Up here in Canada we have some screwy gun laws - as I'm sure you have heard...
Anyway, I have this near-mint .44 Double Action First Model or Third or whatever you want to call it - Dan Wesson's "New Model Navy No. 3" with a serial number over 50,000. Now we all know that Roy Jinks established that all the frames were made before 1899, but he only used this date because the cut-off year in the US for antiques is 1899. In Canada it's 1898. So, the good folks at our RCMP insist that mine could have been made after January 1, 1898 and therefore is not antique and needs to be registered as a restricted weapon. I have been trying for months - almost a year now - to convince them that it is quite likely that this gun was made before 1898. So far without any success. My only hope would be to find a gun with a higher serial number and some form of provenance to put it before January 1 1898. It would stand to reason that if one with a higher serial number than mine already existed before 1898, mine would have to have existed even earlier... Mine has serial number 50831. I have been in touch with Roy and he was kind enough to write in his factory letter that the frame may very well have been made before 1898 but the cops won't believe me - yet. Maybe one of you good folks has a higher number gun with pre-1898 provenance??
Oh, and here is my argument:
- 54,668 made from 1881 to 1898 = 17 years, =3,215 on average per year
- last year of production could have been SN51453 and up
- 50831 would have been made before 1898,especially if one considers that early and late production years may have seen lower numbers produced...

You got an official letter from Roy and the CMP won't believe you? You know that's bureaucratic horsepuckey. If it was up to me I'd file what we call a declaratory judgment lawsuit against the police but I don't guess you can do that in Canada. Good luck - this campfire has a GREAT many experts with such thing.

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Come and take it!!

.44-40? Or, .44 Russian?

How long is the Cylinder?

You are fighting against the cops who have been given carte blanche by the libs in this rathole, please keep fighting because we have an election coming and our only choice is the cons, good luck, because the cops are flounting their baloney ever since may 1st, bin dere dun dat.
Tried positioning myself with a 12-6 on a 39-2 and a 5906, had to briley both of them, increased them from 4" to 4 1/8" on both of them, 300.00 each, barrel and machining.

If a letter for a factory guy that documents anything will hold more status then what ever you will may get from a member here... and if the government does not honor that, why would they believe a citizen of anywhere (another country) ?? Good luck but your only other option is to get a different government official to examine Roy’s letter with your gun.

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S&W factory revolver armorer

To Whom It May Concern, Smith and Wesson, .44 double action serial number 50831 was manufactured before January 1, 1898.

James Redfield
Smith and Wesson Collectors Association
Life Member 497
November 17, 2020

There you go....

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James Redfield
LM #497

You cant beat the system as long as your citizens pass these laws. Thank God you didnt buy a MG 20 years ago ( 10K+ CND) Like my Bud did now he cant sell it or transfer it, and restricted transport laws.

James, don't you mean before January 1, 1899?

If I read the OP correctly, Canada judges guns as antiques if made before January 1, 1898.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Figured I would leave some wiggle room......

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James Redfield
LM #497

Sure wish Ed would chime in here with his Floor records. He can likely tell you the “DAY” of manufacture.

Murph

If it's 44 40 it's not antique
RCMP go by FRT not arbitrary opinions
You can download the FRT and look it up,

How does the .44-40 chambering make it not an antique?

All 44 Double Action revolvers are classified as antiques. Frames manufactured and serial numbered before 1899. It is not an arbitrary opinion, it is a fact and documentation exists in the form of letters to and from S&W and the BATFE. If Canada claims they are not antique, they are wrong. Problem is who is going to tell the authorities in Canada?

Besides, the 44 Double Action Frontier revolver had a serial number range from 1 to 15,340 and production started in 1886, so the OP's gun was originally built in 44 Russian caliber being in the 50,000 serial number range.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Hi Oldmanwesson,

As we all should have asked right off the Bat -

"Please post some good pictures of this Revolver", so we can see what it is we are talking about.

Thanks!

Oyeboteb

I think the problem is that Canada elected to define 'antique' as having to have been made prior to January 1st, 1898.

While the criteria in the US is Jan'y 1st 1899.

So, Canada is concerned that a Big Frame "DA" Top Break may have been made after Jan'y 1 1898, even if having been made before Jan'y 1 1899.

So they need some official 'proof' that all S & W Top Break .44 Frame size "DA"s had been made ( even if finished later, ) before Jan'y 1st 1898...which we all I am sure, are confident that the were.

Being as the .44-40 Chambering was a longer Frame and longer Cylinder, I do not see how a .44 Russian Frame and Cylinder would be altered to .44-40.

While, some of the erstwhile .44-40 "run" of Revolvers as far as Cylinder length and the longer Frame, were chambered in .44 Russian to fill orders for them in .44 Russian...and I have such a one myself.

Late 44 DAs all had the long cylinder for both 44 Russian and 44-40.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I may have missed something, but I didn't see anywhere that the OP actually had any document from Roy or anybody else with a definitive statement. He says he is trying to "convince them that it's quite likely that this gun was made before 1898."

He also said that "we all know that Roy Jinks established ...". Well, I didn't know.

So before we continue the pointless verbal abuse of Canadian authorities, could somebody post actual documentation from Roy that would convince non-S&W nerds at some legally sustainable level?

Here's the conundrum - The factory production log shows that .44DA, ser. # 50831 was assembled May 22, 1906, as part of a production run of 150 plated guns, using a frame from inventory and said frame was forged and placed in inventory prior to 1898, which makes it an antique in the eyes of the US laws. Canada is a different story, and I'm assuming Roy Jink's letter shows a ship date after May 22, 1906, as his letters are based on shipping ledgers, not on manufacturing ledgers. Whether you can get Canada to go on Roy's info. that the frame is a pre 1898 item or when the assembled gun was shipped, is the conundrum. Ed .

And I think the only way to help the OP is indeed to assist him in acquiring something “official” in writing, over Roy’s signature as S&W historian, which attests to this. If this exists, as was intimated above, somebody should post a copy or link.

Getting any bureaucrat to accept assurances of “quite likely” and even Roy’s “may well have been made before 1898” in the letter (hedging his bet, in other words) as legal proof would seem futile, in any country.

Canada will classify it as antique if it's made before 1898 and not
in 32 colt or S&W ,38 colt or S&W ,38/40 ,44/40 or 45colt
Or 22 rf

The way that I see this is:

1) there is a discrepancy between the countries as to what year is used for antique cut off. In the US it is pre 1899 and in Canada it is pre 1898.

2) Some jurisdictions also add a determination as to whether ammunition is currently made and readily available.

3) Although the BATF uses the year that the frame was made and serial number applied as the determination of birth date, another jurisdiction may use the date that the gun was assembled or shipped.

Since this is such a tight time frame for making the decision, it appears that Canada is choosing to err on the side of caution and refuse antique status.

Many of those that are in such positions would prefer to see no firearms in the hands of private citizens and therefore will use anything possible to deny another one.

I fear that unless Roy or some S&W company official was willing to state that the gun was made on say April 6, 1897, then the OP is swimming upstream.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I suspect Canada has people writing gun laws like our own that defy logic. Take the Colt Single Action Army 45 if I buy one made prior to 1898 it can shipped straight to my door no FFL required. The same gun made in 1900 up to 1970 has to go through a FFL 01 or 03 curio and relic, one made 1970- 2020 has to go through a FFL 01. Same gun, same caliber different rules based on it's birth year.

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Randy

We are just as screwed up here! I once had to register 6 “clearly” antique 41 Rimfire derringers because the BATF lists them as Curios! FACT.

We only get one modern gun a month in California so it took me 7 Months of BS to finally get them all!

I’ll never do it again! It was only because they were so cheap!
FFL holders are required to confirm status of any firearm sold on the BATF website. BATF actually listed them as Curios! The first model Remington double derringer was made in 1867!!! I had to register it!!! NO BS!! I still have ALL the paperwork.
I insisted that in the comments section of the application (DROS) the FFL holder write clearly “ This is an antique firearm manufactured in 1867 and chambers black powder ammunition that is no longer manufactured!
So look in the mirror before you point the finger North. We don’t have our act together here either!

If you don’t believe me? Have any FFL holder access the firearms reference list for FFL holders on the BATF website! It’s totally inaccurate!! They list many, many clearly antique guns as Curios!

I believe this is the sole reason that you see antiques for sale in various websites that are being sold by an FFL holder and in the listing you see clearly “ FFL Required”. Because the FFL license holder goes to the BATF website because they have little knowledge of this specific “antique”, looks up the gun, and see’s curio as the identifier. So they list FFL required!

Murph

.44 Russian, long strap ( 1 9/16)

Here are some pictures. When I tried to apply for antique status
I found out:
1. The "cut-off" for antique vs. restricted is arbitrary in this case. I asked if, for future reference, they could give me the serial number cut-off above which these revolvers would not be considered antique anymore so I would know which ones to stay away from. They do not have such a limit. I also own SN 49536 which they classified as antique. So, it must be somewhere around the 50000 mark?
2. Only .44 Russian are considered antique (when in the right range, I guess) - .44-40, .38 and .32 are not, no matter how old.
3. The difference between "antique" and possibly "prohibited" can be a mere decimal or a few letters: take the Remington Double Deringer for example - if it has the two-line barrel address on it, it's antique, if it has a single line, it's prohibited. The two are identical in every other respect except that one was definitely made before 1898, the other may have been made as late as 1912 or so... I can give you a dozen more examples - take the iconic S&W Model 1 - it's prohibited because it is chambered for .22. The Model 1 1/2 in .32 rim fire is antique, but the same in .32 center fire is prohibited.
Oh, Canada...

Attached Images

	SW50831 1.jpg (68.9 KB, 101 views)
	SW50831 2.jpg (69.5 KB, 98 views)
	SW50831 3.jpg (48.8 KB, 83 views)
	SW50831 4.jpg (72.8 KB, 83 views)
	SW50831 5.jpg (26.8 KB, 67 views)

If you mean Ed Corbett, I have asked him, too. He does not have any records to indicate definitely that this one came off the floor before January 1, 1898. My only hope (ever) is to find a higher serial number gun which was definitely sold or owned by someone before January 1, 1898, and has documentation to that effect. In the meantime I will keep it as restricted (doesn't matter very much to me), and perhaps one day I will have to sell it back into the US as an antique. Up here the price difference is at least 50% between a restricted gun and an equivalent quality antique.

That's a pretty one!

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

I won't beat it to death; all the information is pretty much covered in the posts, but if the frame is pre-1898, it is most definitely antique, no matter the assembly or ship date. The .44 S&W cartridge is also on the obsolete caliber list. If the cops are hassling the OP, they're either ignorant of their own laws, or just engaging in some "let's screw this guy over" exercise. PS: forgot to mention, what a BEAUTIFUL pistol!

That is a beautiful example !

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Randy

I'm not sure if you're going to have much luck, from some factory letters I've seen the last ones to ship out in 1897 are around the ~35,000-36,000 mark


Here's a letter of 36025 shipped Oct 1897

SMITH & WESSON .44 D. A. FIRST MODEL SHIPPED TO W. C.SCOTT & SONS , ENGLAND for sale


Here's a letter of 35388 shipped Oct 1897

Smith & Wesson .44 Double Action Top Break 1897 London

Thank you for trying. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the 36xxx range is not disputed by the RCMP. When it gets over 50xxx they become "sticky"... I need to find one with a 51000-plus number which was shipped or somehow documented to have existed before January 1 1898.

Welp you might be in a pickle, someone on this canadian firearms forum states that the canadian cops draw the cutoff for pre-1898 at 42,000. But apparently you can call and ask?
CanadianGunNutz.com

Thanks for the referal. I will see what they have to say. I have had several pieces of the same model approved, with serial numbers much higher than 42000, but not over 50000. Maybe there is hope...

Look what we have here old man wesson



CanadianGunNutz.com

I'm on it! Looks like my persistence may have paid off. Let's see what the good folks at the Technical Division have to say...
Thank you all for taking on my challenge!

Greetings! I have a newly acquired S&W Mod.3 in .44 Russian. I was sort of hoping that the serial number would be higher than yours since it came with the RCMP letter giving it antique status and that would have given you some creds with the firearms folks. Alas, mine is a very early run (4 digit serial), so I can't help you there. Hopefully the information you picked up off Canadian Gunnutz will allow to put this bed once an for all.

To the OP. Thanks for giving us a taste of what to expect in the near future.

And for me in NY, ALL SAAs have to be shipped to my local FFL.

Hello, all who took part in this discussion.
Last update - a fellow collector in my neck of the woods has not just one, but TWO DA first models in the 51,000 and 53,000 serial range, and he has the approval letters from the RCMP!! So, I submitted his copies and asked politely to be given the same consideration for my gun.
I have not heard back from them yet. I'm sure they're thinking about it...

I will let you know.

YAAY! I just received my antique letter for SN 50831!! I'm going to frame this one. Thank you all for your input and assistance. It sure paid off. RCMP Technical Division does consider alternative evidence occasionally.