Hi Everyone,
So I picked this up cheap because it needs some work. The store sold it as a 38 S&W, but there is no caliber listed. the serial number is not on the butt, only under the latch portion of the barrel and the cylinder which I believe it is 35100. It seems to be in good condition, and it has a date under the grips of 6-19 so it went back to the factory at some point. It needs a firing pin and a spring for the trigger, which i have ordered. how do i get the firing pin bushing out so I can change the firing pin?

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The serial number has been removed. It's an illegal gun that shop never should have sold it to you.

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Don Mundell

This appears to be a 38 Safety Hammerless, 2nd Model. With all markings buffed off, and an aftermarket re-plating the value would be as a shooter only. The aftermarket pearl grips do appear to be is reasonable condition and are probably worth as much as the revolver. With the s/n removed if may be an illegal handgun, what # did the shop list as the s/n?

If the action is tight, and mechanically sound it can make a fun shooter.

The bushing is a press fit, and after the firing pin & spring has been removed it can be tapped out from the back side. Hopefully the re-nickel hasn't "glued" it in.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Here we go again. It seems we see these altered guns about once a week. If the SN is as the OP says, as H Richard says, it is a SH, 2nd, which is an antique. BATF doesn't even consider them a gun. So, Federally, I doubt there would be a problem as long as it is not used to commit a Federal crime. Some states have restrictive laws and can be more limiting than Federal law. Mass. may be one of those but I doubt FLA is.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Lets bring it to BATFE and see what they say. Mass has nothing to do with it. I'm just saying, I'm too cute for prison.

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Don Mundell

Most likely shipped from the factory in 1889. I am thinking that prior to around 1898, there were no barrel caliber or SMITH & WESSON stampings on S&W revolvers. Mother-of-pearl stocks look to be factory original.

Sticky issue with regards to the butt serial number, since one needs an official serial number in ordered to determine if it is an antique?? The cut-off for antique status for a 38 Safety is serial number below 119,900, but with a gun that has the "official" serial number location defaced, how can anyone outside this community know?? If ever stopped on the way to the range, a police officer will look at the butt and will see nothing, so what will be the outcome of that encounter??

I have been siding on the fact that pre-1899 guns were not affected by the 1968 Gun Control Act. "Section IIIA. Weapons Removed from the NFA as Collectors’ Items which are Antiques not Subject to the Provisions of the GCA." So, guns in that section are not subject to the provisions of either the NFA (National Firearms Act) or the GCA (Gun Control Act).

Having said that, I would still not buy such a gun. The last thing I need is any trouble with law enforcement or the BATF.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Forgot the firing pin. There is a small pin that holds the bushing in place. Remove the pin and cycle the gun. That should loosen the bushing and allow one to remove it from the recoil shield. You will likely need a punch to drive the pin forward and out of the frame. Some have fashioned a small steel pin to place behind the bushing and let the hammer drive the bushing forward, but I have never tried that.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

It's a touchy situation that's for sure. On the one hand it's an antique and exempt from "modern firearms" requirements? but the real issue is the serial number appears to me to have been "purposely" removed...

So, to me the real issue is that the gun is likely stolen. There is no reason to remove that number. Well, we see lanyards installed, refinish can remove alot of that number or the drilling of a shoulder stock? but to buzz it off for no reason?

Statue of limitations on stolen guns is limitless. In other words, if a gun is stolen in 1965 and found in 2020? It's still a stolen gun... Whether antique or modern.

I personally would take the gun back to the shop and have them do a trace on it based on the visible serial numbers on the cylinder, barrel and latch. I'm sure one of those will include the entire number. The shop should have done that to begin with. I hope you kept your receipt!

There are a lot of antique firearms that actually have no serial number but this isn't one of them.

Murph

I concur with Murph. Take it back and get your money back. There are plenty of these guns around and they are cheap.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Although there are serial numbers in other places, the only number important is the one on the butt, and that is missing.

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Don Mundell

That is 100% true Don,
The gun could be a put together. In my opinion it's a stretch but it is possible. One can also have the frame X-rayed to reveal the original numbers. That does actually work but I'm not sure how much that would cost or if it would be worth it for this gun. Smith & Wesson typically stamped the numbers so deep on the frame that the impression and metal density would reveal the original serial number under X-Ray.

Too much work for me personally. I would return it like Guy suggested.

Murph

Does anyone know the date that Sn. obliteration became illegal.
And what agency.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I guess firearms didn’t even require a serial number until 1968.

Removal of frame serial numbers goes back to the dawn of thievery to obviously remove any proof of previous ownership.

Bonnie & Clyde removed serial numbers on guns they stole in the 1930’s. So, my vote is “ Theft” is the motivator in this case.

Also: See photo, I think that there might be some numbers still there if the OP would look closely with a loop?

Murph

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Hello Murph; thanks for comment. But when was it declared illegal and entitled the perp to a visit from the law?

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition, CFR 478; a.k.a. Gun Control Act of 1968:


§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

§ 478.92 Identification of firearms and armor piercing ammunition by licensed manufacturers and licensed importers.

1.FIREARMS. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch . . ."

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Antiques are not firearms.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

More apt to get in trouble for ripping the tag off a mattress. As stated it is an antique and the BATF does not regard it as a firearm. But, you could simply go to their web site and sent them an email to find out. Some local LEO might make it an issue, but most would even know if a gun that old even had a number to start with. Very few of them are firearms experts let alone knowledgeable about the oldies. But, really it is only a pile of parts and not worth much effort or money to fix. You should be able to find a nice one for pretty low dollars. I have a drawer full of small top breaks and don't think I paid over $250 for any of them

Lets not.

It's an antique non gun according to the ATF, and serial numbers were only required in 1968. I have as gun similar to this one, though mine is a .38 DA. It has serial numbers all over it, as I'm sure this one does.

I have several guns that don't have serial numbers. They are fully legal firearms that the Fed cares nothing about. You don't go inviting the Man into your life.

Bottom line is that it was defaced - period. Whether it was done to hide a stolen gun or a terrible refinishing process, there is no serial number on the frame. Second, the 38 S&W Safety revolver was made for some 50 years, so they are both antique and modern. I would not expect any law enforcement officer to know which side of 1898 it was made, so would never own one. Just not worth the risk to own a $150 revolver.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

lets change the OPs gun to a 4" nickel RM! Comments and ideas.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

The accepted process is to petition the BATF to have them approve the replacement of the serial number. It has been done before and there is no reason why the BATF would rule otherwise unless the gun was found to be stolen. There is always a risk, but for a Registered Magnum, it would be worth the effort. The big question would be why was the serial number be removed from the revolver?? My guess is that chances are high it could have been stolen at one point, hence my comment that I will never own a defaced serial number gun.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Hello Gary, agree with you. I just wish people would quit posting about guns with obliterated Sns. They are worthless, other than salvageable parts, that may have some value. I have seen to many of them in the last 60 years.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Ya it seams to happen a couple times a month and usually not antiques.

Here is an interesting story. Go into a pawn shop in the largest town in Montana. See a S&W. Hey its a 32 hand ejector, a fixed sight K frame. Cool/ But, then see serial number on butt and yoke are stamped over with XXXXX. Ask pawn shop guy about it. He says they got it that way from the Sheriiffs office and the Sherriffs office had done it and stamped a new number on side of grip frame. HUH. Said they did it to several guns used in crimes and then auctioned them. I know they have to keep a log for sheriffs office on all their stuff besides BATF log on guns. So, find it hard to believe he was Lying. Sid it with a straight face

I walked away. Although I think this can legally be taken care of it is simply not worth the bother for what will always be just shooter guns once this is done to the.

BTW, I have written the BATF with questions and always got a polite reply and never a knock on my door. Once I asked if it would be possible tt restamp a serial number in another location if you wanted to remove original. No longer possible, but it once was allowed even post GCA 68, then "policy changed".

Another time to ask about removing the import markings on the J&G gun smith specials. That is allowed as long as original manufactures serial number is not removed.

Are there not a whole lot of really nice guns to buy?
Rather than focus attention on guns with diddled with Sns.?
Getting to old to make excuses for a gun on the table.
And way to old to screw with BATFE for a few bucks of profit.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member