Second Model American

Boulder350 · #1 11-10-2020, 01:19 AM

Just picked up this late second model American with a cut barrel. Its the first one I've owned and have a few questions on some repairs and the cylinder.

The extractor works, kind of. It pops up about and 1/8" and then falls back to the cylinder. Not sure if something was put back together wrong or its a weak spring.

The barrel latch is missing spring tension so I'm assuming the spring is broken or missing. Were these usually flat springs in the revolver? Not sure where I could buy a replacement.

Tried a 44 Russian round in the cylinder and it fits, but a little loose. Thought the 44 American round was smaller in diameter with a heeled bullet.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

kryten67 · #2 11-10-2020, 11:30 AM

Hello Mark, I also have a 2nd model american but its setup to shoot the 44 russian. I don't see any step in the cylinder which is correct for 44 american rounds? On the ratchet assembly I used a book from david chicoine called gunsmithing guns of the old west and around page 297 goes into a detailed description on how to get the assembly corrected. PM me is you need scans done.

Regards
Everett

glowe · #3 11-10-2020, 11:48 AM

The 44 American round measures .438 neck & .440 at base. The 44 Russian measures .457 at neck and the same at the base, so you are correct that the Russian round is bigger than the 44 American. If your 44 Russian rounds are loose in the chamber, 44 American rounds will really rattle and not be correct.

You state the gun is a late 2nd Model so is the serial number at the bottom of the butt 20,000 or higher range? If so, I am under the impression that it is most likely that gun started life as a 44 American. This revolver left the factory in one of three calibers; 44 American, 44 Russian, or 44 Henry RF. As I read in Jinks book, the 44 Russian, 1st Model was only made in the 1 to 20,000 range.

Unfortunately, early gunsmiths or hobbyists seem to have had a propensity to alter chambers in the 44 American. I have had a few over the years. Maybe it was a result of the 44 American round becoming impossible to find, so the gun was altered to another caliber?? From looking at the thin wall at the mouth of the cylinder, I wonder if it might now have a 45 Colt chamber?? That would be scary to shoot!!! Could you measure the chamber, front and rear, plus the bore?

Everett reminded me that I have a schematic for the Model 3 top latch and it is below. The spring is a "V" style and can be made without too much trouble using spring steel. or a large paper binder clip. and a Dremel cutting tool.

Boulder350 · #4 11-10-2020, 06:02 PM

Everett,
Thanks for the tip on the book. Have heard about it a few times on this forum. This time I looked for one on line and found it for under $70. Placed the order and its on its way to my place.

Gary,
Took the two screws out that retain the sight/latch and the flat piece. Either there is a flat spring missing or the existing piece is to worn out? The back of the cylinder is between .460 and .465. The front is .465. The bore is about .430 to .432. I'm not very good with a caliper so these are close sizes.

Here are a few more pictures. Looks like someone reamed out the chambers in the cylinder. The serial number for this one is 3115x

Wiregrassguy · #5 11-10-2020, 06:38 PM

Those dimensions are closer to .44-40 Winchester. But you said the cylinder is wider at the front than at the rear. IIRC, .44-40 tapers from back to front.

BMur · #6 11-10-2020, 07:26 PM

Extremely common way back when to drill out the old 44 chamber to except the much more powerful 44WCF.... Lots and Lots of them out there.
There are so many in fact that I often wonder when they were actually done. They are often crudely done so in my opinion there is some history to these conversions. Also, reloading was much more common in those early days so adapting the 44WCF to chamber in this old American was doable and was obviously done often. Also, in my opinion the obvious reason was to not only increase the power of the revolver with black powder loads? but also to easily find available 44WCF rounds. Those rounds were found literally everywhere since the Winchester rifle and several other revolvers chambered this very popular round in the Old West.

The bore measurements you gave are within tolerance regarding the use of the 44WCF round. Also, keep an "open mind" when we are talking about a modified gun? Obviously the person that did the modification was well aware of the need to modify the bullet he used as well. Very basic reloading technique. The difference between a .427 bullet and a .430 bullet is not a lot.

Murph

glowe · #7 11-10-2020, 08:06 PM

Yes the "V" spring is missing. it can be made and the dimensions are not too critical, so unless someone can provide you with measurements, you can scale it off the schematic comparing measurements to other parts and derive the approximate dimensions of the spring.

I think the latest images prove what I thought might have happened, as someone has used a drill bit or really poor mill to ream the chambers out. The bullet for the 44 American bullet is .434" and .430" is only .004" smaller than the 44 American. I believe the chambers have been reamed too large to use the original ammunition.

I once owned the 44 American I pictured below that someone did a similar thing except even more crudely reamed than yours. I had the chambers sleeved to accept 44 American and shot the gun for several years. It is a very easy project for a tool & die maker/machinist and you might want to do that in order to get the gun back into shooting condition. My machinist simply made 6 sleeves and milled the chambers out to allow the sleeves to be inserted. He epoxied the sleeves in place instead of soldering so the original patina of the cylinder would not be altered. Not too expensive and I enjoyed getting the Smith back in shooting order.

Boulder350 · #8 11-11-2020, 01:13 AM

The 44-40 round fits great in 5 chambers and ok in the 6th. The round is to long for the cylinder but with hand loads one could seat the bullet deeper in the case and the gun would function correctly.

Great idea Gary. Will do as you suggest to make the new spring.

Thanks

glowe · #9 11-11-2020, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boulder350

The 44-40 round fits great in 5 chambers and ok in the 6th. The round is to long for the cylinder but with hand loads one could seat the bullet deeper in the case and the gun would function correctly. . . Thanks

It could easily have been loaded with hollow-base wadcutters.

BMur · #10 11-16-2020, 11:15 PM

I know that most of us just look inside those chambers and see basically that someone took a drill to those chambers? I guess it is possible? but what I am suggesting "based on research" is that many were actually altered during that period basically because the person who owned the gun couldn't find the correct ammo. It wasn't available in the small town or remote location that they settled in. Not too hard to imagine.

Here is some actual evidence. Bridgeport Gun Implements was a fairly large firm in Ct. They manufactured many gun and loading products along with sporting goods. Notice from my collection of reloading equipment from that period?(Circa 1880) I have examples in 32 S&W, 38 S&W, and 38 Long loading dies that are all original and unaltered. Notice in the photo of the inside of the die? Looks a lot like your chambers doesn't it? Milling in that period wasn't all like Smith & Wesson products. Often the finished product was rough but functional. I've actually used these dies and they work fine but don't look inside them! Every BGI die that I have seen looks like this. Some are a little better some are actually worse but ALL have rough milling work!

Murph