Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-10-2020, 06:10 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 464
Liked 1,547 Times in 642 Posts
Default "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit

I just got this in the mail. Story from the seller is this 90 year old gentleman passed last year. He found this at the Estate sale in a storage room on a lower shelf.

I'm amazed at the condition but more so that it basically shouldn't exist...This is the earlier design kit with the instructions on the outer lid. Green box with Pumpkin Orange label but its for a 32-44 Target New Model 3? That doesn't make sense to me since the Target variation was introduced in 1887 the exact same year that the "Improved Kit" was cataloged by Smith & Wesson.... So, I'm thinking that it's a transitional kit. Check out the two molds? In 1887 it should be a peanut mold, two dies, longer box, etc. I've also never seen a target bullet in one of the earlier iron molds!

I believe that all the parts are original to this kit.

Has anyone seen one of these before?

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-f921f1f4-1fd9-470e-bc2a-ad584a0c6e34-jpg   "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-c3c9d273-6806-4d24-afd8-abfc3f4ccd65-jpg   "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-39d533c8-a06f-41ec-a07a-c61f619370eb-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 10-10-2020 at 06:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-10-2020, 06:36 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 813
Liked 5,422 Times in 2,564 Posts
Default

Wow, just wow. You win the Pulitzer, Oscar and Nobel prizes all rolled into one! I’m expecting a more detailed description and more pictures of course. Congratulations.

Froggie
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 10-11-2020, 01:35 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 464
Liked 1,547 Times in 642 Posts
Default Not Cataloged

Thanks Charlie,
This kit is the only one that I'm aware of that is not cataloged. Well, except for the very early 44 American/Russian brass tool from 1872 time frame? So it's a mystery that's for sure. I was hoping someone else had seen it or perhaps had one in their collection.

The more I look at this kit the more I'm scratching my head. I'm thinking also that this "Transitional" kit? introduced the ball mold to the reloading kits. I've never seen a ball mold for the Revolving Rifle kit (1873-1887) so this kit sort of proves that the Target New Model 3 actually introduced the ball or gallery bullet to these kits "Prior" to the peanut molds post 1886-1912.(End of production)

*** Another member posted a ball mold that he found on one of the iron molds...I attributed it to a Revolving Rifle mold since that kit was manufactured during iron mold time frame. I guess I was wrong. It must have come from one of these Target kits. I looked into the Revolving Rifle molds a little closer and found no kits with more than one mold...Only the conical and a single stage die to load only the conical bullet.


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 10-11-2020 at 02:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 10-11-2020, 02:03 PM
Wiregrassguy's Avatar
Wiregrassguy Wiregrassguy is offline
SWCA Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Ashford, AL
Posts: 4,831
Likes: 20,136
Liked 5,473 Times in 2,015 Posts
Default

Hot dayum! How do you guys find these treasures? I'll be someone wants to trade you a Schofield or Reg. Magnum for that kit. And, it's condition is awesome!
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA #2629
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 10-11-2020, 02:49 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 464
Liked 1,547 Times in 642 Posts
Default Box change

You can also see from a box comparison between the earlier Green box Pre-1887(iron molds) as compared to the 1887-1912 box that included the much larger Peanut molds? The box size increased accordingly. Much stronger and fiber lined material over the pasteboard. Huge difference!

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-a03aa9ca-4252-46f3-877f-9b381952ec12-jpg  
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 10-11-2020, 08:27 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 464
Liked 1,547 Times in 642 Posts
Default Identical Machining on parts

I decided to compare the older Target kit loading dies and tools to a Newer Improved kit with Peanut mold post 1887.

I found the Machining to be identical. The methods identical, cup for punch is identical, the mushroom head machining marks and design are also identical and the machined stops on both the two stage target plunger and the single stage 32 S&W plunger are also machined identical. So, I believe they were made at the same machine shop. I looked at these under a 60X power loop and you can clearly see the machine marks mimic one another. The primer punch is literally identical having the telltale hole/boss through the punch just aft of the pin.

Still doesn't answer the timeline question though. According to Mr. Jinks book the 32-44 and 38-44 Target New Model 3 was introduced in "LATE" 1887...Page 102... The Peanut mold kit was already in production and seen in their catalog for that year. This kit might just have been made earlier in the year to get ready for the Target gun? I don't know?

One thing is for sure though. The insulated handles of the Peanut mold were a "VAST" improvement over the old iron handle molds.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-d9a9483a-8666-4dc6-ad06-feec028b85c5-jpg   "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-27f5225f-47b9-4386-840e-eef12f554983-jpg   "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-3f2e3ad8-0094-469d-a766-274be9ea454e-jpg   "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-142c0740-24ab-4653-bac5-1cb7e5285172-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 10-11-2020 at 08:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 10-17-2020, 01:06 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 464
Liked 1,547 Times in 642 Posts
Default Who was that old guy?

I just received my final correspondence from the seller of the kit. He claimed the 90 year old guy's estate sold and they are tearing down his old house and out buildings. Making room for apartments? Typical. He didn't know his name.

I was trying to get more information from him so I could research the Old guys family history. Thinking that his family history might have shown some target shooting history but it's gone now. Oh well.

Murph
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-17-2020, 01:12 PM
Club Gun Fan's Avatar
Club Gun Fan Club Gun Fan is offline
SWCA Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,863
Likes: 2,422
Liked 7,708 Times in 2,115 Posts
Default

With the type of machine shop Smith & Wesson had back then, I see no reason why the reloading tools weren't made there.
__________________
Don Mundell S&WCA LM614
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 10-17-2020, 03:52 PM
BMur BMur is offline
Member
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 464
Liked 1,547 Times in 642 Posts
Default Who made the tools?

I totally agree Don,
Close study of the dies one can clearly see the difference between an early Remington kit and the early Smith & Wesson kit...Mainly in the loading dies...

The quality of the machine work is "way" different between the two... We know this for a fact since Remington not only offered Smith & Wesson calibers but others as well. Notice in the photo's of a 32 Long colt Remington kit the very visible "casting flaws" and rough milling marks that are not seen on proven Smith & Wesson dies. Outward appearance they seem very near the same but a close up inspection reveals that they are not.

The only real issue with the kits from my studies are the early iron bullet molds. The early iron molds are actually identical in both kits under the scope so I honestly don't know what happened there. I'm guessing that the molds were produced by a third party contractor as were the Mallets.

As far as the other tools though, I agree totally that Smith & Wesson likely machined the dies and primer punch. The quality is just too good. In fact it's perfect. A perfect machine fit with no visible flaws in the workmanship or in the casting of the dies.

Murph
Attached Thumbnails
"RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-bd615521-f6c0-4647-825e-826856ca24c3-jpg   "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-7a4c6411-1502-4726-980d-5af6551e154a-jpg   "RARE" 32-44 Target "Transitional" loading kit-34ff55b0-3f85-4b31-a879-1c7e1331737d-jpg  

Last edited by BMur; 10-17-2020 at 04:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"RARE" Antique 6 inch barrel "Summation" BMur S&W Antiques 4 01-31-2020 11:49 AM
**SOLD** WTS: S&W Factory "K" frame R/B Smooth Target "BANANA" grips CHARLIE699 Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 2 08-10-2019 01:12 AM
Rare - Mint Smith & Wesson "Lew Horton" M63-3 2.00" Snubnose Revolver Snubnose Freak GUNS - For Sale or Trade 4 05-23-2019 01:01 PM
"King-Sized" Outdoorsman - a "Ropered" Super Target RKmesa S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 38 09-12-2016 01:50 PM
How rare is a 4" Transitional 38/44 Postwar? one65r S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 14 01-10-2013 10:42 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:06 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)