.38 S&W safety hammerless 4th model questions

Spajohn · #1 09-09-2020, 10:51 PM

I've recently pulled out this gun that was given to me in the '70's, it was called a 'belly gun' by the owner. Don't know if that was how it was carried or where it was supposed to be aimed. SN#180XXX
The hand spring is broken (see pic) and other than a somewhat pitted barrel is in pretty decent shape. The barrel had been shortened to 2-1/2" with a replacement front sight.
I want to attempt to replace the hand spring, and wondered how the heck the trigger guard comes off. I haven't taken the trigger out yet, and would like to know how it is disassembled before I start.
If anyone has a hand spring or even better a hand with the spring attached, I would be interested. I found hand springs at Jack First for six bucks which ain't bad, but $11 to ship the tiny thing made me balk 'cause I'm cheap that way.
Other than that, any comments on the stock would be appreciated; it's a great tight fit to the gun and I like it better than standard grips. It has 45147 scratched (not stamped) into each half, have no idea what that may mean, perhaps a SN from an earlier model.
This is my first post since joining the forum, hope it comes out well, and thanks for any wisdom you can impart...
JohnP

first-model · #2 09-10-2020, 12:37 AM

Your "belly gun" is a Smith & Wesson .38 Safety Hammerless, 4th Model. It probably shipped from the factory in 1906 or 1907, but a factory letter is the only way to tell for sure since these guns didn't always ship in order of serial number.

As you've noted, the barrel has been cut down. The gun has also been reblued; the rounded edges on the side plate are evidence of that.

I think the hand spring on these is just a flat spring with a little kink in it for the pin that holds it in place, right? Not sure what it would take to make one, but if it was me I'd just order one. I've sent hours trying to get a homemade spring "just so," and I usually end up throwing it out and ordering a new one. That said, I see parts for these pop up on eBay, so you may get lucky and find one for cheaper.

The grips are really unusual, and they look to be well fit to this gun. I'll be curious to hear what the experts opine on them.

Mike

Speedo2 · #3 09-10-2020, 07:50 AM

Those grips are sweet; they look like Ropers for a lemon squeezer. If so, they are probably worth more than the gun itself. Looking forward to learning more about them too. -S2

first-model · #4 09-10-2020, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedo2

Those grips are sweet; they look like Ropers for a lemon squeezer. If so, they are probably worth more than the gun itself. Looking forward to learning more about them too. -S2

I'm glad you said it! I was thinking "Roper" too, but I'm not a student of Roper's grips and didn't want to make a silly suggestion. But yes, that was the very first thing I thought of too.

Mike

Spajohn · #5 09-10-2020, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by first-model

Your "belly gun" is a Smith & Wesson .38 Safety Hammerless, 4th Model. It probably shipped from the factory in 1906 or 1907, but a factory letter is the only way to tell for sure since these guns didn't always ship in order of serial number.

As you've noted, the barrel has been cut down. The gun has also been reblued; the rounded edges on the side plate are evidence of that.

I think the hand spring on these is just a flat spring with a little kink in it for the pin that holds it in place, right? Not sure what it would take to make one, but if it was me I'd just order one. I've sent hours trying to get a homemade spring "just so," and I usually end up throwing it out and ordering a new one. That said, I see parts for these pop up on eBay, so you may get lucky and find one for cheaper.

The grips are really unusual, and they look to be well fit to this gun. I'll be curious to hear what the experts opine on them.

Mike

Hey Mike--
Thanks for the comeback, your details on the gun data agrees with my research, it's good to have it confirmed.
You're right about the hand spring, I found the broken piece inside the gun, it's just a little curved spring with a curl on the end that fits into the hand and presses against the sear. It snapped off just beyond where it is attached to the hand.
I was also wondering how it is attached to the hand. I suspect that it may just be compressed in the slot in the hand, although the remains in the hand look silver soldered. If this is the case, I fear that this may take the temper out of the spring, so I dunno about this. Anybody got a clue?

Still trying to figure out how the trigger guard comes off, it's a mystery to me.
JohnP

Spajohn · #6 09-10-2020, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedo2

Those grips are sweet; they look like Ropers for a lemon squeezer. If so, they are probably worth more than the gun itself. Looking forward to learning more about them too. -S2

Speedo2--
I was also thinking that the grips were probably worth more than the gun myself. Obviously made for this gun, even has a little cutout for the strain screw for the mainspring, and very nicely checkered.
JohnP

Speedo2 · #7 09-10-2020, 04:45 PM

Spajohn, thanks for the added photo of the grip panel. I'm no expert on Ropers, but those rectangular cuts that flank the etched number are, I'm pretty sure, are one of the defining characteristics of Ropers. Hopefully one of our grip gurus will be along to chime in.

Regarding removal of the trigger guard, I believe that the guard is removed by squeezing it from front to back and pulling it down. Again, I'm no expert on these geezer guns and I've never done it myself and I'm going by memory of previous discussions on these things, but that is what I recall. Again, hopefully one of the lemon squeezer experts will be along shortly. -S2

first-model · #8 09-10-2020, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spajohn

I was also wondering how it is attached to the hand.

It has been a bit since I've had one of these guns taken apart, but my recollection is that the hand spring doesn't attach to the hand. The hand should have two pins in it; one that it pivots on, and another that is off center. The hand spring pushes against that off-center pin, and that is what rotates the hand.

The hand spring is held in place in the hammer by a separate pin.

At least, that's how I remember it. :-)

Mike

mmaher94087 · #9 09-10-2020, 08:01 PM

The trigger guard IS a spring. It needs to be compressed and some use a hammer handle (wood) between the grip frame and the guard and twist it 90* to pop out the guard. The handspring is a flat (leaf) spring with a rounded end that is held by the hand.

merl67 · #10 09-10-2020, 10:05 PM

I had one apart a number of years ago swore never again, come to think of it there was a lot of swearing going on that day....The grips are spectacular if they are Ropers, and I suspect they are it would be the first I've seen for a topbreak.

Continental Op · #11 09-10-2020, 11:16 PM

I love those grips. They look very ergonomic and seem to open up the grip angle some.

Club Gun Fan · #12 09-11-2020, 08:53 AM

Those are Ropers. I have a pair.

glowe · #13 09-11-2020, 09:02 AM

Welcome to the Forum. The trigger guard is most easily removed by pushing the rear of the guard forward and pull down when the tab is free from the frame. Strong hands can usually accomplish that task, but cutting a piece of wood to tightly fit between the trigger guard and the frame is another way, similar to above comments. I tighten the wood in a vise and place the gun on it. Hold it solidly and push the gun from the front until the rear of the guard comes out of the frame. Do not pull the trigger guard off, but rather lower the rear and look carefully at the location and orientation of the V trigger spring before removing. This spring can be a real issue and when reinstalling, one will usually have to try several times before the spring properly rests on the front trigger tab. Don't give up and it will eventually work.

Spajohn · #14 09-11-2020, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Welcome to the Forum. The trigger guard is most easily removed by pushing the rear of the guard forward and pull down when the tab is free from the frame. Strong hands can usually accomplish that task, but cutting a piece of wood to tightly fit between the trigger guard and the frame is another way, similar to above comments. I tighten the wood in a vise and place the gun on it. Hold it solidly and push the gun from the front until the rear of the guard comes out of the frame. Do not pull the trigger guard off, but rather lower the rear and look carefully at the location and orientation of the V trigger spring before removing. This spring can be a real issue and when reinstalling, one will usually have to try several times before the spring properly rests on the front trigger tab. Don't give up and it will eventually work.

Gary--
Thanks for the detailed instruction, it's exactly what I needed.
Acting on Speedo2 and Mike's insights, I compressed it slightly with a well padded set of channel locks, worked great.
That's as far as I went, and your caution about the V trigger spring is well taken and very well timed. At this point I'm going to acquire a hand spring before proceeding.
Do you have any comment on how the spring attaches to the slot in the hand? It's either compressed or ??.
Thanks again,
JohnP

glowe · #15 09-11-2020, 05:13 PM

I believe there is a very small pin that holds the spring in place, but with so many designs, it is hard to be sure without taking one apart and looking at it. There should be some of the spring left attached to the hand and that should give you an idea on how the new spring is installed. If not, just ask questions here. Good luck.

mikerjf · #16 09-11-2020, 05:51 PM

Compare your right grip to this picture... the only difference I see is the "sharpness" of the top horizontal curve. Awesome!

Spajohn · #17 09-11-2020, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikerjf

Compare your right grip to this picture... the only difference I see is the "sharpness" of the top horizontal curve. Awesome!

Mike--
I believe that these grips came in right and left hand offerings, mine is right hand with a nice place for a thumb.
It looks like those might be left hand, which I understand are pretty rare.
JohnP

cgt4570 · #18 09-11-2020, 09:38 PM

I have a .38 Single Action, 3rd Model that came to me with a very similar drift adjustable rear sight leaf installed in the barrel latch. It was turned into a 'target' model back in the day. I just happened to have a correct factory target latch I installed.
Very nice! The target style rear sight will really help. The rounded factory non-target sight valley in the standard barrel latch is almost impossible to see.

Spajohn · #19 09-11-2020, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedo2

Spajohn, thanks for the added photo of the grip panel. I'm no expert on Ropers, but those rectangular cuts that flank the etched number are, I'm pretty sure, are one of the defining characteristics of Ropers. Hopefully one of our grip gurus will be along to chime in.

Regarding removal of the trigger guard, I believe that the guard is removed by squeezing it from front to back and pulling it down. Again, I'm no expert on these geezer guns and I've never done it myself and I'm going by memory of previous discussions on these things, but that is what I recall. Again, hopefully one of the lemon squeezer experts will be along shortly. -S2

Speedo2--
The trigger guard came loose with a little squeezing; when pondering how it disassembled that thought crossed my mind, but I didn't want to screw anything up.
I left it at that 'cause I didn't want the trigger spring to go sproing, and glowe confirmed paying attention to its orientation and how fiddly it is to get back together. I'm going to wait until I get a hand spring before I continue.
I have found out that these are Roper grips, and I like the way that they comfortably round out the butt of the gun...those guys that made them sure knew what they were doing, real craftsmen.
More background here:
newindex).
Since you guys like these grips as much as I do, here's some more images for your amusement. Thanks for all the replies on this, you guys are great!
JohnP

Spajohn · #20 09-11-2020, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I believe there is a very small pin that holds the spring in place, but with so many designs, it is hard to be sure without taking one apart and looking at it. There should be some of the spring left attached to the hand and that should give you an idea on how the new spring is installed. If not, just ask questions here. Good luck.

glowe--
Looking behind the side plate there is a remnant of the hand spring left in the hand, the rest was broken off and was still inside the gun. Here is a pic of some handsprings from Jack's, and a link to the hand 'cause I can't copy it in the format that this forum accepts:
file:///C:/Users/User/Pictures/Guns/S&W%20.38%20Safety%20Hammerless/IMG_4465_1024x1024.webp

or here, it should be the first picture

S&W Safety Hammerless .38 hand #274-33 - Google Search

Anyhow, if you look at the two you can see where the spring fits into the hand, and wondered how it's held. I understand where it goes, and I'm guessing that the curly end of the spring is compressed or peened (squeezed) in the slot in the hand. Everything else from the safety and the trigger guard needs to be squeezed on this lemon squeezer...
JohnP

glowe · #21 09-12-2020, 08:58 AM

Thanks for the image of the spring, so this is the model without a retaining pin, but rather a hole and slot in which the curly part of the spring is pushed into the hole. I don't believe it is a press fit, but just is a snug fit, since the frame holds the spring in place.

mmaher94087 · #22 09-12-2020, 11:57 AM

X2 on Gary's photo and explanation. Lineup the curl and tap it home.

Spajohn · #23 09-12-2020, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Thanks for the image of the spring, so this is the model without a retaining pin, but rather a hole and slot in which the curly part of the spring is pushed into the hole. I don't believe it is a press fit, but just is a snug fit, since the frame holds the spring in place.

That 's exactly what I have--although the spring part that's broken off and remains in the hand seems to be firmly attached, I can't pick it out, it looks pretty rough, probably a previous attempt at a fix. I'll have at it better when the hand's out of the gun.
I think that I've just located a hand with a spring attached, we'll see how that works out. I'll order another spring just to mess with old hand.
Thanks again for your excellent insights.
JohnP

mmaher94087 · #24 09-12-2020, 12:43 PM

"I can't pick it out..". It's a spring; drift it out with a punch. Please let us know of the outcome.

glowe · #25 09-15-2020, 09:01 AM

. . . and don't forget that the hand affects the timing of the revolver. The factory always hand fitted the hand or else it could push the cylinder beyond the stop or bring it up short. If the hand you found is used, it has already been fitted to another gun, so it might not work right in your revolver. Use the original hand and just replace the spring to avoid potential fit problems.

Spajohn · #26 09-15-2020, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

. . . and don't forget that the hand affects the timing of the revolver. The factory always hand fitted the hand or else it could push the cylinder beyond the stop or bring it up short. If the hand you found is used, it has already been fitted to another gun, so it might not work right in your revolver. Use the original hand and just replace the spring to avoid potential fit problems.

Hey, thanks for that insight--I just found a hand and a spring and they're on the way to me now. If the hand doesn't work out, at least I'll have the spring to fit to the original hand.
JohnP

Spajohn · #27 09-26-2020, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

"I can't pick it out..". It's a spring; drift it out with a punch. Please let us know of the outcome.

OK, I finally got the hand/spring assy delivered yesterday and spent some quality time with my gun. I was hoping that the trigger/hand/sear assembly would come out of the bottom for easy hand replacement, but no luck there.
My aim at this point was to study everything and disassemble no more than necessary, hoping I wouldn't take apart more than I could chew.
The whole mechanism is pretty clever, and after taking off the main spring, hammer, and a couple of other pieces I was able to fit the hand/spring assembly; it looked pretty much the same as the original, although someone had removed some metal under the 'finger' probably to make it reach further towards the cylinder.
Anyhow, reassembly was pretty easy, getting the trigger guard back was fiddly, but now it locks up nice and tight and clicks the cylinder into place just before the hammer comes down, so all is good.
I have some old S&W .38 smokeless cartridges in an old box that I don't want to use (probably more collector value) and a box of reloads that I must have picked up at a gun show 30 years ago. We'll see what happens next...
Thanks to all you great folk for the info, this forum is a great resource.
JohnP

gmborkovic · #28 09-26-2020, 03:13 PM

"fiddly", new word for me. I like it. thanks. congrats on your gun.