Authentic S&W "Express Guns"

BMur · #1 08-08-2020, 05:37 PM

I've been continuing my research on the Express Guns of the old west. Just wanted to post an update. It's amazing research. So far I've "confirmed" contracts generated by the EXPRESS companies with either the gun makers or Major Distributors for over 15,000 guns(pistols only!) purchased by the following companies between the years 1878-1898( This does not include rifles, derringers, shotguns, etc It also does not include the years 1850-1878!!:

Adams Express
Pacific Express
U.S. Express Co. (U.S.X.)
American Express Co.
Wells Fargo & Co's Express

I estimate that over 33,000 pistols were purchased during that 20 year period but It's actually very likely much higher than that! Unfortunately, Records for the smaller companies like Adams and Pacific are nil. They also seemed to prefer the less expensive revolvers like Thames and Iver Johnson.
It was a real WAR with crime back in those days. Previous research is "way low" on the total number of guns in various contracts. Often giving estimates of "approximately 1000 Smith & Wesson's were purchased"? when I find property numbers stamped on revolvers that exceed 2000. That's for just one contract. Or found between serial numbers 87xxx and 95xxx? When I find property stamps on the 38 New Departure that exceeds 3800 guns during an 18 year contract with a Major Distributor in Chicago!

These guns are very historical with ROCK solid provenance! I'm not sure why folks aren't more enthusiastic about them? These guns were there and directly involved with protecting valuable cargo and shootouts during countless Robberies.

Wells Fargo alone documented over 300 Stage Coach robberies in the 1860's alone. With an additional 347 robberies and attempted robberies from 1870-1884 on the West Coast.

That's like 3 robberies per month! So the history and provenance is pretty solid stuff.

Murph

metrotps · #2 08-08-2020, 05:57 PM

"It was a real WAR with crime back in those days." It's happening again out here on the "Left" coast where I live and in Chicago too.

Oyeboteb · #3 08-08-2020, 06:15 PM

The eastern Cities had greatly more violent Crime than the Frontiers and 'West', even if of course the Frontiers and the West for being more Romantic, were the usual choice of Hollywood for setting.

Being well armed anywhere, was a good idea from Colonial times on through today..!

Books · #4 08-09-2020, 09:12 AM

This one is a little out of your date range. It letters as leaving the factoru in 1901.

Books

BMur · #5 08-09-2020, 09:49 AM

Hi Books,

Thanks for posting yours,

I didn't go that high with my research but I would be interested in knowing the Property number stamp on the opposite side of the frame at the top? What number is there?

Also, should be US EX on either the lower frame front above the trigger guard in large block letters "OR" on the side of the barrel stamped deep in huge letters along with the matching serial number just like as seen in your photo?

Also, where does it letter to? Should be a Major Distributor and often part of a significant shipment of 12 to 50 or more guns? Which one please? I've found a few also that shipped directly to the Express Company in a large shipment.

Thanks,

Murph

Kurusu · #6 08-09-2020, 10:26 AM

Ah!

Whenever I read "express" gun.

This is what pops in my mind.

Authentic S&W "Express Guns"-hhryldbr500450-2-jpg

Not that I have one. Sadly.

BMur · #7 08-09-2020, 04:32 PM

Here you go Kurusu,
12ga Wells Fargo & Co Express shotgun and a Well's Fargo Schofield. Both found in the Valley of California that was once completely filled with Wells Fargo Express offices along the old Stage Coach line and near highway 49.

Here's the story:

During my travels at work many moons ago we would respond to large Natural Gas incidents often very dangerous and in any part of California. Often these pressure and leak issues would be in remote areas and part of restarting the system would require entering some homes close to the end of the line to monitor and restore the system.

This authentic Wells Fargo & Co. Express set came out of the Valley Area just shy of the foothills off highway 49 (Gold country) from a very old gentleman that had them hanging on his wall in the den. What a story he had and 'great' provenance to boot. I won't say what I paid for the set but it was a very long time ago. So, for the group of collectors that likes only shiny stuff? this is what "authentic", unaltered, not refinished or restored, original old west guns that saw the elephant and worked the line should look like.

Murph

Books · #8 08-10-2020, 10:23 AM

My USX (4th Model Safety Hammerless) has no USX markings except the one on the side plate.

It letters as being shipped to M.W. Robinson on March 9, 1901.

Books

BMur · #9 08-10-2020, 01:02 PM

Morning Books,
Thanks for posting that info. However, I am not able to authenticate your gun with my research notes. See photo's attached. I am away from my Express data base but the photo's attached should give you an idea of what authenticated markings look like?

I'm not saying that your's isn't legit? I just have found no evidence of this type of side plate only marking as being part of a large shipment to the U.S. Express Co. Nor have I ever been able to prove that "any" Express guns were purchased through the Robinson firm.

I have only authenticated two type markings on the New Departure that are "always" accompanied by a Property number somewhere stamped on the gun. Usually on the opposite side but not always. Also very important is that the gun should letter to a specific Distributor that supplied USX and in a volume shipment. Often over 350 guns per order and there were many of them over about an 18 year time frame. These purchasing agents for the various firms established a solid business relationship with specific firms and returned to them for re-supply. Almost like going to the same coffee shop every morning?

The 38 cal New Departure contracts were some of the largest contracts that I'm following by U.S. Express. They began much earlier than is found documented in other research with specific changes to the Property stamps and numbers during the duration of the contract that often lasted many years longer than is found in reference material.

The pattern I'm finding is solid. I've also found and confirmed large contracts of Colts during the exact same timeframe. So the desire for pistols from these Express firms was HUGE and in large volumes. Everything that I am reading is "WAY LOW" on how many guns were supplied to these firms.

These Express Agents were involved in multiple supply contracts that amounted to thousands of guns. That's PISTOLS only! I have no idea how many rifles, shotguns, and hideouts they were purchasing?

Unfortunately, there are altered guns out there. Since the contracts were so large you can't go by serial number only. The markings for USX guns, like all Express guns, must follow the pattern seen in photo's attached and also "must" be part of a large shipment to a specific Distributor in order to be authenticated. Or in rare cases sent directly to the Express Company. So altering a gun in an attempt to turn it into an Express gun basically won't work with minimal research.

**** It still must letter to specific firms and in a large shipment with very specific and deep stamped markings that follow the known and recorded pattern for that serial number range during the contracts timeline! NO EXCEPTIONS without supporting evidence.

I still have not located the Purchasing Agent for U.S. Express firm but I'll find that bugger! It's only a matter of time. I know who the purchasing agents were for Wells Fargo, and American Express Co. and their documented and recorded methods and/or patterns in my data base were exactly the same. Always going through the same Distributors and in a steady contract volume over a period of many years.

They sure did like the New Departure. Can't blame them.

Murph

singleshot1891 · #10 08-10-2020, 07:03 PM

Here's a couple that I own. Have not lettered either, so any light you can shed is appreciated.

WB

BMur · #11 08-10-2020, 08:12 PM

Singleshot 1891,
Thanks kindly for posting those photos. That contract is a very exciting one for me personally because it's one of the easiest ones to research. Both of your guns should factory letter as marked on the Backstrap by the factory and sent to the Springfield office in the factory ledgers for the American Express Company Purchasing agent. This contract began in about 1892 and terminated in about 1905 with a continual supply to The American Express Co supply agent. Often the factory letter will come back as listing the Springfield office then followed by no address given?

Further in depth research revealed that the purchasing agent was in fact a Mr. C.E. Seaton representing the American Express Company. At the exact same time he was receiving Colt Lightnings from the Colt Factory with similar markings on the backstrap. (See photo) that contract is also a very easy one to research. Often both the Smith & Wesson 38 models 3 and later 4 top breaks were being subsequently shipped from the Springfield office to one of two Major Distributors.

That's where there is slight confusion? but actually not really when you are dealing with an agent? what they typically do is buy the guns and have them sent elsewhere. So they don't actually ever receive them. They show up as the purchaser but then have them sent to either Boston or Chicago but not always. That's why you will get conflicting information from the factory ledger. They never know where the Agent wants the guns sent, etc.

So from my research the East Coast distributor was assigned to William Reid & Sons in Boston,Mass. The second Distributor that keeps showing up in my research was Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett in Chicago. This location also had a major office for American Express Co and also Wells Fargo & Co Express. That Major Distributing firm in Chicago played a HUGE role also with the earlier Schofields. They received well over 1000 of those examples and the expedited stamping found on the Schofields is only one small supporting piece of evidence of the volume of guns needed to tame the out of control Wild West.

There were actually several contracts in the later 1880's that pre-date this one that involved the Major Distributor Hartley and Graham in New York after the Schofield contract was terminated in the early to mid 1880's. They were also a major player in Distributing the Express guns. See last photo for just one example of a Distributor marked Smith & Wesson 38 Model 3 TB.

You can clearly see the markings are more fancy but similar to yours. This is a much earlier contract but often claimed as being part of the later contract. It was not!

Also they now were including a different method of marking a Property number after the Property stamp. Prior to this method being established most of the firms were basically copying the serial number as the property number. Some firms changed to this new method about 1889ish. Some did not. In fact the only 3 that are proven as using this later method are the Adams Express Co, American Express Co, and Wells Fargo & Co Express. Pacific Express never changed their method as far as my research takes me. Also U.S. Express seemed to follow both methods and was slow to change but they really liked the Smith & Wesson 38 New Departure so you can't call them all bad?

So, This property number is proven to represent the exact number in the contract sequence both as produced and corresponds to the serial number increase and date of production.

So the earliest gun would have property number 1 after the AM. EX. CO. and the latest gun or last gun in that specific contract would be in the 1800-2000 number range depending on which contract we are talking about. There were several that adds up to literally thousands of guns.

This variation is probably the most desirable Smith & Wesson Express guns in 38 caliber because they "WILL" letter as marked by Smith & Wesson. So faking them is literally impossible. I would strongly recommend that you letter them for increased value sake. Very historic examples...Thanks again for posting.

Murph

singleshot1891 · #12 08-11-2020, 11:18 PM

Thanks, BMur. Awesome information.

WB

Books · #13 08-12-2020, 12:25 PM

I also have a 2nd model New Departure with Great Northern Railway markings. It was shipped in April of 1889 to Hartley, Stalckhaver & Fay.

Books

BMur · #14 08-12-2020, 01:47 PM

Books,
That's a great set you have there. Talk about a rare set up. That Railroad was established in 1889.( see photo's). So the gun dates to the year the line was started. However, if you read into it? There were lines that were combined to create the Great Northern. So, lots of early history along the Canadian border. It's very interesting that the gun has a longer barrel. I've actually never seen a top break side arm with a longer barrel issued to a Railway Guard. So that is also unique.

I haven't spent much time researching the Railway guns. Most surviving guns show up as post 1918 with the Railway Express Agency. So, the earlier Railway guns are not common. Even though my research has proven that thousands of Express guns were issued? They still are "NOT" common out there.
So many of them were destroyed at various times. They talk about California? but the East Coast, New York Area? was known for towing and dumping barge loads of guns into the ocean at different times throughout history. Lots of those were express guns. Often coinciding with years of gun violence from the Mob-Era of the 20's-30's and/or post War when folks blame the gun for all the human generated violence.

Most of my research is on the "Express" guns but your set is definitely very historic and an early set for the Great Northern.

Pure guess on my part but likely for guarding payroll, and valuable bulk shipments since the Great Northern was mostly a steel and grain shipping outfit. The minty condition of the holster and gun are strong evidence of a Great and comfortable career life for whomever carried the side arm.

As far as the Distributor? I have no information on that one. Very interesting.

Murph