patent was approved I have no idea. That patent should have clearly been denied but ? I have no clue what was going on. I've documented patent applications by smaller gun makers in the USA, like Jacob Rupertus? and for some reason his application took 9 months for approval! Of course by that time the market had changed and the idea was obsolete. So lots of questionable stuff going on that's for sure.

So I guess other countries came here and applied for patents that they already have approved in their country? Yet, for some reason we couldn't do the same? I guess we don't qualify? So they basically like your idea/ and just run off a million copies. Sort of like today?

I suppose it worked both ways though. Because we ran off a couple million bulldogs here in the USA that was basically a clone of the Webley Bulldog of approximately 1874-5..... I personally am on the fence about that one though because Forehand and Wadsworth patented a Bulldog like revolver in 1873!! That early double action pocket revolver was suppose to have been actually stamped "BULLDOG" on the first 50 manufactured. I have a Major Distributor catalog from 1875 a full year before the Webley bulldog was selling in any numbers here and Webley was still calling there revolvers "THE PUG" so I'm not sure what happed there? For some reason Forehand and Wadsworth was likely told to cease using the Bulldog Stamp?

I'm still searching for that Webley Patent in the USA patent office. It seems that we were held to a different standard in this country though. NO Question! Especially since Forehand and Wadsworth used the term "BULLDOG" on spur trigger revolvers in approximately 1871! Many years before the British Bulldog trade name appeared on the Market. So the origin of the term "BULLDOG" tradename for a revolver was most definitely the USA!

Murph

Pilot27 · #13 08-03-2020, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinman

Not be picky but I think you mean Basque, not vasque. I've known a few Basques and they don't even consider themselves Spanierds.

Yes, either in Euskera or English Basque is the correct term. Since my language is Spanish (Castellano) I wrote it with "v". Euskadi (Basque country) has a long history and strong national feeling. There was a long history of armed struggle for their independence, with several civil wars along the XIX and XX centuries in wich this claim was involved , among many others...

A few years back spaniards were not welcomed to some places in Euskadi, wich was pitiful being such an amazing country, region, or just land. I like to think that ever since we have come to an understanding that has helped both national feelings to discover each other.

At least that is my personal experience, since I do sleep with a Basque woman!

JohnBz · #14 08-03-2020, 01:49 PM

Sal,
Thank you for the Ludwig & Lowe info.

BMur · #15 08-06-2020, 06:18 PM

I found one of the Spanish Patents in my database. (see photos)
Granted, the April of 1878 Approved patent refers to a gas ejection design? But look at the “ Approved Patent” Drawing? It’s literally identical to the Smith & Wesson Model 3 Russian that was still in production with active patents of 1875 and 1877! I’ve never seen an actual example of this blatant copy with the gas ejector? But I’ve seen plenty without!

Murph

mmaher94087 · #16 08-06-2020, 08:37 PM

Looks like a step backward using the C*** type ejector plunger. From my perspective the plunger has been moved to the left side. Why bother as that system proved to be cumbersome and slow? I think the inventor was the gas ejector.

Pilot27 · #17 08-09-2020, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

I found one of the Spanish Patents in my database. (see photos)
Granted, the April of 1878 Approved patent refers to a gas ejection design? But look at the “ Approved Patent” Drawing? It’s literally identical to the Smith & Wesson Model 3 Russian that was still in production with active patents of 1875 and 1877! I’ve never seen an actual example of this blatant copy with the gas ejector? But I’ve seen plenty without!

Murph

About the Ibarra patent; it was a most cumbersome design to speed up reloading. I think it was intended for the 1858 and 1863 lefaucheaux revolvers in use with the spanish army. By the time Luis Ibarra, an artillery officer in the army, designed the device Smith Wesson copies and some scarce originals were in use in Spain.

Mr. Ibarra pushed through with his idea and adapted it to the S&W Russian revolvers. The advantage of such modified guns has not been discovered to his day, and one curious fact is that the turn of the cylinder had to be reversed!

Just to give you an idea of how things went, the board of acceptance that was to approve the modified guns gave a laconic answer by neither encouraging nor denying permission for such modification on the revolvers. Since they were privately purchased each official could do as they saw fit with them. That is the explanation to why you have never encountered any. I know the spanish army museum had the one subjected to trials and a few lefaucheaux have surfaced in private collections. Here you have another link to Mr. Calvo's article on the subject with some photos. It is in spanish, sorry about that.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/23-ibarra.pdf

danalex · #18 08-10-2020, 01:16 PM

There are some Meyer or Meyers gunsmiths in Belgium

MEYERS Guillaume Joseph, fabricant d’armes à Liège a déposé 7 brevets de 1866 à 1879.

Nouvelle page 0

Pilot27 · #19 08-28-2020, 08:54 AM

Not a S&W but since Ibarra conversion have been discussed I share some pictures I was able to take to one of the scarce survivors. It is a model 1863 pinfire revolver manufactered in 1869.