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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 10-10-2020, 01:33 PM
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Default Very Early Production DA Perfected

A recent acquisition, for your review and comment. Serial # is 10XX, which I'm assuming puts this squarely in first year of production (1909). All parts appear to be matching that I could see (didn't and will not remove the side plate to see if it is marked on the inside), including cylinder, barrel, latch, grips, and underside of ejector star.

The last patent date on the barrel is Feb '06.

When I received this there was what appeared to be rust around the pins and thumb latch -- this turned out to be dried oil/grease and came right off with acetone. It's obviously been used (there are cartridge outlines on the recoil shield), but the bore looks brand new, and everything is nice and tight.
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File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_1.jpg (97.1 KB, 154 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_2.jpg (84.2 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_OPEN.jpg (108.3 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_PATENTS.jpg (74.0 KB, 106 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_RECOIL.jpg (61.7 KB, 107 views)
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Old 10-10-2020, 03:14 PM
gmborkovic gmborkovic is offline
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OOH! Nice Perfected. And those grips. Nice snag.
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Old 10-10-2020, 04:13 PM
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I love 38 Perfected revolvers, but I have to ask what do you think happened with the frame? It has been buffed and shows streaking, swirls, and uneven finish. It does not match the barrel and cylinder???

The double latching system proved to be a problem for some owners. If only the top latch is opened, one can bend the quill when trying to open, so remember to open both before opening the action.
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Old 10-10-2020, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
I love 38 Perfected revolvers, but I have to ask what do you think happened with the frame? It has been buffed and shows streaking, swirls, and uneven finish. It does not match the barrel and cylinder???
The frame definitely matches the rest of the gun else -- at least the SN on the butte does. But none of the normal telltale signs of refinishing are there, at least to my eyes -- except on the sideplate (which shows some pitting that may or may not be under the nickel -- the effected areas seem to be a different color in sunlight). And even there the sideplate seams appear to be perfect (no "trough" or gap that even a high-end refinish shows), and all edges are crisp. The interior of the frame and recoil has the correct brushed appearance. Comparing it side by side with my 1880's DA 3rd model, the finish seems nearly identical in terms of detail and crispness.

I've attached another photo of the frame.
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File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_3.jpg (156.1 KB, 63 views)
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Old 10-10-2020, 05:49 PM
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Gary, how can you tell from those pics? The pins are proud, the plate seam,
I can not see and the screw holes are not dished. The barrel address looks
correct. and those grips are really sharp. Match?
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:04 PM
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More pics...
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File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_HINGE.jpg (61.4 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_GRIP1.jpg (146.8 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_GRIP2.jpg (144.1 KB, 50 views)
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:11 PM
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At first I thought you had a really nice refinish, but the more I look at it I don't think it has been refinished, but a super nice original finish.
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmborkovic View Post
Gary, how can you tell from those pics? ?
I suppose it could be the lighting, but there is a definite difference in texture, color, and finish between the frame and barrel/cylinder in the images. The color almost looks like polished steel, or the frame was buffed after plating. Flat surfaces should not show swirls and unevenness on a factory plated revolver. Compare what we see with the 38 Perfected to a nice 32 nickel DA.
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File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_1.jpg (160.9 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_2.jpg (152.3 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg 1.jpg (95.7 KB, 38 views)
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:59 PM
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To Gary's defense; I also thought the frame had been refinished or buffed to excess in the first photos. However the photos in post 4 and 6 show an excellent original finish. It had to be the glare or reflection in the first photo that threw everything off. Nice snag.
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:03 PM
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One more pic with closeup, from different lighting and angle (and with different camera lens). Is it possible that the frame only was refinished at some point?

My understanding was that when a gun is renickled, it is first deplated, and that the surface must be prepped (at least buffed) before it is replated. -- i.e. that all the surfaces would show some evidence of buffing or other surface prep (e.g. the inside of the frame that normally has ground or machined appearance would be smoothed out or muted -- it isn't).

What I do know:
  • The frame (on the butt) and grips (at least one of them) are all stamped with the same serial as the barrel, latch, cylinder, and ejector star.
  • The frame is definitely nickel plated and not polished steel or "in the white"
  • Everything that should be blued or case colored, is.
  • The barrel and cylinder both have a couple of rust spots. There is no rust on the frame, but the side plate has some spots of pitting. The areas with finish damage seem to be a different color in sunlight, and may be in the white.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:31 PM
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All looks right in this image.

Previous images the Frame and also some of the Barrel assembly looked somewhat odd, and or looked "as if" some heavy handed buffing had been done.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaShakers View Post
One more pic with closeup, from different lighting and angle (and with different camera lens). Is it possible that the frame only was refinished at some point?

My understanding was that when a gun is renickled, it is first deplated, and that the surface must be prepped (at least buffed) before it is replated. -- i.e. that all the surfaces would show some evidence of buffing or other surface prep (e.g. the inside of the frame that normally has ground or machined appearance would be smoothed out or muted -- it isn't).

What I do know:
  • The frame (on the butt) and grips (at least one of them) are all stamped with the same serial as the barrel, latch, cylinder, and ejector star.
  • The frame is definitely nickel plated and not polished steel or "in the white"
  • Everything that should be blued or case colored, is.
  • The barrel and cylinder both have a couple of rust spots. There is no rust on the frame, but the side plate has some spots of pitting. The areas with finish damage seem to be a different color in sunlight, and may be in the white.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaShakers View Post
One more pic with closeup, from different lighting and angle (and with different camera lens). Is it possible that the frame only was refinished at some point?

My understanding was that when a gun is renickled, it is first deplated, and that the surface must be prepped (at least buffed) before it is replated. -- i.e. that all the surfaces would show some evidence of buffing or other surface prep (e.g. the inside of the frame that normally has ground or machined appearance would be smoothed out or muted -- it isn't).
It all depends on who does the re-finish.

Normally, Buffing would only be done to areas which show when all is assembled...pretty well no one ever Buffs areas which would be hidden when assembled...other than the Ends of the Cylinder.

Also, often enough, Guns got re-Nickeled over the existing Nickel, with no de-Nickeling having been done...

An 'as new' or close to it, Blue Revolver, can be perfectly Nickeled by merely de-Blueing and then Nickeling with no Buffing needed...other than maybe, a very light Buffing to the Nickel.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:52 PM
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Thanks (everyone!) for the feedback. I am somewhat of a novice when it comes to older guns, but have put a lot of effort into to trying to spot refinish jobs after seeing the shenanigans with monkeyed with Pythons discussed over on the Colt forum.

The dead giveaway on high-polish guns for me always seems to be the sideplate seams (and the seam where the yoke/crane fit together) with visible troughs -- you can spot this with close examination even on guns refinished by higher end outfits like Fords and Custom Shop Inc.

Photographing nickel guns seems to be difficult to get right as well (and I'm not much of a photographer in any event). FWIW, the "suspect' photos were taken outdoors in shade. The other photos were taken indoors under a flourescent desk lamp.
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:46 PM
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That is Beautiful !
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaShakers View Post
. . . The dead giveaway on high-polish guns for me always seems to be the sideplate seams (and the seam where the yoke/crane fit together) . . .
Again not reliable. While it is true that you can spot a bad buffing job around the sideplate seams, the very simple solution is to sand/buff with the frame with the sideplate secured by flat screws. Same with the front end of the yoke, install it and close against the frame before sanding/buffing. Even amateurs can do a near perfect job this way. It is a shame when you see bad buffing jobs happen to a vintage gun and makes me wonder how many bad gunsmiths are really out there??

As for your finish, the image in Post #5 seems to show a much better representation of the frame finish. It does bother me that your first images seem to show some type of swirls and unevenness in the surface of the frame while not showing the same appearance on the barrel and cylinder, and guess it will remain a mystery to me.
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
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Again not reliable. While it is true that you can spot a bad buffing job around the sideplate seams, the very simple solution is to sand/buff with the frame with the sideplate secured by flat screws. Same with the front end of the yoke, install it and close against the frame before sanding/buffing. Even amateurs can do a near perfect job this way. It is a shame when you see bad buffing jobs happen to a vintage gun and makes me wonder how many bad gunsmiths are really out there??

As for your finish, the image in Post #5 seems to show a much better representation of the frame finish. It does bother me that your first images seem to show some type of swirls and unevenness in the surface of the frame while not showing the same appearance on the barrel and cylinder, and guess it will remain a mystery to me.
One of the main reasons I'm posting here is to get opinions from the experts. This thread has been invaluable, and I appreciate your willingness to educate. It does make you wonder if it's possible to get it right why the better known shops don't go to the trouble (labor/expense I suppose).

I'm posting some more photos, this time taken in direct sunlight.
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File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_5.jpg (109.5 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_6.jpg (99.8 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_7.jpg (105.0 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_8.jpg (86.8 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg DA_PERFECTED_9.jpg (77.2 KB, 25 views)
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