Are all S&Ws built pre 1899 considered antiques by the ATF, and not under their jurisdiction unless they have been altered to accept modern loads? Also, replicas thereof under the same circumstances?

Welcome to the Forum. The BATFE recognizes any S&W frame manufactured and serial number stamped before 1899 as an antique with no exceptions. Below is the known models and serial number cut-offs for antique status.

S&W Single Action (SA) .32 and .38 top break revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W Spur Trigger: With the exception of one rare S&W model, production of single-action spur trigger revolver frames had essentially stopped by 1892. So just about all of these are antique.)
S&W Double Action (DA) .32 top break revolvers with hammer (serial # below 209,301)
S&W DA .32 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 91,400)
S&W DA .38 top break revolvers with hammer (serial # below 382,022)
S&W DA .38 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 119,900)
S&W .45 Schofield revolvers, all are pre-1899 (Note: Most of the Schofields currently on the market are modern replicas)
S&W DA First Model revolver, all are pre-1899
S&W DA "Frontier" revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W DA "Favorite" revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W Model 1891, all are pre-1899
S&W 1st Model hand ejector (.32s only), all are pre-1899

There is correspondence from 1972 between Roy Jinks and the BATF that documented the above information as submitted by Roy, who was the company Historian at that time. Acceptance letter was issued by the BATF accepting the antiquity status of listed S&Ws.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

If the Frame was made prior to 1899 - as with all 'New Model 3' Revolvers, even though they were being assembled and completed who knows when, and sold up in to the early 'teens...yes.

All Model 3 and New Model 3 Revolvers are considered 'Antiques' under the pre 1899 criteria.

Other smaller Frame, Break Top S & Ws - things are not as well defined for this, and or one may not have any easy way to show when the Frame was made, or when the Revolver as a whole was assembled, even if one can find when it shipped.

Emulations/imitations of some of the more or less Model 3s or New Model 3 offerings made by Uberti or Beretta or whom-ever else, are considered to be Modern Arms and are not in the same category as pre-1899 Antiques.

What you are attempting to quote is the Federal guideline for the definition of an antique firearm?
Some States do not follow this basic guideline and all States are allowed to modify the definition or can often be silent regarding antiques.
The NRA website provides some details of each States firearm laws but it is best that you look up your own States guidelines for their specific gun laws. It’s amazing the differences you will find from one State to the next!
This is also applicable if you decide to attend an out of state show. You should be familiar with their laws as well prior to attending that show.
Best to avoid any firearm violations from one State to another. It’s actually a mess if you want my opinion.
One country we live in yet if you cross a State line you can go from a normal law abiding citizen to an instant criminal! It’s stupid!
Especially when we are talking about antiques manufactured over 121 years ago!!!


Murph

Keep in mind that a couple states have their own more strict laws.
Some consider any firearm that will accept a metallic cartridge to be 'modern', regardless of manufacture date.

Also, BATFE statute says that milsupr pre-99 guns that have been modified (i.e. sporterized stocks, shortened barrels, etc.) are no longer considered exempt antique non-firearms. This is a very gray area, though because it doesn't go into specifics about what altered or modified actually means.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

This is also a problem with C&R firearms.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Replicas made after 1898 are NOT considered Antiques if they fire fixed ammo (cartridges).


ANY firearm manufactured before 1 January, 1899 is considered an Antique by BATFE.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

The BATFE standards for antiques and curios & relics ONLY applies in those US. states & jurisdictions that recognize the BATFE stands. Calif., for example, considers anthing the BATFE approves applies only to the Moon. Ed

I will fight them to my last breath Ed.

For being such a so called anti-gun State? Guns are selling like crazy right now. Yes! In California! 30 day backlog on ordering new guns and prices have Tripled here for used guns! Never seen anything like it.

I don’t know if you’re following it Ed.
But right now we are kicking xxx and rolling back a lot of those BS laws as unconstitutional and the lefty 9th circuit Court is finally backing it.

Murph

I moved from Southern California to Kansas 3 years ago, but, while in So Cal, any 'C & R' Hand Guns or pre WWII Commercial Long Arms which I won on Gunbroker, merely shipped to my local friendly dealer FFL for transfer to me.

'Antique' Hand Guns may have had to go through my local friendly dealer FFL, I can not recall now, and I do not remember actually getting any pre 1899 Hand Guns while in So Cal, but Cap & Ball originals or reproductions, shipped straight to me.

California's "Roster" did not apply to C & R or 'Antique' or any Muzzle Loading Arms new or old - only to new or recently made used Metallic Cartridge Hand Guns ( I forget their modern Long Arms restrictions, but I know they had a few! ), so, it had no effect on me at all.

C&Rs are useless in Calif. As noted above you have to go thru a CA FFL dealer for the transfer and smart CA FFLs are now charging close to a $100 for the privilege of using their FFl to get your gun. Ed

That applies only to C&R guns, not pre-1899 antiques. I believe the only exception to a gun manufactured prior to 1899 being classed as a BATFE antique, modified or not, involves fully automatic guns - and there were some. USPS's definition of antique handguns, concerning postal shipment of antique handguns, differs from the BATFE definition.

DWalt,

Would you please post the USPS definition of antique handguns,and how this affects shipping them. Thanks.

"USPS's definition of antique handguns, concerning postal shipment of antique handguns, differs from the BATFE definition."

Best regards

USPS does differ from the BATF regulations. It appears that the USPS took the BATF regs and edited them to fit their agenda rather than copy them for their use.

Attached Files

USPS Regulations for Antique Guns.pdf (275.6 KB, 33 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

As far as I gather, as far as USPS's rules or guidelines or what-ever they are, one is not supposed to ship any Metallic Cartridge Hand Guns, no matter how old they are, unless one is a dealer FFL.

That is the long and short of it.

The erstwhile 1898 mark which has meaning to the B of A T F and now also E, has no such meaning to the USPS.

I have a S&W DA in .44 Russian, 4" barrel (ser#22198). Here is Canada, it must be pre 1898 to fall into the "antique" classification. Is there a site or a good chap here who can tell me the year of manufacture?

Attached Images

DSCN2239.jpg (90.6 KB, 15 views)

21378 was shipped in March 1890 and 22708 was shipped in September 1889. This is because S&W didn't ship in serial number order. The only way to know for sure when your gun shipped is to get an historian's letter of authenticity. All the frames of the .44 DA were made before 1899 and are considered antiques in the USA.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

It used to be easy to get your FFL in this state, you just filled out the paperwork, paid the fee and bingo your in business. From what I understand you must have a brick and mortar "store" to qualify. I do know a guy that is working on his old FFL which expires next year, he has an LLC and in home business....he doesn't know for sure whether he will be able to re-up when the time comes. Another gunsmith friend of mine was the guy that told me when he left the brick and mortar store as their gunsmith and moved his business home he lost his ability to carry his FFL.