Does any one have any knowledge of the First Model .38 Single Action aka "Baby Russian" being used in LE or Military?

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SWCA 3417 HF 642 NRA-TC

One of the earliest organized police department uses of S&W was the Baby Russian used in a standardized way by the Baltimore Police. In my opinion second only in significance to the Nashville Police use of the First Model American.

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Thanks, crossv

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SWCA 3417 HF 642 NRA-TC

That’s an interesting angle.

Just thinking out loud here;

Let’s go after what we know first about that time in history?

The US Army/ Cavalry were purchasing thousands of 45 caliber Single action Army 45’s and S&W 45 Schofields during the singular year or two the 38 cf Baby Russian was produced. 1876-1877. So I don’t think they would be interested in this 38 cal model.

However, the US Navy ( GO NAVY!) on the other hand in 1876 was in the middle of a contract with Colt to convert the old cap & ball 51 Navy revolvers to .38 cf by the thousands!

So did the Navy have interest in this .38 cf auto eject state of the art Smith & Wesson pistol? They might have!
I’ve studied this subject in depth before and found other researchers/authors located military records that prove the Navy ordinance Dept not only preferred the .38 caliber at that time in history but they would Also order small batches of various makes and models from different gun makers for test subjects.

These tests batches would be put through rigorous trials first before the Navy Dept would except them as viable for military service.
So they may have ordered say 25 Baby Russians for trial but I have never read nor heard of the Navy adopting this gun for Military service in any volume. What happens to trial guns? Some are kept with ordinance and issued where applicable. ( Talk about rare?) Some are often returned to the factory for one reason or another. I’ll have to look through my USN test gun notes and get back to you.

Now, foreign military? I haven’t a clue. Most of the time even foreign military would order directly From the factory. So if the Baby Russian was ever ordered by the military? The factory ledgers should document it.

***** Oh, and Crossy,
We aren’t playing second fiddle to the Nashville Police. Granted, they did order guns before the Baltimore PD? But I don’t think 35 guns even compares to the 700-800 ordered by Baltimore PD!

Murph

The Balto Police Baby Russian did serve in a large department for a substantial time - 1876 to about 1916 I think. And then I see on the Baltimore Police museum website that the Third model .38 Single Action was apparently used from 1917 to 1924.

But the Nashville Police was at least 5 years earlier and was a carefully thought out special order and was a caliber that would be competitive for police use even today. Their rarity only adds to their appeal today,

We added the example from Dr John Hall's collection recently and as you can see the marking is quite different. Unfortunately the majority of Balto Police examples found today have the marking ground off. Murph, I think you may have done the most study of various markings and probably Books has done some as well. What is the conclusion? Were they marked by the distributors (mostly Trimble & Kliebacher and some to MW Robinson) or by the department?

Looking this up brings memories of my Dad, John Wilson and John Hall who were rabid pals at the beginning of SWCA. Hall is the taller one.

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Quite a bit on this topic in old posts on this site.
EX: Baltimore Police “ Baby Russian” SA Model 1

Hey Crossv,

Just teasing you. The Nashville Guns are extremely rare and I’ve seen the auctions hitting close to 20k so.

Oh, the Baltimore PD Baby Russian Research is very solid. The Historical website you mentioned is filled with old research material from a Sargent that retired years ago. He probably is no longer with us if you do the math. The new historians are more focused on Police culture than Firearm history and did not respond to my inquiries except to pass the buck. They basically don’t know.


The vast majority of the information I located was via the library of Congress. Quite extensive police documents and photos are found within.

Anyway, 3 large orders placed by the known and proven Major Distributor that supplied the BPD. Kimble & Kliebacher and those shipments are documented. They initially replaced older cap & ball Colts.

However, the Railroad Riots that make today’s riots look like a picnic? People back then were working 12 hour shifts and still living in poverty! No comparison to today’s behavior.
These railroad riots were the absolute reason for the large orders placed. The guns were part of a contract so the Distributor was contracted to engrave the guns for the BPD in bulk.

Too much info to post but I was not able to confirm any BPD Guns came from Robinson.

Murph

Organized police forces are, in general, under-researched historically. That said, I'm not surprised that historians in that field are more focused on culture than on the guns. That's going to tell a much more complete story about the evolution of police departments, and their effect on American culture as a whole. The guns were just tools of the trade; interesting to us because we have intrinsic interest in firearms, but probably only relevant at the micro-history level.

As an aside: in my thesis research, it became obvious that municipal police departments rose because there was a need to protect the large businesses that capitalists had invested so much money in. The railroads had a somewhat different approach with their own deputized railroad police. Again, it's an interesting facet of our history that hasn't been research and written about nearly enough.

Out of curiosity, when were these orders placed for the Baltimore Police Department? I'm thumbing through my copy of David Stowell's excellent book "The Great Strikes of 1877," and it appears that the national strikes ran from July to September of 1877. In Baltimore they were in the latter half of July, with about one week of really heavy violence. I'd be curious to know if the Baby Russian orders were in anticipation of the conflict, during the conflict, or as an after-the-fact response to it,

Mike

I can’t comment in detail since I’m away from that data. I have data stored at two locations. This happens a lot. I’m always at the wrong location when a relevant question is asked. One of these days I will compile the information but likely not since it would take months and I’m only getting older. I like computer based information (data base) for convenience but there is nothing like hard copy files that I laminate after researching. That includes hand written notes. They don’t age, rot, or fade. Nor do they crash like computer files. The bad part is that they take up a lot of space, are heavy, and bulky. So two locations became apparent years ago for me. I don’t like to comment based on memory alone since the old noggin isn’t what it use to be. I posted this information before on a previous thread???

Anyway, the information is a detailed timeline that includes documented/ recorded comments from police officers at that time regarding the performance of the “ New 38 caliber Revolvers” during the riots and subsequent large orders of same that initially began with a 50 gun order if memory serves “ Just Prior” to a major riot in downtown Baltimore, the documented performance of the “ New 38 Revolvers”, followed by a 550 gun order and I can’t remember the last order but about 100-200 guns. Totaling between 700-800 guns. Cross referencing the total amount of active duty police and reserve police, including night shift, resulting in roughly accounting for the majority of guns ordered. Etc. The initial 50 gun order pre-dated the Riots in Baltimore by a few months and represents the replacing of older cap & ball Colt revolvers. The riots were nation wide as you know but the data recorded in the old police files is amazing and thick with photos Of police officers and recorded events. Most of the photos are post 1880, however the documents date back to the 1860’s.

This is not the only time in history service revolvers were ordered in bulk due to riots etc. Or replacement of obsolete side arms due to a significant event that justified doing so. If you’ve read about the riots then you know how horrible they were. Cross referencing the Riots as the Root cause of the large 38 Baby Russian orders was from my research! Typical Documented squabbling from city officials “ Prior” to the riots about cost and city budget, then by some miracle? They justify ordering 600+ more guns during and after the riots “ in Baltimore” it’s a no brainer.

Murph

Oh, I wasn't doubting the connection there ... seems obvious enough. What I was curious about was whether the guns were ordered in anticipation of the conflict, during the conflict itself, or in the aftermath (when they realized, perhaps, that the cap-and-ball pistols weren't sufficient). And from what you wrote, it sounds like there were multiple orders across this time period.

Labor unrest during this era is a fascinating topic unto itself. It's the local progression of capitalists and large enterprises looking to extract more profits from their workforces. I've spent more time on the Homestead Steel strike in Pittsburgh than I have on the railroad protests, but it's all very interesting.

Mike

I agree Mike,

You read about how horrible hard working people were treated back then and here I am retired with a pension? Very fortunate times we live in that’s for sure. I definitely earned my retirement but those folks worked long hours and got poverty wages! It’s no wonder those riots were as bad as they were.

I’ll post that timeline info when I get home.

Murph

I looked through my material on Military service revolvers and as suspected the Navy did test Smith & Wesson revolvers during the period the Baby Russians were introduced. However, none were adopted because the Navy already had large quantities of .38 Colt Conversions and were satisfied with the design and cost. It was a close one though because they really liked the ejector system of the Smith & Wesson revolver:

1) February 1873 U.S. Navy Admiral Case sent a letter to Smith & Wesson, Remington, and Colt, requesting they send him a copy of their latest cartridge revolvers for possible U.S. Navy use. Obviously for comparison.

Smith & Wesson sent a 44 Russian model for the test. The Navy liked it and initially favored it over the Colt Army and Remington 44cf conversion. The auto extraction feature impressed those who operated the revolver during the test. Also, the Smith & Wesson was actually cheaper than the Colt and Remington. They fired 700 rounds from the Smith & Wesson without a glitch. So, the U.S. Navy came very close to ordering the 44 Russian for Military use but a Captain W. N. Jeffers Chief of the Bureau decided to do a price check on "converting" the old 51 Navy pistols to centerfire cartridge.

So, it was only due to cost that the U.S. Navy adopted the .38 centerfire conversions from Colt. The Navy definitely favored the ejector system on the 44 Smith & Wesson but it was argued by officers in the Bureau that the system was not that important and decided to save money instead. I have read about the Post Civil War Navy and it was on a very tight budget at that time until the 1890's when the foreign battleships (dreadnoughts became a real issue).

The next event was in 1886 when the Navy sent a letter to Smith & Wesson to send a .38 centerfire revolver for testing.

Smith & Wesson sent a double action with 4" barrel and a price per revolver for a potential order of 580 pistols. Plus what is interesting is that Smith & Wesson offered barrel lengths of 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6", and 8"...... That is in 1886!

Merwin and Hulbert was also invited to this competition as well as Colt, and Remington.

Looks like Colt sent the U.S. Navy spare parts for their existing somewhat aged conversions and seems to have milked them until the 1889 Navy model swingout was in production. So, lots of politics and likely "connections" in the senior staff!

Murph

Undoubtedly the only time that a bad decision was made to save a few pennies. :-)

Unquestionably. And I'm not sure that much has changed in the ensuing 130 years.

Thanks for sharing this. Interesting stuff indeed.

Mike

See Mike,
This is why I don't like referring to my research without my notes in hand. I never get it right from memory.

The Baltimore Police initially had, from my research?

200 Colt Pocket 49's. (31 cap & ball) revolvers ordered in 1857
50 Colt Pocket 49's. (.31 cap & ball) additional revolvers ordered in 1861
50 51 Colt Navy revolvers (.36 cap & ball) Also ordered in 1861
50 61 Colt Navy revolvers (.36 cap & ball) Also ordered in 1861

*** This information is confirmed from a close friend and author who has copies of Colt Factory ledgers during that time frame. I asked him to perform a search for me and he located these orders.

++++ BABY RUSSIAN ++++

++ July 30, 1876 a Shipment of 200 Baby Russian revolvers were sent from the factory to Trimble & Kleibacker & Co. to replace the aged Pocket 49's in the BPD.
*** Retired Sargent Green confirmed this order also.

This was almost a year "before" the Railroad riots.

Early July,1877 a "HUGE" Riot took place in downtown Baltimore (Railroad workers mostly) and is very well documented in the Police archives. Also several newspaper accounts actually draw the picture of the riot.

Deputy Marshall Jacob Fry along with near 50 Police officers armed with the "NEW 38 CAL Revolvers" were able to "stand off" thousands of rioters with just the BABY RUSSIANS. I posted this story before. It's amazing.

This "Singular event" stimulated the immediate somewhat emergency order of 600 additional guns placed by the BPD through Trimble & Kliebacker & Co.

These were actually sent by Smith & Wesson in two separate shipments. The first was 50 guns less than a week after this huge riot in which the revolver proved invaluable in crowd control. Then 10 days later another 550 guns were shipped. This is all documented both in the Smith & Wesson archives and the BPD archives.

It's very historic in my opinion and proof positive that the auto ejection system of the Baby Russian center fire .38 Pocket revolver provided the Police the ability to basically "keep shooting" without stopping. Volley after Volley with 50 Police officers standing side by side quickly reloading. They were also instructed to "Aim Low" by the Marshall in charge.

NOTE: I personally tested this and you can reload a Baby Russian with original Black powder rounds "after discharging" in less than 10 seconds without much effort. With practice you might make 5 seconds. I think that would stop any crowd. Don't you? I can picture it.

Putting these events together was very satisfying research. That's why I'm addicted.

So, basically the total is 800 proven guns ordered. All guns ordered through Trimble and Kliebacher & Co. I found no evidence that Robinson was involved.

I have a ton more research notes. This is just skimming the surface.

NOTE: Also it's documented that the worst of the riots continued for 45 days, so into late August of 1877. So ALL of the BABY Russians ordered were directly involved and likely in the hands of Police officers during the Riots. It's also very likely that the bulk order of 550 guns was what put an end to the riots!!! IN fact, it was!


Murph

Interesting research, Murph.

The railroad strikes weren't just in Baltimore; they took place in many other American cities in and around that time. And it's worth noting that it wasn't just the Baltimore police that handled this situation; the 5th and 6th Regiments of the Maryland National Guard were also mustered to handle the disorder. The Baltimore Police were indeed involved, though, and I tend to agree with you that many, if not most of the Baby Russians shipped during this time probably saw action.

And, the strikers did achieve some labor reforms.

Mike

One of the 50 shipped on 20 July 1877.

Books

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The Army tested 100 6" 38 Safety Hammerless.

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