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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 11-05-2020, 11:19 AM
dsparker10000 dsparker10000 is offline
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Default Perfected Model No Serial

I have (I'm pretty sure) a Perfected Model. The nickel finish has some issues, but it's mechanically sound. I could only wish to be in this good a condition when I reach 100! The main issue with the gun is the serial number was filed off at some point before 1969 when my dad acquired it. I'd love to know the story behind that! I am sure this affects the value, but I was curious how much? Also, is there any chance the serial could be found somewhere else on the gun? I've only had the grips off so far. Any info and comments would be appreciated!
Top Break
Serial number filed off
38 S&W CTG
6" Barrel
Fixed sights
Strain screw
5 screw (right side plate)
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File Type: jpg RS.jpg (105.9 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg LS.jpg (79.8 KB, 175 views)
File Type: jpg Butt.jpg (70.1 KB, 167 views)
File Type: jpg Open.jpg (96.4 KB, 128 views)
File Type: jpg Barrel Marking.jpg (70.7 KB, 111 views)
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Old 11-05-2020, 11:26 AM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your gun is illegal and you will get told that by multitudes of site members. You can't legally sell or transfer it to someone else. The only way you will legally get to possess it is to get BATF to issue a new serial number. Sorry.


Oh, the serial number should be on the rear face of the cylinder and under the barrel latch.
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Old 11-05-2020, 11:47 AM
dsparker10000 dsparker10000 is offline
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Thanks, Wiregrassguy. Better to know now than find out the hard way! I checked the cylinder and those numbers were also removed. I guess whoever did it was careful.
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Old 11-05-2020, 12:03 PM
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Well, if you're in "this good a condition" at an advanced age, you're going to be a lot like me----everything works (more or less)---nothing's really wrong enough to fix---you'll be too fat----have a pretty fair bunch of wrinkles, and you won't have near as much hair as you used too. It'll be pretty much like this gun, where you note the finish "has some issues".

So, all things considered, you could be a lot worse off. The bad news is the value of your gun is based almost entirely on what you can see----the finish----the more the better. Based upon the photos, there's not much left---and none at all on the trigger and hammer (which is going to catch the attention of pretty much anyone who knows anything at all about this stuff-----which is pretty much everybody here).

Bottom Line: Not much finish equals not much value--never mind the serial number. You'll almost certainly find the serial number other than on the butt of the gun, but back to bad news again, the only serial number that counts is the one you don't have---as far as the law is concerned----and you know how those law folks are----picky, picky, picky!!

Ralph Tremaine

And no matter how careful the folks who removed the number were, the folks who made the gun were more careful. So, we've looked on the butt, and we've looked on the cylinder. Let's turn our attention to the barrel. Open the gun, and hold it by the barrel. Raise the barrel latch. Look at the rear of the barrel on the right hand side (rear of the barrel--inside the recess where the latch lives). Good light helps---and a little magnification doesn't hurt. Got it? Great! And if you don't got it, clean out the recess and look again. After you're absolutely sure it's not there, I'll still bet it is, but I'll have a look at the back side of the ejector.

Last edited by rct269; 11-05-2020 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 11-05-2020, 12:51 PM
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... and to add on to Ralph's excellent post, here's a photo of the back of my Perfected, showing where the latch and barrel serial numbers should be located. Note that the barrel serial number is usually split over the two sides of the barrel.

Mike

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Old 11-05-2020, 01:26 PM
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Ralph, Mike,
Thanks for good info. He removed the number from the barrel latch, but the numbers were still on the two sides of the barrel and the back of the ejector. 33492 (the 9 could be an 8).
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Old 11-05-2020, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsparker10000 View Post
Ralph, Mike,
Thanks for good info. He removed the number from the barrel latch, but the numbers were still on the two sides of the barrel and the back of the ejector. 33492 (the 9 could be an 8).
That would date to the early nine-teens. My Perfected is serial number 368xx and shipped in March of 1914.

Mike
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Old 11-05-2020, 03:28 PM
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...might also have the serial Number on the inside of the Side Plate.
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Old 11-05-2020, 03:51 PM
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The official BATF legal serial number is the one on the receiver.
The other locations are handy for dating and originality but do not signify to the feds.
So, as said, you could not sell it to a knowledgeable person because it is officially contraband.

Will it be searched out by Beto's Boys? Probably not.
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Old 11-05-2020, 03:52 PM
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Doesn't matter if you find the serial number or not, only the original serial number stamped on the frame is accepted by the BATF. Guy's comments still stand. It is very likely that the gun was stolen at some point in its life and nothing I would want in my collection. Even the act of taking it to the range could result in your arrest if you get stopped by police.

Oh, I know that some will say that guns made before the Gun Control Act of 1968 do not need to have a serial number stamped on the frame, but way too risky to own such a gun, let alone try to sell it. You put your entire collection at risk. No respectable FFL would not touch it and if sold across state lines an FFL is the only legal way to sell a modern handgun, plus most in-state sales now require an FFL transaction for handgun transfers. Strip is down and sell the parts and toss the frame. You will be way ahead financially, since you cannot find parts for this model, and will not get into any trouble with authorities.
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Old 11-05-2020, 04:34 PM
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Gary's recommendations to part it out and ditch the skeletonized frame is spot on. With that kind of deliberate defacing of the serial # in multiple locations, it was most certainly stolen. That also means there's a good chance that it was used in a crime. I would not want to have a barrel in my collection that could possibly trace back to a crime in a ballistics check, even with all the decades that have gone by.

When you part it out, keep everything but the actual frame. That means the side plate, the screws, etc. All of it has value.
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Old 11-05-2020, 05:15 PM
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John has good advice. Guys, its an old out dated caliber. not even
chambered for guns today.
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Old 11-05-2020, 06:08 PM
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Thanks, everyone for the good advice. I had no idea. It sort of breaks my heart, but at least it will be fun to strip it down and see the inner works. And I don't have a particular sentimental attachment to this one.
David
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Old 11-05-2020, 11:13 PM
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If it was made before 1968 and never had a serial number from manufacture like 2 22 rifles I own it it legal to own and transfer. FFL just puts none or NA in that line on the form. BUT, it it was made before 1968 and did have a serial number, it is illegal to own, even if it was removed prior to 1968. Ah, but prior to 1968 it was legal to relocate the serial number and even for some time after 1968 Gunsmiths were allowed to relocate the serial number. And yes, I emailed a BATF guy on this. Relocating serial number is no longer allowed. How they tell when the number was relocated is beyond me.

But, you could contact the BATF about obtaining permission to have the gun assigned a new serial number.


But, then it will never be worth anything but for shooter value or parts so not worth much trouble.

By the way in Montana if a LEO asked me to see my gun or its serial number and I had not been accused of any crime I could tell him to go pound sand. He is no more allowed to search it any more than he can demand to look inside my wallet or the trunk or glove compartment of my car. Warrant please. Still believe in the 4th and 5th amendments here. No violations in open view, on closer looks. Even during hunting season here you can still drive around with a loaded rifle in your rig to. Thats called the right to keep and bear arms. 2nd amendment. A game warden would get laughed at for even asking.

Last edited by steelslaver; 11-05-2020 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 11-05-2020, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmborkovic View Post
Guys, its an old out dated caliber. not even chambered for guns today.
That is true, but commercially made ammo is still available.
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Old 11-06-2020, 12:05 AM
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Default Nice gun

The one thing California did right recently is to make it a felony for firearms theft no matter what the value.

Any and all “altered” no serial number guns Here would get you a one way ticket to a cell block.

Oh, and there is a serial number on this gun. I guarantee the likely thief did not remove the number on the base pin.

So assuming the gun is stolen and assuming the poor guy filed a police report? That number would be enough to prove the gun is stolen.

So, honestly? And in the real world? The gun doesn’t belong to you! It’s stolen. It belongs to someone else who had the gun taken from them!

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 11-06-2020 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 11-06-2020, 02:08 PM
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His dad acquired it in 1969. If it was stolen in 1969 and the owner was actual owner was only 21, he would be 72 now. The police report would have been on paper and possibly never entered into a computer. IF theft was prior to 68 and that likely itt would probably never been reported to the feds. May not have known the serial number etc. Very likely first sold well before GCA 68 so doubtful it there is any record of original sale.
Chances of finding out who what or where are remote.

I am not stating the gun is legal, that it is a good idea to keep it or anything just thinking out loud about it
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Old 11-06-2020, 05:02 PM
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Default honest opinion

I'm certainly not passing any judgement. The real world isn't Disneyland. Flea Markets are full of stolen items so you can't fix every wrong doing. I just feel for the owner is all. This gun to me, just my gut feeling is that it has family history to it. Not your typical standard Smith & Wesson self defense piece. If it was mine, I'd want it back. We can all relate to a "Grandfather's" gun, etc. Family history is often about inanimate objects that bring back strong family memories.

Going back to the Bonnie & Clyde example? One of the revolvers that Clyde stole had the serial number removed, obviously by him or one of the gang members. The owner of the gun filled out a police report in the early 1930's that included the original serial number and they were able to return it to him believe it or not from other details of the report. So, who knows.

Interesting tid bit....When the gun was sold at auction a few years ago along with another of the Bonnie and Clyde gang guns? The ATF allowed them to stamp another serial number on the gun prior to the auction so it could be sold legally due to "Historical Significance". I think that lot sold for about $500k.

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Old 11-06-2020, 05:29 PM
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Well, here is what I did. I wrote the BATF this email.

Will reprint any reply or let you know if they came to the door and talk to the wife, an attorney

as follows

I am active on a gun forum and about once a month someone shows up asking questions about a gun that has had the serial number removed. Usually an older gun that the got through a family member who passed, but in some cases they purchased it. Mostly they are ignorant and unaware that the gun needs the original serial number. They are always advised that such a gun is illegal to own. But, there have been a couple instances where some one has advised that they went to your agency. Usually though a law enforcement contact, and where able to stamp a new number on the gun. I myself saw a gun with a marked over serial number and was advised that it had been done by the local sheriffs office.



My question is this possible and if so just what is the procedure to follow?



And no, I don’t own such a gun myself. Have never figured any I have know of to be worth the time, effort or possible trouble.

Thank you
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Old 11-08-2020, 12:13 AM
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First of all I would ask this learned group, how many times have you driven to the range and been stopped by law enforcement and had your firearms checked for serial number?

Let's take an informal poll. If you have ever been stopped and had this happen, please state the date and why you were stopped. Were your guns checked for serial numbers? Did this evolve into a summons or a court date?

I for one have been a licensed gun owner for almost 50 years now. I have many range trips logged, I have fished for most of those years and hunted for most of those years. To date, I have NEVER been stopped by a law enforcement officer, a game warden, the FBI, the BATF, the DEA, the CIA or any other letter agency that you can think of and had my guns looked at or serial numbers checked. Never even seen one close up in all those years.

I understand the law about serial numbers but I think that many times this issue gets blown way out of proportion.

Also, just because a gun has had the serial number removed, it does not mean that the gun was stolen. The only thing that can be said with certainty is that the serial number has been removed. Period. Personally, I would not worry about it nor would I be afraid to take it to the range.

Cancer I worry about, nuclear war I worry about, reinstatement of the assault weapons ban I worry about, this, not so much.
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Old 11-08-2020, 09:01 AM
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Here unless I have the gun on me while being accused of a crime a LEO can't even ask to look it over. Game warden can't ask if it is loaded and that is no offense anyway. No obvious crime they need a warrant to just look in my glove compartment, wallet or what have you. If I am outside away from my vehicle and accused of a crime he can not go to my vehicle and search it without a warrant. The Bill of Rights actually means something here.

I think it will be interesting to see what the BATF responds to my email. I know guns have had numbers re stamped before. But, like most Alphabets it seems to matter who decides on which day just what is legal.

Last edited by steelslaver; 11-08-2020 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 11-08-2020, 11:33 AM
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This is just my humble opinion but, IF I were ever asked by any LEO to show them my firearm for any reason/inspection, I would do so without reservation. I'm very old and was taught to respect the LEO(s); and since I would not be in possession of anything illegal under any circumstances, this would further enhance my willingness in assisting law enforcement in their endeavors.
IMHO as always,
J.
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Old 11-08-2020, 11:54 AM
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How many present day LEO of any kind would even know where the Serial Number would have been, or know if one had ever even been present to begin with, on a Revolver of this age?

Pretty well none, that's how many...

Even most FFLS now would have no idea.
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Old 11-08-2020, 12:01 PM
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8 or 10 years ago, I was living in Las Vegas, and one had to Register any concealable arm with the Police there.

This meant even a Flint Lock Pistol, anything...etc...

I had gotten a reproduction Colt 3rd Model Dragoon, and so I dutifully went to 'register' it.

The guy in charge of Registration for the Station I went to, insisted my Revolver was a .44 Special, and he would not listen to reason.

I pointed out nicely how there are no openings on the rear of the Cylinder to load metallic Cartridges, but he would not believe me.

So it got registered as a "44 Special" Colt 'Dragoon'.

Welcome to LEO-Land in the 21st Century ladies and gentlemen...and this was on a good day.
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Old 11-08-2020, 02:31 PM
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James, I too have never been stopped or checked going to the range.
I too have never had a firearm with obliterated frame numbers.
What my concern is that someone may use an altered numbered gun as
a personal carry weapon to protect themselves either out and about or at home. If the unfortunate came about where you had to discharge said weapon and the police got involved, you are left alive but carrying an altered gun. What would happen, not a clue.
Solution: simple, carry a legal gun.
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Old 11-08-2020, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyeboteb View Post
Even most FFLS now would have no idea.
Funny you should say that. I bought a Triple Lock once and had it shipped to my FFL. He had no idea where the serial number was and listed the serial number as the model number. It's amazing how little he knows about firearms.
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Old 11-08-2020, 06:07 PM
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Like observed here lots of LEOs are not really gun guys. I have twice had FFL holders start writing down the yoke cut out assy number of older models on the 4473.

If a Leo asked to seem my gun I might ask why, but in all probability let him as I have zip to hide. My wife on the other hand would inform him of her legal opinion and demand a warrant. Being an attorney she is funny that way. LOL

I do agree that such guns are more trouble than anything else. But, I am interested in finding out what the BATF responds.
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Old 11-08-2020, 06:31 PM
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Default BATF "Compliance inspections"

I guess I'm just not a lucky person? I've seen BATF at rifle ranges, gun shows, multiple gun shops, etc. (All of those gun shops are closed now) California is such a wonderful place to live.

They call it a "Compliance inspection". Using the GCA ( Gun control Act of 1968) as their guidance. I was at a range once where they actually walked up and down the range looking at firearms. I saw them pick up a few semi-auto rifles also. I wasn't there long enough to see any bad results but they were certainly looking closely.

I have personally seen them set up a table at a major gun show to "Sting" illegal gun activity. Needless to say I steered clear of any and all of those locations. No serial number guns are a well known part of their basic inspections.

So, I'm more focused on BATF than any LEO. I don't like to verbally explain any firearm specs (Especially antiques since they don't know much about them) to LEO's so I keep copies of DROS on each firearm I have in my vehicle etc in the gun cases for each gun. Yeah, I'm anal but it works!

LEO's seem to focus more on basic laws here. Like storage, concealed carry, "loaded" vs. unloaded firearms, locked storage and legal transportation of firearms.

I was hunting once during deer season and was pulled over in my 56' Chevy panel truck due to a headlight out. It actually popped on the way up North so not much I could do but it sure got me pulled over in a hurry.

The officer asked me right away, "Do you have any firearms?.....I said well, yeah, I'm going hunting. I said they are all legal, registered, licensed, and unloaded and he just smiled and let me go. Gave me a fix it ticket for the headlight.

Murph

Last edited by BMur; 11-08-2020 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 11-08-2020, 06:34 PM
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As one further note and observation, this gun wears the 2 screw extension target stocks common on the single shots and the .22/32 HFT's. As such, the stocks cover the butt of the gun and therefore even if the gun butt bore a serial number it would not be visible. As others have stated many FFL's and LEO's are not familiar where all manufacturers place their serial numbers so again I would not worry about it. You are free to do as you choose.
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Old 11-08-2020, 10:40 PM
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Default This is what I did....

I went through a simillar situation with a Nickel Colt Detective Special that once belonged to the Sheriff in my locale. He became very close friends to a friend of mine and gave my friend his Colt which had his name engraved on it..and the serial number area was scratched/ground off. My friend, who passed away last year, told me to "weld the cylinder shut/don't shoot it". I wanted to shoot it and keep the gun as a tribute/memory to my friend. I own a number of guns and did NOT want to jeopardize my privilege to own guns so I contacted the local BATF office. They sent an agent out to my home and we discussed the situation and I had documentation that the "engraved" Colt was owned by the Sheriff back in the early 30's. I was a bit nervous as the agent said we had 3 options. 1. For him to take the gun and not return it. 2. For him to take it and send it to a lab to try to see if they could "pull" the serial number. 3. Sorry I cannot recall option #3. I might add that several parties on respected forums said I would be foolish to contact the BATF but the gun had so much sentimental value that I wanted to be able to "legally" keep and fire the weapon. The meeting with the BATF agent took place May 10 2019. After that meeting I was fairly diligent in contacting the agent however my "case" was way down the list of BATF priorities

Last edited by Oldbird13; 11-09-2020 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 11-08-2020, 10:46 PM
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This is what I did...continued
After the meeting with the BATF agent my friend passed away unexpectedly and my Dad who was also close to my friend passed last Christmas. This gun now had greater importance. I received a call within the last 60 days that they could not pull the serial number but were sending the gun to an engraver for a new serial number and I would get it back. Not sure if I would go through this again unless there was tremendous sentimental value in the gun like there is with this Colt. I know it isn't a Smith but when I finally receive it I will post photos.
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Old 11-09-2020, 09:40 AM
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Thank you for your story. Finally found someone who followed the process with success. What that tells me is that the gun, without a frame serial number, was illegal to own in the eyes of the BATFE. Was it manufactured before 1968?
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Old 11-09-2020, 10:01 AM
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The Sheriff was "The" Sheriff in the early 1930's. The Colt DS is a 1st series gun made before 1940 so prior to the Act.
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Old 11-09-2020, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
What that tells me is that the gun, without a frame serial number, was illegal to own in the eyes of the BATFE
Amen to this!.. However, they did offer a remedy.

(I wouldn't count on this in every instance. It would probably depend on the agent one was working with, and which side of the bed he got up on that morning...)
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Old 11-09-2020, 10:27 AM
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Far as I recall, a Licensed Gunsmith can also petition the B of A T F & E on behalf of the Gun Owner, to then Stamp the Serial Number back on the Butt.
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Old 11-09-2020, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Oyeboteb View Post
Far as I recall, a Licensed Gunsmith can also petition the B of A T F & E on behalf of the Gun Owner, to then Stamp the Serial Number back on the Butt.
That would seem to be the most logical course of action.
(But logic and a Federal bureaucracy don't always mix.)

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Old 11-09-2020, 12:15 PM
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Default Standard Procedure

In my opinion the BATF simply follows a standard procedure based on the GCA of 1968.

The difference being the outcome for the person in possession of the no serial number altered gun. If they "find" the altered gun or if the "altered" serial number gun is presented to them.

If they find it in a compliance search? It's gone! and they then look for proof that the gun is in fact stolen by attempting to pull up the serial number. While you wait in a cell block. If the number comes up or if they find a number on the gun? They then run a check to see if they can locate a Police report that proves the gun was stolen. Not unlike the Bonnie and Clyde gun. The owner filled out a report in the 1930's. So I think the ultimate outcome is based on the BATF finding proof that the gun was stolen and if the original owner filled out a Police Report.

If they can prove the gun was stolen? The outcome as an example for this Sheriffs gun would be much different in my view. Even if it was stolen in 1940!!

The response from the BATF would have been much different! NOT WORTH IT! in my opinion that was a big risk.

Just my opinion. I have no problem going legal and exercising my rights? but I prefer to "Avoid" having to do so. It can cost you a lot of time, money, and major headache. When its all said and done? The gun isn't worth the $50,000 lawyer fees!

I have a few horror stories from extremists in California who have ZERO gun knowledge but won’t hesitate to scream at the top of their lungs “GUN”!!!!

In Oklahoma they don’t even blink at the sight of a firearm but in California?, specifically the Bay Area? You have to experience it. There are NO gun rights according to the left!


Murph

Last edited by BMur; 11-09-2020 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 11-09-2020, 12:16 PM
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I guess I'm just not a lucky person? I've seen BATF at rifle ranges, gun shows, multiple gun shops, etc. (All of those gun shops are closed now) California is such a wonderful place to live.

They call it a "Compliance inspection". Using the GCA ( Gun control Act of 1968) as their guidance. I was at a range once where they actually walked up and down the range looking at firearms. I saw them pick up a few semi-auto rifles also. I wasn't there long enough to see any bad results but they were certainly looking closely.

I have personally seen them set up a table at a major gun show to "Sting" illegal gun activity. Needless to say I steered clear of any and all of those locations. No serial number guns are a well known part of their basic inspections.

So, I'm more focused on BATF than any LEO. I don't like to verbally explain any firearm specs (Especially antiques since they don't know much about them) to LEO's so I keep copies of DROS on each firearm I have in my vehicle etc in the gun cases for each gun. Yeah, I'm anal but it works!

LEO's seem to focus more on basic laws here. Like storage, concealed carry, "loaded" vs. unloaded firearms, locked storage and legal transportation of firearms.

I was hunting once during deer season and was pulled over in my 56' Chevy panel truck due to a headlight out. It actually popped on the way up North so not much I could do but it sure got me pulled over in a hurry.

The officer asked me right away, "Do you have any firearms?.....I said well, yeah, I'm going hunting. I said they are all legal, registered, licensed, and unloaded and he just smiled and let me go. Gave me a fix it ticket for the headlight.

Murph
and where does it say that even the BATF has a right to search my private property with no warrant or probable cause. The guns show Maybe. The range never. Lots of LEOs over step the law and think they have more powers than they really do. Plus, if you don't claim your legal right you can forfeit it. In other words even he has 0 authority to look your gun over, if he ask and you hand it over you gave up you right against illegal search. Just like when a LEO ask to enter your home. If you say come on in his good. If you say NO, he needs a warrant.

Here I have been stopped for speeding with several (loaded) rifles, handguns and such in plain view. Never even asked a single question about them. If a game warden stopped me going down the road and asked if my guns were loaded I would simply say "Why do you ask?" First here it is 100% legal and here my truck is an legally an extension of my home and can only be searched without a warrant if a criminal violation is in plain sight. A gun is not a crime. He can't even ask me if I have a permit if he sees a hand gun in my rig. No permit needed for that.
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Old 11-09-2020, 09:16 PM
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PS, Just to be clear.

I don't have any interest in owning a gun with a removed number or illegal in any way. I would definitely avoid owning one. If I came across an interesting one that I did want, I will know how to deal with it or will not get it. That simple. But, my rights are my rights and searching my private belonging without a warrant isn't happening. Now a FFL holder has agreed to have his checked at any time. Big difference
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Old 11-10-2020, 12:08 AM
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Since whstever occurred happened 51 years ago I doubt records still exist, and I would venture even if they do given how many Topbreak smiths might have the same serial as this one had even matching it up would be the same odds as buying a winning lottery ticket, getting shark bit, and struck by lightning all in the same day. If it really worried me there is a simple remedy machinist already know....
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Old 11-10-2020, 12:41 AM
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You're making too much sense Randy. I personally like the machinist solution. GAME OVER!

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Old 11-16-2020, 06:05 PM
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Here is the BATF response to my lettter above.

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email, in which you asked about the possibility of ATF assigning a new serial number on a gun where the original serial number has been removed.



Under certain circumstances, an ATF-issued serial number can be assigned to a firearm when the original serial number has been removed. This process is facilitated through local ATF Field Offices. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found here.



Respectfully,



G. Kubert | Senior Industry Operations Investigator

U.S. Department of Justice | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Firearms Industry Programs Branch

99 New York Avenue NE, Mail Stop 6.N-512

Washington, DC 20226
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Old 11-16-2020, 07:41 PM
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BTW when the email says here, this is the link

https://www.atf.gov/contact/atf-field-divisions
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